ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe

Locked
Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm

The UK Government has explicitly acknowledged that it has been breaching the rights of Irish Nationals born in Northern Ireland who do not identify themselves as British Citizen.

The Government has finally agreed to change family reunion for these categories of people.

So it seems like good news for people of Northern Ireland.

Interestingly the Government says it will not discriminate between people who identify as British or Irish.

It follows that one part of the UK will essentially have different rules to other part of the UK. Once set of British Citizen will have more rights than others.

Very interesting.
The New Decade, New Approach Deal wrote:
Delivering on our commitments

The Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement


13. The Government has reviewed the consistency of its family migration arrangements,
taking into account the letter and spirit of the Belfast Agreement and recognising that
the policy should not create incentives for renunciation of British citizenship by those
citizens who may wish to retain it.

14. The Government will change the rules governing how the people of Northern Ireland
bring their family members to the UK. This change will mean that eligible family
members of the people of Northern Ireland will be able to apply for UK immigration
status on broadly the same terms as the family members of Irish citizens in the UK.


15. This immigration status will be available to the family members of all the people of
Northern Ireland, no matter whether they hold British or Irish citizenship or both, no
matter how they identify.
I must qualify this by saying that this change is dependent on whether the Stormont parties sign the proposed agreement.

This is really disgraceful. Essentially the British Government is saying it will not give effect to it international treaties unless another agreement is reached. Essentially it is using it as a bargaining chip. So difficult to make sense of.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Richard W » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:40 pm

Obie wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm
The UK Government has explicitly acknowledged that it has been breaching the rights of Irish Nationals born in Northern Ireland who do not identify themselves as British Citizen.
I thought the courts had already ruled that those who identify as Irish should not be treated as British citizens against their will, without the need to pay to renounce British nationality.
Obie wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm
The Government has finally agreed to change family reunion for these categories of people.
The main change is called 'Brexit'. They will eventually have no more rights than the British of Britain or the Irish of the Republic.
Obie wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm
It follows that one part of the UK will essentially have different rules to other part of the UK. Once set of British Citizen will have more rights than others.
I tried to find a definition of the 'people of Northern Ireland'. One definition I cam across was those who have a right to live there indefinitely. Now that makes the scope of the new rules very interesting.
Obie wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm
This is really disgraceful. Essentially the British Government is saying it will not give effect to it international treaties unless another agreement is reached. Essentially it is using it as a bargaining chip. So difficult to make sense of.
Isn't there an obligation on the politicians of Northern Ireland to form a devolved government? This looks like a sweetener for loyalists.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10974
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by secret.simon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:55 pm

Richard W wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:40 pm
Obie wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:24 pm
It follows that one part of the UK will essentially have different rules to other part of the UK. Once set of British Citizen will have more rights than others.
I tried to find a definition of the 'people of Northern Ireland'. One definition I cam across was those who have a right to live there indefinitely. Now that makes the scope of the new rules very interesting.
One interpretation that I found on Twitter is that “people of Northern Ireland” will be restricted to people born to either British, Irish or settled people in Northern Ireland, which is apparently the definition in the Good Friday Agreement.

So British citizens from other parts of the UK will not be able to create an internal SS route, by visiting NI and having their family members immigrate under those rules and then return to GB.

As to the bit about different rules for different British citizens, Surinder Singh and Lounes has already created different rules for different subsets of British citizens. So not really anything new.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:27 pm

I think the position in Lounes and Surinder Singh are very clear in law, the Obligations are imposed by EU law, which is supreme to UK law.

The position in relation to Northern Ireland is a bit different. This is a Change that will be imposed by a British Government, treating it citizens from different parts of its territory differently, by its own choice.

Whatever views one may hold as to the right of Britain to be in Ireland, under international Law Northern Ireland is considered as a British Province, so my view or anyone else's on that matter, does not change that fact. A' person in the 6 counties of the North of Ireland, cannot be treated differently from one in England, unless the Government was to say, that only those that Identify themselves as Irish and hold Irish passport will qualify. If a loyalist do not consider themselves as British, why or how should they be considered as an Irish, and given family reunification rights under EU law. These people detest Irish and anything Irish related, it seems odd to me that having considered themselves British, they will be given Irish rights.

I understand the worries of the UK. The Union is on borrowed times. I have doubt that there will not be a border poll in Norther Ireland before the centenary in 2021, and i am of the view that Ireland may well opt to reunite with the republic. The Government has to find ways not to irritate to upset Nationalist. At the same time they are trying to save face, and not be be seen as giving advantage to Nationalist over nationalist.

It will not work, the government will face lots of challenges.

Furthermore, the government will be getting a rude awakening. Whatever they do and whether they like it or not, there will be a border poll in Northern Ireland before it Centenary next year.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Richard W » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:18 pm

Obie wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:27 pm
Whatever views one may hold as to the right of Britain to be in Ireland, under international Law Northern Ireland is considered as a British Province, so my view or anyone else's on that matter, does not change that fact. A' person in the 6 counties of the North of Ireland, cannot be treated differently from one in England, unless the Government was to say, that only those that Identify themselves as Irish and hold Irish passport will qualify. If a loyalist do not consider themselves as British, why or how should they be considered as an Irish, and given family reunification rights under EU law. These people detest Irish and anything Irish related, it seems odd to me that having considered themselves British, they will be given Irish rights.
And this results in the anomaly of British and Irish rights being different. It's a matter of picking the anomaly.

The legal position is that the British people of Northern Ireland can acquire Irish rights, by taking the repugnant steps of applying for an Irish passport if they are not already Irish citizens, and renouncing British citizenship.

Of course, different British citizens already have different rights with respect to the British Islands.

A symmetric solution would be, for the EEA Regulations, to treat all nationals of EEA states who have ever been British as though they were still British. Is this definitely prohibited by EU law? (I expect that the answer is that it is, but I don't know that it is.)

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10974
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by secret.simon » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:57 am

Richard W wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:18 pm
A symmetric solution would be, for the EEA Regulations, to treat all nationals of EEA states who have ever been British as though they were still British. Is this definitely prohibited by EU law? (I expect that the answer is that it is, but I don't know that it is.)
Wasn't that the losing argument in Lounes?
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Richard W » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:12 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:57 am
Richard W wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:18 pm
A symmetric solution would be, for the EEA Regulations, to treat all nationals of EEA states who have ever been British as though they were still British. Is this definitely prohibited by EU law? (I expect that the answer is that it is, but I don't know that it is.)
Wasn't that the losing argument in Lounes?
No. The losing argument was that having another EEA nationality didn't count if you were British. This argument would be that you would have to actively exercise treaty rights outside one's country of origin to be able to invoke them in one's country of origin, and that renouncing local nationality but not EU citizenship is dismissed as an artificial ploy. (Such a dismissal would be a bit unfair for a part-time drug dealer.)

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:28 pm

Richard W wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:18 pm

A symmetric solution would be, for the EEA Regulations, to treat all nationals of EEA states who have ever been British as though they were still British. Is this definitely prohibited by EU law? (I expect that the answer is that it is, but I don't know that it is.)
What is the point in advancing argument or suggestion, you know are inconsistent with EU.

As way back as 1982, in the case of Mosan and Jhanjan, the court has ruled that EU law applies in all cases where a matter is not wholly internal to a Member state. Therefore the British Government can define a British citizen however it likes, the fact remains, that if a British citizen's case is not purely internal to the UK, and has features of EU law, then EU law will apply irrespective of how the UK chooses to define it citizens.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Richard W » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:01 am

Obie wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:28 pm
As way back as 1982, in the case of Mosan and Jhanjan, the court has ruled that EU law applies in all cases where a matter is not wholly internal to a Member state.
In the judgement I find:
16 IT FOLLOWS THAT THE TREATY PROVISIONS ON FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT FOR WORKERS AND THE RULES ADOPTED TO IMPLEMENT THEM CANNOT BE APPLIED TO CASES WHICH HAVE NO FACTOR LINKING THEM WITH ANY OF THE SITUATIONS GOVERNED BY COMMUNITY LAW .

17 SUCH IS UNDOUBTEDLY THE CASE WITH WORKERS WHO HAVE NEVER EXERCISED THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT WITHIN THE COMMUNITY .
From reading that paragraph 17, it appears that the expedient of an Irish-British dual national who has always resided in the UK renouncing British nationality so as to allow his non-EEA family members to join him has no basis in EU law. He is merely exploiting a loophole in the transposition of the directive to British law! (Just possibly he could counter-argue that de jure he lost his special rights as an Irishman when he re-entered the UK from outside the CTA, so he must be exercising freedom of movement.)

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Richard W » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:02 am

Obie wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:28 pm
As way back as 1982, in the case of Mosan and Jhanjan, the court has ruled that EU law applies in all cases where a matter is not wholly internal to a Member state.
In the judgement I find:
16 IT FOLLOWS THAT THE TREATY PROVISIONS ON FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT FOR WORKERS AND THE RULES ADOPTED TO IMPLEMENT THEM CANNOT BE APPLIED TO CASES WHICH HAVE NO FACTOR LINKING THEM WITH ANY OF THE SITUATIONS GOVERNED BY COMMUNITY LAW .

17 SUCH IS UNDOUBTEDLY THE CASE WITH WORKERS WHO HAVE NEVER EXERCISED THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT WITHIN THE COMMUNITY .
From reading that paragraph 17, it appears that the expedient of an Irish-British dual national who has always resided in the UK renouncing British nationality so as to allow his non-EEA family members to join him has no basis in EU law. He is merely exploiting a loophole in the transposition of the directive to British law! (Just possibly he could counter-argue that de jure he lost his special rights as an Irishman when he re-entered the UK from outside the CTA, so he must be exercising freedom of movement.)

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:36 am

The UK government has made clear committments to Northern Ireland, to respect the Identity its residents wishes to adopt.

Therefore if an Irish woman born in Northern Ireland want to be treated as such, then a British Government must respect its international obligations and treaties and give effect to that.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 10974
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Northern Ireland-born British citizens win EU citizenship rights

Post by secret.simon » Thu May 14, 2020 3:37 pm

The Guardian: Northern Ireland-born British citizens win EU citizenship rights
All British and Irish citizens born in Northern Ireland will be be treated as EU citizens for immigration purposes, the government has announced after a landmark court case involving a Derry woman over the residency rights of her US-born husband.
...
After several unsuccessful legal challenges, Ireland’s foreign minister, Simon Coveney, took the case up saying it raised concerns that the British immigration law had not been updated to enshrine the GFA.
...
It means that British citizens in Northern Ireland will automatically have more rights than their counterparts in England, Wales and Scotland, who will still have to spend thousands of pounds going through the strict immigration route for non-EU or non-EEA spouses with no guarantee of success.

However it is only a temporary boon as any third country national who wishes to apply for settled status will only have until June 2021 to do so. This is the date the EU settlement scheme closes.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Thu May 14, 2020 4:08 pm

This unreliable goverment has managed to fulfil on its promises to the citizens of Northern Ireland.

From the 4th August 2020 Irish and certain British citizens resident in Northern Ireland will be able to take advantage of Appendix EU for their family members.

The scope of the Domestic Violence provision has also been extended to Durable partners and other family members of EU national, whose relationship ended as a result of domestic violence.

I shall deal with that in another thread when i find time.

Of interest also, is the fact that the government has also made provision for submissions of paper settlement application via email. This will apply to EU paper settlement applications which have essentially been suspended lately.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _PRINT.pdf
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Br28016
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:28 pm
Mood:
Ireland

Re: Northern Ireland-born British citizens win EU citizenship rights

Post by Br28016 » Thu May 14, 2020 6:20 pm

Seen the link else where and been trying to track sone more detail on it.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _PRINT.pdf

Interesting in that definition is born in Northern Ireland and guessing that means that as I'm in that category can now apply for the eu settlement scheme and get wife and step children who arrived covered under it which makes life a lot easier.

Quick scan of rules makes me think I can do application for step children as they are dependent on me and get them immediate settled status. Assuming wife who arrived here a year ago on spouse visa would get pre settled status.

Only question I have over this one is whether there are any drawbacks to going this route as opposed to normal spouse visa route. Would we lose the year and a bit of status in UK ? And am I missing something.

Think with this route could get wife claiming the child benefit instead of me which would get her NI credits instead of me which is big plus as she is not currently working.

Prospect
Newly Registered
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:03 am
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Prospect » Sat May 16, 2020 10:37 am

I have a question, so what happens to those that have previously renounced their British citizenship in order to take the EEA route? Is their renounciation now void? And effectively remain British citizens if they choose to? Or would they have to reapply to the home office to void the renounciation?

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Sat May 16, 2020 11:08 am

Only a section 13 application will be available to such people.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/13

They cannot reapply to void anything as the renunciation was lawfully done.

They can only apply for registration.

Any child born to that person overseas in the period between the renunciation and a successful registration, will not be a British citizen.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

JB007
- thin ice -
Posts: 1745
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:14 pm

Re: Northern Ireland-born British citizens win EU citizenship rights

Post by JB007 » Sat May 16, 2020 6:27 pm

Br28016 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 6:20 pm
Assuming wife who arrived here a year ago on spouse visa would get pre settled status.

Only question I have over this one is whether there are any drawbacks to going this route as opposed to normal spouse visa route. Would we lose the year and a bit of status in UK ? And am I missing something.

Think with this route could get wife claiming the child benefit instead of me which would get her NI credits instead of me which is big plus as she is not currently working.
As those on pre-settled status can't have benefits, I assume you will have to claim the Child Benefit until she gets settled status, or she works and contibutes to her state pension by paying NICs - if there is still a state pension in it's present form whenever she reaches age 67/68.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Obie » Sat May 16, 2020 6:36 pm

People on pre-settled status are permitted to claim benefits if their family member has a right of residence.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Br28016
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:28 pm
Mood:
Ireland

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by Br28016 » Mon May 18, 2020 5:42 pm

That was my understanding of pre-settled status. I think that route offers significant advantages over the current spouse visa route and dont think there us a loss of credit for time in UK. Ie shoukd be able to apply for settled status at the point of 5 years after arriving in UK which was a concern as wife would have been here for about 18 months in August.

Think rules are such that step children would quality for settled status immediately as think that test is done against me and I've been in uk since birth although not worried about that as looking at adoption of them which solves their status immediately after that.

Can't think of any disadvantages to going this route compared to spouse visa so interested if anyone can think of any.

mccann1984
Newly Registered
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:00 pm

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by mccann1984 » Wed May 20, 2020 5:05 pm

Hi,
I am hoping somebody could explain this a little further for me. I am Northern Irish with both British and Irish citizenship - currently living in Canada with my Canadian wife. The article states that applications would be open from 24th August but only those who are living in the country by December 31st would be eligible.
To me, that doesn't seem like a long time to apply, get processed, passport sent back to canada and then travel?

Andy

vinny
Moderator
Posts: 32757
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:58 pm

Re: GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Post by vinny » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:40 pm

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Locked
cron