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I re-entered with expired Family Permit (non-VISA national)

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

hellrose
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I re-entered with expired Family Permit (non-VISA national)

Post by hellrose » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:17 am

I thought I'd share my story because a lot of people are hesitant about travelling without a Family Permit or Residence Card (as I was) simply because we don't know what to expect.

Background: I had received a Family Permit previously but it had expired 9 months ago. I'd started the process of applying for a Residence Card but when I asked for my passports back the whole package was returned with a letter stating I didn't have enough evidence, so no CoA.

I travelled to Canada alone and returned after two weeks.
I had my passport, a copy of my husband's German passport, our marriage certificate, and two bank statements (his and mine) for proof of address.
I stated clearly that I was seeking to enter as an EEA spouse.
(This is important because they could give you a tourist stamp otherwise.)

The border officer was initially a little hostile, questioning why I had remained in the country when my Family Permit expired so long ago. He seemed to think that I had over-stayed. I explained to him that I was entitled to be in the country as long as my husband was exercising treaty rights.

He then took all my documents and handed me a piece of paper that stated that the documents were being held. He asked for my husband's phone number so I gave it to him. He said he needed to check with his superior and left his booth. After about 10 minutes he returned and stamped my passport with a 6 month leave to enter. He seemed almost apologetic for his confusion earlier.
My husband was never called.

I think if more people exercised their freedoms they would be much harder to take away. I myself regret having gone through the family permit process the first time around (and providing way too many unnecessary documents) when I really didn't need to, I encourage others that are applying for FP to question their applications as well. :)

p.s. Thank you Jambo for your replies to my questions in previous posts
Last edited by hellrose on Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:58 am, edited 4 times in total.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:19 pm

As this is related to a discussion in a parallel thread - I wonder - did you have a return ticket from the UK? Did the airline staff in Canada raise any concern of you flying one-way (the return leg) to the UK without some kind of visa (I know that Canadian don't need a visa to visit the UK but it clear you don't go there to visit as you don't have a return flight booked)?

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:51 pm

You can check into an international flight from Toronto by scanning your passport at the automated check in kiosk. Then it is checked again before the security screening. And then again before getting on the plane. Usually they are interested in only the bio-page.

It might be that UK-destination flights also have a contracted screening firm checking visa and entry stuff, but I do not remember that.

Good story! Thanks for sharing it.

hellrose
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Post by hellrose » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:51 pm

Yes I had a return flight returning to the UK, I was never questioned in regards to my motives for flying.
I checked in online for Air Canada.

EDIT: Having read Jambo's question again, no I didn't have another flight booked to Canada. Just the return flight to UK.
Last edited by hellrose on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

habibcs
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Location: England

Possibility with the visa-national?

Post by habibcs » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 pm

1) Can the same scenario be possible with the visa-national?
or
2) Can the same scenario be possible with the visa-national with resident visa of an EEA country other than UK?

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Re: Possibility with the visa-national?

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:27 pm

habibcs wrote:1) Can the same scenario be possible with the visa-national?
or
2) Can the same scenario be possible with the visa-national with resident visa of an EEA country other than UK?
A visa national will most likely be denied boarding.

Punjab
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Re: Possibility with the visa-national?

Post by Punjab » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:22 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
habibcs wrote:1) Can the same scenario be possible with the visa-national?
or
2) Can the same scenario be possible with the visa-national with resident visa of an EEA country other than UK?
A visa national will most likely be denied boarding.
Its always a pain in the airport as check in agents don't know the stuff mostly. you might be better if yoyu travel by car and ask visa on port. otherise let the airline companies ring ho from your country.

nico2185
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hi there can somebody help me

Post by nico2185 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:03 am

hi there nice to hear that you manage to come back here in uk without visa,,congrats
i just want to ask in my case im from philippines formed with a civil partnership with belgian nationality setting up a business we have a accountant dealing with his business regarding hmrc and vat and all sort if that possible to go have vacation in philippines and buy a return ticket to uk and just show my civil partnership certificate tax return vat business account statement and bank statement and same address when i come back to uk without visa do you thing there will be no problem?

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Re: hi there can somebody help me

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:54 am

nico2185 wrote:hi there nice to hear that you manage to come back here in uk without visa,,congrats
i just want to ask in my case im from philippines formed with a civil partnership with belgian nationality setting up a business we have a accountant dealing with his business regarding hmrc and vat and all sort if that possible to go have vacation in philippines and buy a return ticket to uk and just show my civil partnership certificate tax return vat business account statement and bank statement and same address when i come back to uk without visa do you thing there will be no problem?
Visa national - visa required. Get a residence card first or renew family permit if expired.

portuguesecitizen
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Post by portuguesecitizen » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:23 am

Excellent post, thanks to share it!

hellrose
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Post by hellrose » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:07 pm

I'd like to add that since then I've travelled twice outside UK without Family Permit / Residence Card / CoA. I had to do this because I had to travel for work unfortunately.

Each time I re-entered they renewed the stamp.
Both times I got a lot of questions and they gave me a rather hard time in the lines of "why have you not applied for a residence card", I think mainly because I was going in and out so much.
But eventually they both gave me leave to enter.
EDIT: It was not a 'leave to enter', it was a Stamp 1A.

Re-applying for the RC this week! Good luck to me!
Last edited by hellrose on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:16 pm

hellrose wrote:I'd like to add that since then I've travelled twice outside UK without Family Permit / Residence Card / CoA. I had to do this because I had to travel for work unfortunately.

Each time I re-entered they renewed the stamp.
Both times I got a lot of questions and they gave me a rather hard time in the lines of "why have you not applied for a residence card", I think mainly because I was going in and out so much.
But eventually they both gave me leave to enter.
They did not give you "leave to enter". That is a domestic immigration concept and does not apply to EU citizens or their family. That they thought they gave it to you suggests they misunderstood the law.

You are a spouse of an EU citizen. You have a legal right to be in the UK if your German spouse is working there. End of story.

Q: "Why have you not applied for a Residence Card"
A: "Because it is entirely optional and some might consider it a bit stupid to even bother. Why are you wasting your time with silly questions?"

hellrose
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Post by hellrose » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:49 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
hellrose wrote:I'd like to add that since then I've travelled twice outside UK without Family Permit / Residence Card / CoA. I had to do this because I had to travel for work unfortunately.

Each time I re-entered they renewed the stamp.
Both times I got a lot of questions and they gave me a rather hard time in the lines of "why have you not applied for a residence card", I think mainly because I was going in and out so much.
But eventually they both gave me leave to enter.
They did not give you "leave to enter". That is a domestic immigration concept and does not apply to EU citizens or their family. That they thought they gave it to you suggests they misunderstood the law.

You are a spouse of an EU citizen. You have a legal right to be in the UK if your German spouse is working there. End of story.

Q: "Why have you not applied for a Residence Card"
A: "Because it is entirely optional and some might consider it a bit stupid to even bother. Why are you wasting your time with silly questions?"
Hmmm I see...
I believe this is the 1A stamp though that says "Leave to enter the United kingdom is hereby given for..."

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:15 pm

The stamp can actually say whatever, and it may be that Stamp 1A does say that. But you entered on the basis of the European rules.

Are you Canadian?

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:20 am

This is stamp Code 1A (see comprehensive guidance page 40). It says Leave to enter as this is the only suitable stamp they got to use (which is a UK immigration rules stamp).

Mr. Ali
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EEA2 Delays

Post by Mr. Ali » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:25 am

Hello All

I have signed a petition against the delays of EEA2 applications. Please sign this petition by clicking the link below and ask all your friends and family member whoever been a victim of the system.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40133


Appreciate your time and effort

Thanks

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Re: EEA2 Delays

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:16 pm

Mr. Ali wrote:I have signed a petition against the delays of EEA2 applications. Please sign this petition by clicking the link below and ask all your friends and family member whoever been a victim of the system.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40133
I truly hope you are not spaming a bunch of unrelated conversations!

1878
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Post by 1878 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:49 am

My wife (Visa national) has a similar issue but the Norwegian embassy refuse to issue her with a Schengen visa beyond the date of the EEA FP expiry date.

Is that allowed? We will be traveling together and I am exercising treaty rights so that means she is allowed to re-enter UK regardless of the expiry on her EEA FP. They blame on their computers and claim they cannont enter dates manually. They have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever. Very annoying.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:09 pm

1878 wrote:My wife (Visa national) has a similar issue but the Norwegian embassy refuse to issue her with a Schengen visa beyond the date of the EEA FP expiry date.

Is that allowed? We will be traveling together and I am exercising treaty rights so that means she is allowed to re-enter UK regardless of the expiry on her EEA FP. They blame on their computers and claim they cannont enter dates manually. They have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever. Very annoying.
Complain loudly. That is very incorrect!

You can even just tell them that you are not certain if you will even return to the UK: if things work out really super well in Norway during your visit you will just stay and work.

sierra
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Post by sierra » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:40 pm

thats right they got no right to ask whether you and your spouse will e coming back to uk as eu national if you decid you can noth live in norway or any member state for 3 months no req.
you you want to stay over 3 months you need to be employed ,self employed or self sufficient.
for eu family member there are different rules .

1878
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Post by 1878 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:15 am

For the record I am a Norwegian citizen and we have received COA for her RC. Does this change anything?

Who and where can I complain? I have sent emails to UDI (Immigration) in Norway and Solvit in the UK.

The embassy will not listen to me whatsoever.

1878
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Post by 1878 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:33 am

This is getting funnier.

I called the embassy and I have this on tape. They said if my wife is staying in the UK beyond the 22nd of December she is staying here illegally.

I have contact with Solvit UK now and they will file a complaint for me. Might also contact a solicitor.

Reply from Norwegian Embassy: translated from google:

Hey,
 
As we have explained to you on the phone and when you were here to apply for a visa: You have misunderstood the rules. To cut and paste sections do not solve this problem. Unfortunately we are not able to issue a Schengen visa for a person who does not have a valid residence permit in the UK, ie a sticker in your passport or a valid residence card. This is in line with other Schengen embassies and the Schengen acquis.
 
If you read the rules that you have copied below exactly, you see that a family member of an EEA member can not be denied access to the UK if they have 1) a valid passport and 2) a residence permit (EEA family permit). A valid passport is not enough in itself.
 
If your wife wants a visa to Norway, while planning to return to the UK, her residency in Britain needs to be renewed.
 
We may also disclose that this is something we work with every day, we joined the Schengen meetings with other Schengen embassies and we are familiar with the rules. You have now received clear answers from us both pr. telephone and e-mail and when you were here in person. We expect to certify the case as closed.
 
Regards
Consular Section

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:12 am

Raise a fuss. And you are right it is funny. They do not understand the law, and your job is to quietly politely educate them.

You might call their attention to https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27885818/UK/le ... reeEEA.pdf

Did you get your "Reply from Norwegian Embassy" as an email or as a letter?

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:03 pm

I believe the Schengen visa is less of a worry. You should be more worried how your visa national wife would board a flight with an expired FP. The CoA is good to enter the UK if you can get to the border but is not accepted by airlines to board a flight (unless you manage to convince them on the ground).

1878
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Post by 1878 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Raise a fuss. And you are right it is funny. They do not understand the law, and your job is to quietly politely educate them.

You might call their attention to https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27885818/UK/le ... reeEEA.pdf

Did you get your "Reply from Norwegian Embassy" as an email or as a letter?
Thank you very much for this document. I will send it to them and ask what they make of it, hehe.

Yes, this was as an email.

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