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Metock case and Singh - return to the UK & residence Car

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

SRAQAI
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Metock case and Singh - return to the UK & residence Car

Post by SRAQAI » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:58 pm

Hi All,

Some here know about my case... and issues that I have had with France granting my husband an entry visa, which after a long song and dance, he got in the end (after 2 years trying!) ... im UK Citizen, about to move to France in order to become self employed. My husband will be joining me, however, he can't stay in France for too long, because there is a course in the UK which he wants to enrol in. I will be continuing to do business in France, although I want to *live* in the UK. My question is:

Once my husband has spent a minimal amount of time with me in France (about a month), and enters the UK with me under Surinder Singh, his stamps in this passport will not show that he has spent 3-6 months in France. I know that under Surinder Singh, it is ME, the one excersing treaty rights that has to show that I have been doing so for around 3-6 months. But does my husband technically HAVE to be with me in France? When he returns to the UK, can he apply for a residence card, using Metock: i.e he doesnt have to have been resident in EU, in order to benefit from EU treaty rights, as long as the EU Citizens (me) has excerised them... is this correct?

I think this is right, from what I have read.. I just need the confirmation of my train of thoughts...

Thanks! :)

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Hi, great to hear that your husband got his visa (I remember the saga).

The UK's conditions for Singh are specified in regulation 9 of the immigration regulations. The UK will expect your husband to have applied for an EEA family permit before comming to the UK.
Family members of United Kingdom nationals
9.—(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who
is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an
EEA national.
(2) The conditions are that—
(a) the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed
person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and
(b) if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the
parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil
partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national
returned to the United Kingdom.
(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the
United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for
the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

SRAQAI
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Post by SRAQAI » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:09 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Hi, great to hear that your husband got his visa (I remember the saga).

The UK's conditions for Singh are specified in regulation 9 of the immigration regulations. The UK will expect your husband to have applied for an EEA family permit before comming to the UK.
Family members of United Kingdom nationals
9.—(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who
is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an
EEA national.
(2) The conditions are that—
(a) the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed
person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and
(b) if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the
parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil
partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national
returned to the United Kingdom.
(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the
United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for
the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.


Hi Emillie :) thanks so much for your response.

Yes, we shud have no problems in fulfilling regulation 9 .... We basically want to rely on the 'grey' area in regards to how long me and my husband stays in France, although some say it shud be 3-6 months, there is no 'rule'. I will be in a self employed capacity for about a month in France, and hubby will be with me there...and then we will both move back to the UK under surinder singh. Because we will be moving before the usual 3-6 months, we will not be applying for a EEA Family Permit, because of the chances if refusal. I will, however have evidence that I am self employed in Paris to show to border gaurds on the Calais to Dover crossing and my husband will not have a French residency card and doesnt need one, as per METOCK. Now, the only thing that will go against us is me not having being economically active in France for at least 3-6 month - although this is not a rule stated anywhere, hence relying on this grey area with border gaurds. Would this work?

Happy Year New :)

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:32 am

SRAQAI wrote: ...and my husband will not have a French residency card and doesnt need one, as per METOCK...

...Would this work?

Happy Year New :)
If your husband is living in France for under three months then he is not obliged to apply for a residence card. I don't think Metock comes into it really.

If you satisfy regulation 9, then it will apply. Think carefully as to how you are going to evidence this.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:00 pm

This would probably be OK in Calsis but I would advise you to have a longer residence before moving back to the UK. You don't want to go into another 2 years battle with the HO for the sake of a couple of months.

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:23 pm

Jambo wrote:This would probably be OK in Calsis but I would advise you to have a longer residence before moving back to the UK. You don't want to go into another 2 years battle with the HO for the sake of a couple of months.
The longer one has lived in another member state, the more straightforward the application would be.

SRAQAI
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Post by SRAQAI » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:53 pm

Thanks so much to both of you for the advise.:)

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:35 am

Please have a read through http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/ This is basically about returning to your home member state after working in another member state

SRAQAI
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Post by SRAQAI » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:52 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Please have a read through http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... -a-worker/ This is basically about returning to your home member state after working in another member state
Reg 9 says

"(b) if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national returned to the United Kingdom."

My husbands Schengan visa is valid for 15 days on entry to France. I know that he will be still legal if he is with me here, but if for instances he does go back to Pakistan before his 15 days, and then after I spend 6-7 months in France doing business, can we still apply for the EEA Family Permit from British Embassy in Pakistan to join me directly in the UK? Or ishs 15 days with me not sufficient?

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:56 pm

I think you pushing it.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:18 pm

As long as you are legally in France, your husband can stay with you. His visa is only relevant for his initial entry, so 15 days is the same as 90 days.

I am confused as to why he would want to return instead of staying with you in France and starting your day-to-day life together. Note that he can also work in France starting right now. Or study.

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Post by SRAQAI » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:45 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: I am confused as to why he would want to return instead of staying with you in France and starting your day-to-day life together. Note that he can also work in France starting right now. Or study.
Simply finding a place to live. We are currently staying in a short term apartment, targeted to expat market and its costing us a fortune. Estate Agents wont speak to us unless we can freeze €20,000 or two years' worth of rent in a French bank account. We cannot open a bank account without an address. Husband cannot get his carte de sejour without an address. Private landlords hang up the phone on us when they realise we are not French (my French isnt great) .... Generally its very hard to settle here and husband may have to go back. He cant find a job without evidence of work and he cannot get that unless he applies for a carte de sejour... Which he cant without a long term address. We are not allowed to use the sbort term rental address as our primary mailing adddess. I am starting to think this was a vdry bad idea. Should have chosen Ireland. Never realised how much the French hated the English!!

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:41 pm

Husband cannot get his carte de sejour without an address.

Which he cant without a long term address. We are not allowed to use the sbort term rental address as our primary mailing adddess.
Who told you that this? Is it in writing? Have you contacted Solvit?

SRAQAI
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Post by SRAQAI » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:45 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
Husband cannot get his carte de sejour without an address.

Which he cant without a long term address. We are not allowed to use the sbort term rental address as our primary mailing adddess.
Who told you that this? Is it in writing? Have you contacted Solvit?
This is what we have been told in France at the Prefecture. You have to apply for the residency card from the prefecture closest to where you live and show proof of address.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:02 pm

So if I move to Paris and live in the Ritz (a very expensive hotel where Lady Di visited often), then I am not allowed to register with the local commune and get a Residence Card?

Don't think so!

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Post by SRAQAI » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:29 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:So if I move to Paris and live in the Ritz (a very expensive hotel where Lady Di visited often), then I am not allowed to register with the local commune and get a Residence Card?

Don't think so!
According to prefecture, we need a proof of address :(

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:26 am

SRAQAI wrote:According to prefecture, we need a proof of address :(
So you do not have any evidence at all of where you live? No receipt? Nothing?

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Post by frei » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:33 pm

Congrats Sraqai, I guess you are trying to settle in Paris? Or a suburb close to it? It might be so, why don't you try renting in a smaller town? Rental agreements are easy to secure and the market are always less competitive .

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Post by SRAQAI » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:05 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
SRAQAI wrote:According to prefecture, we need a proof of address :(
So you do not have any evidence at all of where you live? No receipt? Nothing?
We have hotel bookings... But they mentioned that they want to see a rental agreement or a utility bill or bank statement in our name. Things are very difficult here!!

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Post by SRAQAI » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:07 am

frei wrote:Congrats Sraqai, I guess you are trying to settle in Paris? Or a suburb close to it? It might be so, why don't you try renting in a smaller town? Rental agreements are easy to secure and the market are always less competitive .
We have tried everything. Anyone who is interested in renting to us, want us to either pay a years rent in advance or freeze €20,000 in a french acct :(

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Post by frei » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:12 am

Do you have preference as to where u would like to rent? Perhaps i could ask someone for you? Try leboncoin.fr

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:22 am

Have you contacted Solvit?

Also, did they refuse you in writing because of your lack of a long term lease? What exactly did they say?

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Post by tebee » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:03 pm

Where are you looking for houses and what are you looking for ?

There is ones available in this area ( Brittany) from €350-450 a month for smallish, OK but not luxurious houses - I rent out some of them !

You might get asked a few months in advance as you don't have a job or a french guarantor but a full year is unlikely.
“I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare: and I dare a little more as I grow older.

SRAQAI
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Post by SRAQAI » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:56 pm

frei wrote:Do you have preference as to where u would like to rent? Perhaps i could ask someone for you? Try leboncoin.fr
Thank you that's so kind of you. I've tried leboncoin and pap. Most of the people hang up on me when they realise I speak English, or 'not available' anymore :(

We've left France now :( its been too hard on us

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Post by SRAQAI » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:03 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Have you contacted Solvit?

Also, did they refuse you in writing because of your lack of a long term lease? What exactly did they say?
Well she was very excited when I showed her my British passport, seemed nice, until I showed her my husband's passport. I showed her a print out in French detailing our right and husbands under eu laws etc.... Blank face. She said this is fine but we need to have a place to live, with evidence before applying for a non eu spouse of eu citizen carte de sejour. I considered informing SOLVIT, but considering my terrible experience with them over the last two years, nothing would have been done to help us, I can almost 99.9% gaurantees that. UK solvit are not interested in standing up to rights of UK citizens and their spouses in eu.

We have left France now.... After spending more then £3000 in short and other expenses... accommodation and other expenses. I would strongly advise people NOT to go to France under this Directive. Especially if you look like a Muslim (I hate to say this, but my headscarf didn't help matters)

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