Northern Irish giving up British Citizenship

tigerram wrote:If you go through the process outlined, and check fees, you come to this:

https://visa-fees.homeoffice.gov.uk/y/p ... artnership

which is quite contradictory. I'm confused.

Anyway, yes you are right, nationality must be renounced first.

3 Select the visa type you would like to see fees for:
Family members of European Economic Area (EEA) and Swiss nationals

sp84 wrote:
1. By the end of 2015, I can apply for US Citizenship, and renounce my British Citizenship. YOU CAN RENOUNCE AT ANY TIME. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO US CITIZENSHIP.
2. As an Irish passport holder, I can apply for an EEA permit for my American wife in early 2016 (once I am no longer classed as British) - allowing her and I to move back to Northern Ireland. RIGHT; I DID EXACTLY THIS LAST YEAR.

Some questions:

1. When applying for the EEA permit - do I only have to do that for my wife? Or do I also need to apply for some sort of Visa/Permit for myself? Or can I just arrive in NI and live using my Irish passport? JUST ARRIVE, AS YOU WOULD ANYWAYS. I AM AN IRISH CITIZEN (EX-BRITISH) AND I DON'T NEED ANYTHING TO LIVE/WORK HERE. I DID APPLY FOR A REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE (ON FORM EEA1) LAST YEAR WHEN I STARTED WORKING. THIS WAS NOT NECESSARY, BUT I KNEW IT WOULD HELP SPEED UP MY PARTNER'S APPLICATION FOR A RESIDENCE CARD (WHICH IS ALSO ACTUALLY OPTIONAL). NOW, THIS REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE IS APPLIED FOR ON FORM EEA (QP) (SEE HERE: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... orm-eea-qp)

2. Will me taking US Citizenship restrict me in any way? COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT

3. We currently do not have any children - if we did have children between now and next year - would that affect the application in any way? Or would it not matter, as any children could get an Irish passport through me? IF THEY WERE BORN IN NI, THEY WOULD BE BORN WITH BOTH IRISH AND BRITISH CITIZENSHIP, JUST LIKE YOU WERE AS YOU ARE AN IRISH CITIZEN. THEY WOULD ALSO BE ELIGIBLE FOR US CITIZENSHIP. YOU REALLY SHOULD READ UP ON THE UK/IRISH CITIZENSHIP RULES (https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nat ... itizenship AND http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... tizenship/)

4. Did any of you lovely folks that went through the process, use a solicitor? Or did you do it all on your own? What would you recommend? I DID IT BY MYSELF. TOTALLY SIMPLE. I HAVE HEARD OF PEOPLE USING SOLICITORS BUT, TO BE HONEST, IT'S NOT NECESSARY UNLESS THEY REFUSE YOU FOR SOME REASON. GETTING A GP TO SIGN YOUR APPLICATION TO RENOUNCE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA AS, THAT WAY, THE HOME OFFICE CAN'T REALLY SAY YOU'RE NOT OF SOUND MIND. A FRIEND SIGNED MINE. RENUNCIATION: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality

5. How does the permit work in terms of an "expiration date" - for example, if I renounced my British Citizenship tomorrow - then applied for and got the EEA permit for my wife in 3/4 months time ... does the permit have to be used right away, or can we hang on to it and move back sometime next year? FIRSTLY, RENUNCIATION TAKES ABOUT 3 MONTHS, POSSIBLY LONGER. MINE TOOK JUST OVER 3 MONTHS. THERE WILL BE A 'VALID UNTIL' DATE ON THE EEA FAMILY PERMIT. YOU HAVE TO ENTER BEFORE THAT DATE (SHOULD BE 6 MONTHS AFTER THE DATE OF ISSUE). IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE EEA ACTUALLY EXPIRES AFTER YOUR WIFE HAS ENTERED THE UK. AFTER THAT SHE CAN APPLY FOR A RESIDENCE CARD: https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-resid ... d/overview.

6. This one is a little vague - but considering the recent election, and the news stories - when would be the best time for me to begin the process - with the ideal date of moving back home, Spring/Summer 2016. NO-ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE. BEAR IN MIND THE TIMESCALES ABOVE.

HOPE THIS HELPS A BIT. I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE OF THE NEED TO EXERCISE TREATY RIGHTS, E.G. BY WORKING, SELF-EMPLOYED, STUDYING (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE) OR SELF-SUFFICIENT (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE).

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:A US citizen is not required to get an EEA Family Permit before entering the UK. Not worth doing.

chaoclive wrote:

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:A US citizen is not required to get an EEA Family Permit before entering the UK. Not worth doing.

So, what would you advise them doing so that the American wife would be able to stay in the UK long term (legally, of course)?.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:

chaoclive wrote:

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:A US citizen is not required to get an EEA Family Permit before entering the UK. Not worth doing.

So, what would you advise them doing so that the American wife would be able to stay in the UK long term (legally, of course)?.

If she is married to you and she is covered by EU free movement law, then her free movement rights come directly from her relationship with you. Since she has a US passport, you can together board an airplane to any EU member state (including the UK) without first having to get a visa.

The UK makes clear that the EEA Family Permit is optional (though required for some people who can not get on the airplane first).

See also http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

chaoclive wrote:

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: If she is married to you and she is covered by EU free movement law, then her free movement rights come directly from her relationship with you. Since she has a US passport, you can together board an airplane to any EU member state (including the UK) without first having to get a visa.

The person asking the questions was SP84, a dual British/Irish citizen. Therefore, his US wife would not be covered by the Directive (living in a country of which you are a citizen etc etc). They can, definitely, go to any EU member state, including the UK, without having to get her a visa. However, their plan is to find a way to have her live in the UK with her (currently) dual citizen husband. He specifically asked about renunciation.

chaoclive wrote:The family permit is definitely optional, but good luck to them trying to get a bank account, national insurance number etc without it (possible; but not easy).

sp84 wrote:As far as I am aware, my wife cannot come with me to live in Northern Ireland, unless I am in a job earning 18k per year, for at least 6 months before applying for her to join me there. Hence why I am considering renouncing my British Citizenship - allowing me to enter the UK as an EU citizen (Irish) (with my wife in tow). Is this correct? THIS IS CORRECT; AS NOTED ABOVE, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID LAST YEAR

With my Irish passport, I know I can live with my wife in the South of Ireland quite easily (all we need is a place of residence) - but all my family ties and career opportunities/relationships are all in Belfast. That is why I would rather just go straight there. SAME REASON AS ME.

Also you mentioned the "NEED TO EXERCISE TREATY RIGHTS, E.G. BY WORKING, SELF-EMPLOYED, STUDYING (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE) OR SELF-SUFFICIENT (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE)." ... How could I fulfill this seeing as I have been living here in the US since 2012? ... I have a read about your experience in China, so I assumed you just did the same as what I am planning on doing. That is - you renounced citizenship in China, applied for the family permit for your partner (using your Irish Passport), then both arrived in Belfast together? Or is there more to it than that, in order to "exercise treaty rights"? YOU HAVE TO EXERCISE YOUR TREATY RIGHTS 3 MONTHS AFTER YOU ENTER THE UK. YOU HAVE 3 MONTHS INITIAL RIGHT TO RESIDE WITHOUT HAVING TO BE A QUALIFIED PERSON UNDER THE FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS DIRECTIVE (2004/38/EC).

You mentioned "good luck getting a bank account" without the family permit? - As far as I am aware, without the permit, I am unable to bring her to Belfast legally anyway. Plus I still have my bank account open with my own savings from before I moved to the US. WRONG: SHE, BEING AN AMERICAN, DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE ANY VISA TO ENTER THE UK, AS WAS POINTED OUT BY Directive/2004/38/EC IN A POST ABOVE. MY PARTNER IS CHINESE AND, AS SUCH, REQUIRED AN ENTRY VISA.

In terms of having children between now and when I move back - It was in relation to them being born here. If for example My wife had a child in March 2016 (here in the USA), and we planned on moving back to Belfast in June 2016 - would the child need to be included on the EEA application? Or would them being entitled to an Irish passport, make this irrelevant? IF YOU CHILD HAS ENTITLEMENT TO IRISH CITIZENSHIP, THEN THEY DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING. COULD YOU IMAGINE THE UK GOVERNMENT ASKING AN IRISH CITIZEN (ADULT OR CHILD) TO HAVE AN EEA FP TO ENTER NORTHERN IRELAND? HAHA.

Thanks a lot folks. These forums have been a fantastic source of information so far! Really appreciate it.

chaoclive wrote:Same deal: CAPS

sp84 wrote:As far as I am aware, my wife cannot come with me to live in Northern Ireland, unless I am in a job earning 18k per year, for at least 6 months before applying for her to join me there. Hence why I am considering renouncing my British Citizenship - allowing me to enter the UK as an EU citizen (Irish) (with my wife in tow). Is this correct? THIS IS CORRECT; AS NOTED ABOVE, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID LAST YEAR

With my Irish passport, I know I can live with my wife in the South of Ireland quite easily (all we need is a place of residence) - but all my family ties and career opportunities/relationships are all in Belfast. That is why I would rather just go straight there. SAME REASON AS ME.

Also you mentioned the "NEED TO EXERCISE TREATY RIGHTS, E.G. BY WORKING, SELF-EMPLOYED, STUDYING (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE) OR SELF-SUFFICIENT (WITH COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE)." ... How could I fulfill this seeing as I have been living here in the US since 2012? ... I have a read about your experience in China, so I assumed you just did the same as what I am planning on doing. That is - you renounced citizenship in China, applied for the family permit for your partner (using your Irish Passport), then both arrived in Belfast together? Or is there more to it than that, in order to "exercise treaty rights"? YOU HAVE TO EXERCISE YOUR TREATY RIGHTS 3 MONTHS AFTER YOU ENTER THE UK. YOU HAVE 3 MONTHS INITIAL RIGHT TO RESIDE WITHOUT HAVING TO BE A QUALIFIED PERSON UNDER THE FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS DIRECTIVE (2004/38/EC). IF YOU EXERCISE TREATY RIGHTS FROM WHEN YOU ARRIVE EVERYTHING WILL BE EXTREMELY EASY...FOR NOW AT LEAST. OUR PATH WAS SMOOTH.

You mentioned "good luck getting a bank account" without the family permit? - As far as I am aware, without the permit, I am unable to bring her to Belfast legally anyway. Plus I still have my bank account open with my own savings from before I moved to the US. WRONG: SHE, BEING AN AMERICAN, DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE ANY VISA TO ENTER THE UK, AS WAS POINTED OUT BY Directive/2004/38/EC IN A POST ABOVE. MY PARTNER IS CHINESE AND, AS SUCH, REQUIRED AN ENTRY VISA.

In terms of having children between now and when I move back - It was in relation to them being born here. If for example My wife had a child in March 2016 (here in the USA), and we planned on moving back to Belfast in June 2016 - would the child need to be included on the EEA application? Or would them being entitled to an Irish passport, make this irrelevant? IF YOU CHILD HAS ENTITLEMENT TO IRISH CITIZENSHIP, THEN THEY DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING. COULD YOU IMAGINE THE UK GOVERNMENT ASKING AN IRISH CITIZEN (ADULT OR CHILD) TO HAVE AN EEA FP TO ENTER NORTHERN IRELAND? HAHA.

Thanks a lot folks. These forums have been a fantastic source of information so far! Really appreciate it.

sp84 wrote:In relation to needing the family permit - I know that she can visit Northern Ireland without one, but I was referring to her to living and working there. I assume she NEEDS the EEA family permit in order to be able to do that? SHE DOES NOT NEED A FAMILY PERMIT AT ALL, FOR ANYTHING. IT IS OPTIONAL. YOU PROBABLY SHOULD READ THROUGH THIS IN DETAIL: https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/overview

Sorry for asking, but could you please elaborate a little on the "exercising of treaty rights"? WOULD TAKE LONGER THAN YOU SEARCHING ON GOOGLE. STARTER: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf

1. How does one do that? Through getting a job? THERE ARE 4 WAYS
2. What would be deemed as being self sufficient? OWN MONEY; NO GOVERNMENT FUNDS; COMPREHENSIVE MEDICAL INSURANCE
3. Is it me or my US wife that would have to do it (exercise treaty rights)? OF COURSE YOU, SHE HAS NO RIGHTS WITHOUT YOU BEING THERE. MOUNTAINS OF INFO ON IMMIGRATIONBOARDS AND https://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

The reason I am asking is because my ideal plan would be this - Moving back to Belfast in and around June of 2016. I would initially move in with family so we could find our feet. Due to my current savings (and living with family members), I would (financially speaking) get by just fine without working in July and August. With me being a teacher I may or may not find full time work for September 2016 - leaving me with subbing, which can be hit or miss. Would this qualify me as "exercising treaty rights"? ... I have absolutely no intention of just showing up and claiming job seekers or anything like that. I DON'T THINK SUBBING WOULD WORK AS IT'S NOT GUARANTEED. YOU COULD, HOWEVER, USE YOUR SAVINGS AND LIVE AS SELF-SUFFICIENT, BUT YOU WOULD NEED COMPREHENSIVE SICKNESS INSURANCE (WHICH I WILL REFER TO AS CSI FROM NOW ON).

Also, hypothetically, for e.g. lets say my wife and I have been living in Belfast for 2 years and I lose my job, would that put her right to stay in Belfast in Jeopardy? YES, IF YOU WERE RELYING ON BEING A WORKER, BUT NOT IF YOU WERE SELF-SUFFICIENT. ALSO, SURELY YOU WOULD JUST GET ANOTHER JOB? EEA RULES AREN'T QUITE AS HARSH AS UK ONES SO THERE ARE WAYS AROUND THIS

Finally, are there any restrictions/demands on my wife in terms of her employment? What I mean by that is - if she does not work, would she have to leave the UK? E.g. If I can support us both and her be a stay at home mum - surely that should be OK? NO-ONE CARES WHAT SHE DOES, HER BEING HERE IS DEPENDENT ON YOU

Sorry for pestering, its just that the last thing I would want, would be to get back home and be told that I then have to leave again. BETTER TO PLAN, OF COURSE. EVEN BETTER TO DELVE INTO THE WEBSITES I GAVE YOU ABOVE AND START UNDERSTANDING THE TERMINOLOGY BY YOURSELF.

Thank you chaoclive, you are a lifesaver! Ever since I found out about the UK financial requirements, my head has been a mess! DOESN'T HAVE TO BE. AT PRESENT, EVERYTHING IS QUITE EASY FOR DUAL CITIZENS; AT LEAST WE HAVE MORE OPTIONS. NOONE CAN COMMENT ABOUT THE FUTURE THO'

chaoclive wrote:OFF TO WORK...TO EXERCISE MY TREATY RIGHTS

sp84 wrote:Thank you chaoclive. With the time difference I have just arrived to work here in the states, so I will get a chance to check through those sites later today. Once I have read through them, if I have any more questions, do you mind me asking??? That does not mean I am just going to skim over them/not even read through them by the way haha

sp84 wrote:Ah OK! Thank you again! I don't think I have posted enough comments to qualify for PM privileges. Am I right in saying that I need 10 posts? Otherwise, yeah I would really appreciate the solicitor information! YES: 10 POSTS, I THINK...

You mentioned - "Bottom line: Irish people are a little different, but you can't be special and also claim exactly the same rights as the other EEA citizens at the same time. The source of these two different categories of rights is different: one is the UK laws (Irish people are viewed as settled etc) and the other is from EEA laws (treaty rights etc)." - Does this mean that as Irish citizen I can choose to enter with my wife as "Irish", as opposed to an European citizen? - I suppose that's where my confusion comes in. The idea of having a choice or not in how I enter Northern Ireland. HOW COULD YOU HAVE A CHOICE? YOU ARE AN IRISH CITIZEN, WHO IS, AT THE SAME TIME, A EUROPEAN. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT YOU HAVE IS THAT YOU COULD, IF YOU WISH, APPLY UNDER THE UK RULES (18600 ETC). BUT WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT? YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT NOW IF YOU MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. I WAS TRYING TO EMPHASIS THAT YOU SHOULDN'T THINK IN THAT WAY. YOU SHOULD BE THINKING 'I'M A EUROPEAN'; UNDER THE EEA RULES IRISH CITIZENSHIP DOESN'T REALLY GIVE YOU ANY SPECIAL RIGHTS BEYOND THOSE OF A LATVIAN OR A SPANIARD.

I have a few friends from the South and I have always just imagined that if one of them were married to an American, they could move to Northern Ireland no problem, without any restraints. Suppose it is not that simple. IT WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY SIMPLE FOR THEM, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE IRISH, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE EUROPEAN (AND NOT BRITISH). THEY WOULDN'T FACE ANY BARRIERS AT ALL AS THEY DON'T HAVE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP. I AM EXACTLY THE SAME NOW (AFTER RENUNCIATION) AS I AM IRISH ONLY.

With me being so far away from home, I keep seeing news stories everyday in relation to David Cameron and the EU referendum - today I saw they may propose that EU citizens must have a job in place before coming to the UK. So I'm getting twitchy! I suppose my nightmare scenario is this ... I renounce my British citizenship - the UK leaves the EU in the time it takes my paperwork to come through - the UK then loosens the financial requirement of 18,600k for British Citizens. Making it easier for British citizens to bring their non EU spouse to the UK ... While at the same time, making it harder for EU citizens to get in. AS AN IRISH CITIZEN, YOU WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY SETTLED IN THE UK. THEREFORE, YOU ARE ELIGIBLE TO APPLY UNDER THE UK RULES (I.E. 18600 EARNINGS ETC ETC). YOU COULD ALSO GO TO ANOTHER EU COUNTRY OR INDEED APPLY UNDER THE ROI DOMESTIC IMMIGRATION RULES (DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THESE). WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO RENOUNCE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP IF YOU WERE GOING THROUGH ANY OF THE DOMESTIC ROUTES.

In relation to the subbing - I suppose I should mention that one of the main reasons I am looking to move back home, is that over here, my degree does not carry the same value as back home. Hence why I have been so focused on it. If I were to just get another job back home - that would probably result in me having to give up teaching ... It's crazy to think that I can't just move back home, in order to use the degree that I got in the UK, in order to better my own life. YOU CAN; IT'S YOUR WIFE WHO CAN'T!

I know i keep saying this after every post, but thank you thank you thank you!!