Surinder Singh application from Spain

Hi all! I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding Surinder Singh

Here's the situation: I'm an American and I came to Spain in July of 2016 to take a one-month TEFL course. I met DH (British citizen) on the course; he had decided to teach English in this city in Spain because he has several family members living here already. I went back to the US but returned to Spain a few months later on a student visa and moved in with him. We got married in June 2018 we love it here, but we want to go to England because we're sick of teaching English and we want to be closer to his family.

Because we teach English, contracts are normally only for the school year (about Sept-June). Because of this, DH has been leasing the apartment since Aug 2016, but we have returned to the US/UK each summer to visit our families. DH's contracts are from Sept-Dec 2016, Mar-June 2017, Sept 2017-June 2018, and Oct 2018-June 2019. Also, we've only been working about 12 hours a week each (although this should be going up to about 16 each soon).

We haven't had the money to take Spanish lessons, but we're looking into it (my Spanish is decent but DH's isn't good ). We're also looking into volunteering at a local animal shelter to show further integration into the community.

Documents so far (translated into English):
- marriage certificate
- our passports
- photocopies of my student residency cards (valid from Dec 2016-2018) with our address on it
- both of our residency cards (his from Feb 2018 and mine from June 2018) with our address on it
- part-time work contracts for him (starting Sept 2016) and for me (starting January 2018)
- his most recent 6 payslips
- Spanish government letter showing how many days we've worked in Spain
- Spanish government certificate saying we've both been registered at this address since Mar 2017
- apartment lease with only his name on it
- letter from landlord saying that we both live here and for how long
- a few Spanish government letters sent to our address over past two years
- utilities: his name on gas bill since Mar 2017, mine on internet bill since Sept 2017
- bank accounts: his from Sept 2016, mine May 2017, closed his/turned mine into joint account June 2018 -> 6 months of bank statements from joint, and letters that show when we opened the other accounts??
- my private Spanish health insurance
- our cards showing registration at the local health center
- certificate of attendance from the TEFL course we met on
- library cards from local public library
- 10 pictures of us over the last two years in Spain with his local family and our friends, England, and the US
- cover letter explaining our situation/with table of contents of supporting documents

Questions:
1) Do you think the fact that there are gaps in DH's employment history will hurt our chances?
2) When should we apply? DH has a new contract starting Oct but he's been effectively contractless since June. Ideally, we'd like to be in England and have applied for my residency card before Brexit.
1) Do I need to add/remove anything from the list of supporting documents? Boarding passes from our travels together? Letters from local friends and family? How much is too much?
2) How do I organize the supporting documents (folders, binders, etc)? When do I submit them?
3) Once I'm in the UK, do I need to do the Surinder Singh application again to get a residency card? I'm a little bit confused about this process.
4) Can (and should) I get an EHIC?

bunnycookiequeen wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:07 pm

1) Do you think the fact that there are gaps in DH's employment history will hurt our chances?

Not an expert, but from the available information on the Surinder Singh route here https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh one could interpret that what hurts the most is appearing to have moved to the other EEA state just to apply via the Surinder Singh route, i.e. too little time spent there, and too recently. In your case, whilst it is not ideal having gaps or having only part-time work, at least work is recurrent, and consistent, and can show a history dating from 2016, which I think helps.

2) When should we apply? DH has a new contract starting Oct but he's been effectively contractless since June. Ideally, we'd like to be in England and have applied for my residency card before Brexit.

You appear to be eligible to apply at any time now, as can show that you have been living in Spain since 2016, and you both have valid Spanish resident cards. There is no requirement to show that either of you is currently working, only to prove that you have lived in Spain as a couple, while he has exercised his treaty rights (studying, working), for a reasonable amount of time in the past.

The one odd thing is that your husband's latest contract goes until June 2019 and I presume you intend to apply before March 2019. It might not be clear to the caseworker what you are trying to do (you coming to the UK without your husband?). It would be easier if this contract ended earlier, say, December 2018, and you could show he had lined up a UK contract for 2019.

1) Do I need to add/remove anything from the list of supporting documents? Boarding passes from our travels together? Letters from local friends and family?

I would advise focussing solely on the documents they suggest in the link provided above, and documents that prove your common residence. Boarding passes are definitely not required. All other documents you mention sound relevant.

How much is too much?

Difficult question, with a very subjective answer. My personal rule of thumb is, just try to provide only one document per fact you want to prove (no redundant documents). But this might vary, depending on how difficult is is to prove what you are trying to prove!

2) How do I organize the supporting documents (folders, binders, etc)? When do I submit them?

What I have done in my two RC applications was to bind related documents together with a paper clip (e.g. all bills, or all bank statements, or all letters of friends), then if not immediately obvious, add a post-it on the first document, explaining what the bundle is (e.g. "Joint bank statements 2016-2018"). It's organized, and clear, and not too bulky.

I believe you submit these when you attend your interview for a Family Permit. But I believe the process changes from country to country, so please take a look at the application website (you need to make an online application: https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/apply).

3) Once I'm in the UK, do I need to do the Surinder Singh application again to get a residency card?

Yes. Now you have to apply for a 6-month Family Permit. Once in the UK, and before those 6 months expire, you need to apply for a Residence Card.

4) Can (and should) I get an EHIC?

I believe you can, once you are a UK resident, but this is not necessary.

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Working for only 12 hours per week may be considered as marginal and not effective and without comprehensive health insurance covering the periods of low income and when you weren't working, you may not qualify for the Surinder Singh route.

Ah. Even if they both had Spanish residence cards?

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:33 pm

kamoe wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:29 pm

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Working for only 12 hours per week may be considered as marginal and not effective and without comprehensive health insurance covering the periods of low income and when you weren't working, you may not qualify for the Surinder Singh route.

Ah. Even if they both had Spanish residence cards?

Yes as the evidence of 'exercising Treaty rights' would fail.

Yes, I see. My bad, I overlooked that in my answer.

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:41 pm

kamoe wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:18 pm

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:33 pm

kamoe wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:29 pm

Ah. Even if they both had Spanish residence cards?

Yes as the evidence of 'exercising Treaty rights' would fail.

Yes, I see. My bad, I overlooked that in my answer.

Always easy to miss when the OP has a long post.

That's interesting! We had been worried about the low hours thing, but we've seen several cases where people worked low hours and were still eligible. We make enough money to pay all of our bills and support ourselves completely. The trouble with teaching English is it's always part-time. How many hours would you think would be sufficient?

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:10 pm

After March 2019, this route is likely to close.

We definitely would like to get in before Brexit officially happens. Here's what I'm worried about now: say our SS application is successful, we go to the UK in January, and I apply for my RC. It's generally a six-month waiting period, right? So Brexit would happen as my RC is processing... will that hurt my chances of getting it? Or will it be okay because I've applied before Brexit? I know they're saying there will be a transition period with pre-settled/settled status, but I'm not sure how a no-deal Brexit will affect this.

kamoe wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:51 pm

bunnycookiequeen wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:07 pm

1) Do you think the fact that there are gaps in DH's employment history will hurt our chances?

Not an expert, but from the available information on the Surinder Singh route here https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh one could interpret that what hurts the most is appearing to have moved to the other EEA state just to apply via the Surinder Singh route, i.e. too little time spent there, and too recently. In your case, whilst it is not ideal having gaps or having only part-time work, at least work is recurrent, and consistent, and can show a history dating from 2016, which I think helps.

2) When should we apply? DH has a new contract starting Oct but he's been effectively contractless since June. Ideally, we'd like to be in England and have applied for my residency card before Brexit.

You appear to be eligible to apply at any time now, as can show that you have been living in Spain since 2016, and you both have valid Spanish resident cards. There is no requirement to show that either of you is currently working, only to prove that you have lived in Spain as a couple, while he has exercised his treaty rights (studying, working), for a reasonable amount of time in the past.

The one odd thing is that your husband's latest contract goes until June 2019 and I presume you intend to apply before March 2019. It might not be clear to the caseworker what you are trying to do (you coming to the UK without your husband?). It would be easier if this contract ended earlier, say, December 2018, and you could show he had lined up a UK contract for 2019.

1) Do I need to add/remove anything from the list of supporting documents? Boarding passes from our travels together? Letters from local friends and family?

I would advise focussing solely on the documents they suggest in the link provided above, and documents that prove your common residence. Boarding passes are definitely not required. All other documents you mention sound relevant.

How much is too much?

Difficult question, with a very subjective answer. My personal rule of thumb is, just try to provide only one document per fact you want to prove (no redundant documents). But this might vary, depending on how difficult is is to prove what you are trying to prove!

2) How do I organize the supporting documents (folders, binders, etc)? When do I submit them?

What I have done in my two RC applications was to bind related documents together with a paper clip (e.g. all bills, or all bank statements, or all letters of friends), then if not immediately obvious, add a post-it on the first document, explaining what the bundle is (e.g. "Joint bank statements 2016-2018"). It's organized, and clear, and not too bulky.

I believe you submit these when you attend your interview for a Family Permit. But I believe the process changes from country to country, so please take a look at the application website (you need to make an online application: https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/apply).

3) Once I'm in the UK, do I need to do the Surinder Singh application again to get a residency card?

Yes. Now you have to apply for a 6-month Family Permit. Once in the UK, and before those 6 months expire, you need to apply for a Residence Card.

4) Can (and should) I get an EHIC?

I believe you can, once you are a UK resident, but this is not necessary.

Thank yo so much for the detailed response!

bunnycookiequeen wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:01 pm

How many hours would you think would be sufficient?

According to this guidance document describing Qualified Persons exercising treaty rights (page 13 of 62): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... s-v5.0.pdf it clarifies that each case is considered individually, but gives some examples of likely (and unlikely) qualifying profiles. Case 1 states a worker with a 20 hours a week contract as a likely genuine worker.

bunnycookiequeen wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:03 pm

say our SS application is successful, we go to the UK in January, and I apply for my RC. It's generally a six-month waiting period, right?

That's the legal maximum time the Home Office can keep you waiting for an answer, but if you check the more recent timeline thread you'll see most people are getting their RCs in about 2 months.

So Brexit would happen as my RC is processing... will that hurt my chances of getting it? Or will it be okay because I've applied before Brexit?

Note that Brexit is not a single date, is a combination of transition periods and provisions (although it is important to keep in mind the milestones dates when proposed regulations start to take effect). That being said, none of the proposed transition changes will invalidate retroactive applications, so whatever legislation is in place on the date of your application, that is what will be applied to your case.

I know they're saying there will be a transition period with pre-settled/settled status, but I'm not sure how a no-deal Brexit will affect this.

From a completely amateurish and non-expert point of view, given the amount of pressure from the 3 million EU citizens in the UK, if the UK Government has already officially communicated the generalities and dates of the Settled and Pre-Settled status, regardless the outcome of the negotiations, I don't think they will be rolling this back. I think the only reason they would cancel this is if Brexit doesn't happen, after all.

kamoe wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:30 pm

bunnycookiequeen wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:01 pm

How many hours would you think would be sufficient?

According to this guidance document describing Qualified Persons exercising treaty rights (page 13 of 62): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... s-v5.0.pdf it clarifies that each case is considered individually, but gives some examples of likely (and unlikely) qualifying profiles. Case 1 states a worker with a 20 hours a week contract as a likely genuine worker.

Ahh thanks so much! That's a great resource.

Casa wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:31 pm

It would be difficult to confirm the level of earnings required, but in the UK the weekly minimum is currently an average of £162 per week. Your own income won't be considered.

You mention your health insurance, but has your husband held comprehensive sickness insurance (CSI) during the periods when he hasn't worked? Freelance/self-employed workers in Spain are required to register as autónomo with the Ministerio de Hancienda for tax and also hold health insurance. Does your husband have documented evidence of this?

Regarding Brexit, it's not possible at this stage in the negotiations to say whether you have time to enter the UK through the Surinder Singh route, but I believe you'll be cutting it very fine. SS applications are likely to come under even greater scrutiny if the route is still open when you apply.

He isn't freelance/self-employed; he's always had a contract for the periods he worked. Does he need to have held CSI? He's registered at the local Spanish health clinic and has an EHIC (and NHS card, obviously). During the periods he hasn't worked, we've either been visiting his family in the UK or mine in the US (and he's had travel health insurance for when we've been in the US).

kamoe wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:47 pm

bunnycookiequeen wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:03 pm

say our SS application is successful, we go to the UK in January, and I apply for my RC. It's generally a six-month waiting period, right?

That's the legal maximum time the Home Office can keep you waiting for an answer, but if you check the more recent timeline thread you'll see most people are getting their RCs in about 2 months.

So Brexit would happen as my RC is processing... will that hurt my chances of getting it? Or will it be okay because I've applied before Brexit?

Note that Brexit is not a single date, is a combination of transition periods and provisions (although it is important to keep in mind the milestones dates when proposed regulations start to take effect). That being said, none of the proposed transition changes will invalidate retroactive applications, so whatever legislation is in place on the date of your application, that is what will be applied to your case.

I know they're saying there will be a transition period with pre-settled/settled status, but I'm not sure how a no-deal Brexit will affect this.

From a completely amateurish and non-expert point of view, given the amount of pressure from the 3 million EU citizens in the UK, if the UK Government has already officially communicated the generalities and dates of the Settled and Pre-Settled status, regardless the outcome of the negotiations, I don't think they will be rolling this back. I think the only reason they would cancel this is if Brexit doesn't happen, after all.

Thanks so much!! I know nothing's ever certain, but you've made me feel quite a bit less stressed

Casa wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:00 am

Ah! So while employed under contract, did the employer/s register him for tax and Social Security with the Tresorería General de la Seguridad Social, enabling him to support his SS application with proof of his periods of employment and level of earnings?

Yes exactly!! He has contracts, a social security number, a vida laboral, etc.

Casa wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:24 pm

In which case you're in a stronger position. Your challenge may be in proving that his level of earnings have been sufficient. How much was he earning per week during his last period of employment?

Yeah... that's the bit I'm worried about. He has payslips from his last job, but his boss paid him in cash and paid him much more than what was on his payslips because she didn't want to pay her taxes. On paper, he was being paid about 520 euros monthly, but we were putting about 800 euros worth of cash in the bank account. The new job he just got does direct deposit into our bank account and should be paying him around 250 euros/week.

However, I have seen precedent of people working very, very few hours and still getting Surinder Singh on the grounds that their work was genuine because it was not a job created for them specifically (i.e. a person working a total of 60 hours over a four month period, I believe). I know precedent doesn't seem to matter much in the case of SS but it does give me hope!

Casa wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:35 am

Just bear in mind that the cash deposits won't be considered, due to being without documented proof of source and from the 'black economy'. I doubt that his boss expected your husband to deposit the cash in his bank account.

Yeah, that makes sense. His boss definitely expected him to deposit it in the bank account, as that's where our rent money is taken out of, but Spain likes to turn a blind eye to things the UK, not so much!

Casa wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:58 am

Indeed! In 2017 it was estimated that Spain lost €25.648 billion a year due to the 'shadow/black economy'.

If you are submitting bank statements covering the period where €800 cash was regularly paid into your account, the Entry Clearance Officer (ECO) may well ask for evidence of the source. They are likely to question how you both survived on only €500 each month which when converted is only around £111 per week.

Yeah, that sounds about right! Spain's a very interesting place...

I also have a job and a contract. I get paid direct deposit into our bank account around 500-700 euros a month.I know my income doesn't go into consideration, but that's how we're able to survive. Our bills, rent, my health insurance, most of our groceries, etc. all come out of that bank account. We were given a few thousand dollars worth of money as wedding gifts which we also deposited into the bank account to help cover expenses.

We're so done with teaching English and desperate to just get to England as soon as possible. We want to use our degrees in 'real' jobs and start putting away savings and things like that. He's so frustrated and was talking today about maybe just applying for SS now and seeing what happens, but I'm not sure if that's the best idea. What do you think? It seems to me that it might be better if he worked at this new job for a few months before we apply; we both should be bringing in about 800-1000 euros a month each on contract, direct deposit.