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UKBA To Charge For EEA Applications

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:35 pm

yoshi_jp wrote:For those who are unaware of it:

The Immigration and Nationality (Cost Recovery Fees) Regulations 2013

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013 ... ule/3/made

7.6.1
Application made on or after 1st July 2013 for a document certifying permanent residence, a derivative residence card, a permanent residence card, a registration certificate, or a residence card under the 2006 Regulations.
£55

7.6.2
Application made on or after 1st July 2013 for a family member residence stamp within the meaning of paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to the 2006 Regulations.
£55
so, time to take to JR? or does somebody need notice of the charge?

fysicus
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Post by fysicus » Mon May 13, 2013 10:01 am

Some time ago already I have written to my MP about this, and he has forwarded it to the minister for immigration, Mark Harper MP. Sofar no response from mr Harper has been received.

The question was simple: to clarify what the similar documents are, as referred to in article 25 of EU Directive 2004/38, which would justify these charges.

As others mentioned before in this discussion, I do not see how passports or driving licences can qualify as such.

John
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Post by John » Mon May 13, 2013 10:35 am

fysicus, the reply from the Minister will be interesting.

UKBA has a very poor record of losing Court cases relating to policies it has adopted ... HSMP etc etc.. There is no doubt in my mind that in due course they will also lose a case relating to these new fees, and then will have to pay them all back.
John

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Post by a.s.b.o » Fri May 17, 2013 2:19 pm

John wrote:fysicus, the reply from the Minister will be interesting.

UKBA has a very poor record of losing Court cases relating to policies it has adopted ... HSMP etc etc.. There is no doubt in my mind that in due course they will also lose a case relating to these new fees, and then will have to pay them all back.
IS THERE A CASE ON THE MATTER OF FEES?

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Fri May 17, 2013 4:13 pm

not yet a.s.b.o.... they haven't came into force (yet)... it wll require somebody to claim the fees back and issue court proceedings (as john stated)...

however, i recommend writing your complaint to the EC:
http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/your_rights/ ... rms_en.htm

fysicus
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Post by fysicus » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:40 am

John wrote:the reply from the Minister will be interesting.
By now I consider the absence of an answer (despite a reminder I sent about two months after first asking the question) almost just as interesting.
It strengthens my belief that in the UK there are no similar documents, as referred to in article 25 of EU Directive 2004/38, and hence the charging for EEA applications is illegal under the Directive.

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:22 am

fysicus wrote:
John wrote:the reply from the Minister will be interesting.
By now I consider the absence of an answer (despite a reminder I sent about two months after first asking the question) almost just as interesting.
It strengthens my belief that in the UK there are no similar documents, as referred to in article 25 of EU Directive 2004/38, and hence the charging for EEA applications is illegal under the Directive.
definately is... :) but so are so many other things which are ruled by the eu, and ukba totally read another way...

fysicus
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Post by fysicus » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:59 am

I have now (via my own MP) received a reply from Mark Harper MP, the minister for immigration, who writes that advice from the European Commission had been obtained before proposing the £55 fee. It was already sent before my previous post but took a while to reach me.
As similar documents he mentions the UK passport (cost £72.50) and the British Nationality Status Letter (cost £88.00). He also mentions the UK drivers licence (cost £50), without explicitly claiming that as a similar document as well.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:21 pm

fysicus wrote:I have now (via my own MP) received a reply from Mark Harper MP, the minister for immigration, who writes that advice from the European Commission had been obtained before proposing the £55 fee. It was already sent before my previous post but took a while to reach me.
As similar documents he mentions the UK passport (cost £72.50) and the British Nationality Status Letter (cost £88.00). He also mentions the UK drivers licence (cost £50), without explicitly claiming that as a similar document as well.
Cute. The European Commission does not have the same view of the "advice". They pretty much told the UK that they should not charge more than a comparable domestic document.

fysicus
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Post by fysicus » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:57 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:... They pretty much told the UK that they should not charge more than a comparable domestic document.
The minister does not dispute this, but the fundamental question is what qualifies as a comparable domestic document (or similar document, the wording used in the directive).

The wording in the directive is, probably deliberately, quite vague and I guess only a court case will provide more clarity.

I can't see why a UK national would ever apply for a British Nationality Status Letter, when it is cheaper to get a passport.
So that leaves (from the list in the minister's letter) only the passport as a reference, and to me it seems that the UK government has a very weak position here.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:18 pm

A British national would get a birth certificate. That is the comparable document! With that you prove your right to work, and claim benefits...

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:17 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:A British national would get a birth certificate. That is the comparable document! With that you prove your right to work, and claim benefits...
so what is that... £12 fee? (TBF, that sounds like a more than fair arrangement... postage would probally eat most of that up)...

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:09 pm

Most people only get one certificate, when they are born. That costs £7 (or possibly £5)

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Post by John » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:36 am

A British national would get a birth certificate. That is the comparable document! With that you prove your right to work, and claim benefits...
Well not quite, in my opinion. If a person is born in the UK then that proves, err, they were born in the UK! It does not prove nationality at all. And neither does a UK Driving Licence. After all my own wife had a full UK driving licence before she had British Citizenship.

I do not understand why UKBA, or whatever it calls itself these days, continues to do this to itself. Over the years it has lost so many cases, and ends up costing itself a lot of money. This latest saga is just another example of a totally untenable position, which they will end up losing.
John

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:10 am

John wrote:
A British national would get a birth certificate. That is the comparable document! With that you prove your right to work, and claim benefits...
Well not quite, in my opinion. If a person is born in the UK then that proves, err, they were born in the UK! It does not prove nationality at all. And neither does a UK Driving Licence. After all my own wife had a full UK driving licence before she had British Citizenship.

I do not understand why UKBA, or whatever it calls itself these days, continues to do this to itself. Over the years it has lost so many cases, and ends up costing itself a lot of money. This latest saga is just another example of a totally untenable position, which they will end up losing.
I think it a birth certificate is a roughly comparable document that is issued to all citizens (and non citizens also). Remember that the goal of the Residence Card is not to prove citizenship.

For British citizens who want to work, one of the options for people who do not have a passport is to provide evidence of a NI number and a birth certificate. (link)

In any case, even if the comparable document was only a British passport or (???) driver's license, those each are valid for 10 years whereas a RC is only valid for 5. So I still think the UKBA numbers are wrong.

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Post by John » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:05 am

For British citizens who want to work, one of the options for people who do not have a passport is to provide evidence of a NI number and a birth certificate.
It is possible to have a full UK birth certificate and a NI number without being a British Citizen. Admittedly the guide you provide a link to would cover the employer, but that combination is not a 100% guarantee of British Citizenship.
Remember that the goal of the Residence Card is not to prove citizenship.
True, but it does prove that Treaty Rights are held. Very useful.
John

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Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:34 pm

But, a certificate can b sorted in no time at all.. hell, they check the evidence before sending out a COA... so why cant they just finish the "EASY CASES" there and then... "ok, this guy has sent bank statements, proof of employment, proof of living with hubby" ETC,,, lets issue the RC...

"this one is like the above, only proof of their address... lets request that evidence"

"ahh, this one has missed so much... lets just send it back to him, with a checklist of what wasnt included / what should be included!"

"ahh, this one looks dodgy... lets investigate"...

i recon at least 50% of applications fall within the first two categories... and should take no where near six months... (they hold out, so as "no, your spouse stopped working for a week in this month")

etc.... none of the apps should really take as long as they do... if people miss info off... request it, or send it as incomplete... if people dont send the right info, its their fault the application is returned to them...

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Post by yoshi_jp » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:30 pm

New forms are on the UKBA web site now:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... /applying/

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Post by Jambo » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:19 pm

Jambo wrote:
Obie wrote:Most interesting of all, there has been no ammendment to the EEA Regulation 2006.

So long as regulation 17(7) continue to be in place , such fee will be illegal by even national legislation standards, not to mention the wider illegality.
See SI 2013/1391.

And see there
13. Contact

13.1 Deborah Morrison, European Union Free Movement Policy Team, Home Office, Tel: 0207 035 0655 or email: deborah.morrison@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk can answer any queries regarding the instrument.
.

Hubba
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Post by Hubba » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:35 pm

yoshi_jp wrote:New forms are on the UKBA web site now:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... /applying/
The new form is a joke. Take for instance item 7.2:
7.2 If your EEA national family member did not exercise Treaty rights for some or all of this period
but were supported by the employment or funds of a family member, or if there are any other
periods of time not accounted for in the above table, please give details below. Continue on a
separate sheet if necessary and enclose it with this form
This is wrong. An EEA national IS exercising Treaty Rights even if supported by the employment of funds of a family member. The EEA national would be exercising Treaty Rights as self-sufficient, according to their own guidelines.

I hope they don't use the information provided on this field as proof that the EEA national was not exercising Treaty Rights, because this would come down pretty quickly in Court.

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Post by John » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:59 pm

The new form, valid from 01.07.13, is incorrect in another respect. On page 7 of 28 it lists EEA countries, but fails to include Croatia!

After all Croatia joins the EU and EEA on 01.07.13.
John

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:40 pm

Lmfao... these are an absolute bunch of jokers...

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Post by vinny » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:41 pm

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:30 pm

Interesting article.

Clearly, the argument centres around whether passports are similar documents. I suspect not, but it's just my opinion. It is interesting that the directive starts with the presumption of documentation being gratis, then goes onto qualify it in terms of "similar documents". In the directive, in general, the assumption is that residence documentation would be mandatory as might be the case in many EU countries. Hence, perhaps the derogation about fees being permitted.

In the UK, EU nationals would not be inconvenienced by this measure. They can easily demonstrate entitlement. The problem is for their family members.

I do note that the home office don't appear to offer a discount to children, the same £55 is charged. UK childrens' passports are currently £46.

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Post by Obie » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:52 am

The other problem is, extended family members have to apply for residency documents. Their right under the directive is dependent on them applying for this document. A British Citizen does not need to apply for a passport for his/her right to be confirmed, or for him or her to obtain these benefits as a citizen.

Therefore it is arguable, that at least in the case of an extended family and a British Citizens, the documents are not comparable.

Then of course the argument for children.

It is in any event a complete nonsense to compare a residence permit and a passport.
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