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mulderpf
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Post by mulderpf » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:21 am

MarcusB wrote:
mulderpf wrote: I have had a few employment agents tell me about companies who will not even look at you if you have ANY contracting work on your CV. They actually have screening questions where they ask "have you ever worked in a contracting role?". They will not even consider you.
I'm amazed by this. In my experience employers were happy if they could lure a former contractor into permanent work.
Note that it's not all, I said a few. There were many who were not too phased by it, but I've had one really nasty incident and a couple of interesting discussions with agents on this point. I'm simply pointing out that it can make your life much more difficult if you intend on shifting from the one to the other later.

harsha7kp
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Post by harsha7kp » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:38 pm

I have been working as a contractor for 5 years, and never ever have I faced/heard issues wherein the job agency has refused a CV because the person worked as a contractor. On the contrary, the companies are keen to get contractors to become perm employees. This is true atleast in financial\investment banking Industry.
Infact one of the companies that I worked for 2 years previously, pestered me to go perm so much that I had to finally look for another contract role elsewhere.

Also, generally I dont find any much difference between Contracting and perm in terms of skill sets improvement. The major difference for IT guys is that perm IT guys try to learn more about the busienss side of things and we Contracting IT guys try to learn and improve on our technical skill sets.

Also, who/what gets paid £1500/day for 2 years? An exotics trader??
I dont think anyone will be paid ridiculous amount like £1500/day unless the contract role is just for 1 or 2 months and that too for niche skillsets.
Yes, have seen technical architects and business analysts(and not managers) charge upto £1k/day which is honestly top end of the contracting market.
Had seen a couple of Tibco BE contractors charge £900/day.
But most of the contractors, even in the high paying Oil&gas or Inv banking industry, get paid anywhere between £400 to £700/day. I would say, £550 is actually the average rate if you consider both BAs, Quants and IT guys in this industry.

I guess there are a lot of guys in this forum from India(especially techies) who would agree that going contracting is way much better than perm, especially if you dont plan to settle in this country and dont have a career progression plan here.
For Indian techies, the best deal would be to do contracting, have a limited company(and know all the tax saving techniques), save and invest back in India(probably in commercial properties), and return back to India in 8-10 years by which time you would have accumulated so much income generating property that your contracting rates will be more or less equivalent to the earnings from your property back in India.

Have seen quite a few smart chaps do that already...

kenfrapin
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Post by kenfrapin » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:08 pm

harsha7kp wrote:I have been working as a contractor for 5 years, and never ever have I faced/heard issues wherein the job agency has refused a CV because the person worked as a contractor. On the contrary, the companies are keen to get contractors to become perm employees. This is true atleast in financial\investment banking Industry.
This is after you contract with that company, they pester you to go perm - different from what we have been discussing where you apply for a perm role with a company after contracting for a few years
harsha7kp wrote: Infact one of the companies that I worked for 2 years previously, pestered me to go perm so much that I had to finally look for another contract role elsewhere.
And you proved my previous point. My friends are being pestered everyday because they like their work and want to get away by paying a lower monthly salary.
harsha7kp wrote: Also, generally I dont find any much difference between Contracting and perm in terms of skill sets improvement. The major difference for IT guys is that perm IT guys try to learn more about the busienss side of things and we Contracting IT guys try to learn and improve on our technical skill sets.
Yup, I agree completely with what you have said. Also, perms have a lot of opportunities to scale up and move into management so career wise, being perm has a lot more going for you.
harsha7kp wrote: Also, who/what gets paid £1500/day for 2 years? An exotics trader??
I dont think anyone will be paid ridiculous amount like £1500/day unless the contract role is just for 1 or 2 months and that too for niche skillsets.
Yes, have seen technical architects and business analysts(and not managers) charge upto £1k/day which is honestly top end of the contracting market.
Had seen a couple of Tibco BE contractors charge £900/day.
But most of the contractors, even in the high paying Oil&gas or Inv banking industry, get paid anywhere between £400 to £700/day. I would say, £550 is actually the average rate if you consider both BAs, Quants and IT guys in this industry.
While I agree the average is £500/day thats only true in London and bigger cities. I believe the average is much lower around £300/day. I know of people in the industry and from here where the rates are as low as £180/day. On the higher side trust me, I dont have a lot of experience but have gone into interviews paying £700/day but never had the guts to go for it (wish I had). I know of people who earn close to £1k/day and crazy as it may sound, it is very true.
harsha7kp wrote: save and invest back in India(probably in commercial properties), and return back to India in 8-10 years
I would definitely not advice anyone of such a move. The world today is changing so fast you are not sure what will life be in any county in 10years time.
Also, I dont believe in spending 10 years in a country just to save up and then go back. Life is precious and 10 years is a long time to not settle down and build roots in your community. I would not want to lose 8 or 10years just working to build my nest egg and then go back to India and start from scratch again. Also,you not only lose 10years but you also lose the friends you have made, your family(which most of us will have in those 10years) lose the bonds they have built where they have lived and even India will feel alien when you go back and settle down after 10years. If you have a family its very unfair to your child/ren, if born here and schooling are more British than Indian and taking them back when they are above 5 years is something I wont advice.

Many people think its all about money and saving now to then returning home and settling down for good. I have seen this happen as a widespread practice in the early 90s with people working in the Middle East - must say, its never proven successful because 10 years is just too long a time frame not to live your life and enjoy your younger years.

You end up saving and saving and telling yourself you will go back and when you finally do, you will be in your mid-40s with a nice big belly, hardly any friends left, the place being a lot different from what you remember 10 years back, habits more English than Indian and quietly regretting you did not make more of the time you lost thinking of the future and silently, every day, wish you had spent a little more time enjoying your younger days with the money you earned :-)

KP

harsha7kp
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Post by harsha7kp » Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:05 pm

I would definitely not advice anyone of such a move. The world today is changing so fast you are not sure what will life be in any county in 10years time.
Also, I dont believe in spending 10 years in a country just to save up and then go back. Life is precious and 10 years is a long time to not settle down and build roots in your community. I would not want to lose 8 or 10years just working to build my nest egg and then go back to India and start from scratch again. Also,you not only lose 10years but you also lose the friends you have made, your family(which most of us will have in those 10years) lose the bonds they have built where they have lived and even India will feel alien when you go back and settle down after 10years. If you have a family its very unfair to your child/ren, if born here and schooling are more British than Indian and taking them back when they are above 5 years is something I wont advice.

Many people think its all about money and saving now to then returning home and settling down for good. I have seen this happen as a widespread practice in the early 90s with people working in the Middle East - must say, its never proven successful because 10 years is just too long a time frame not to live your life and enjoy your younger years.

You end up saving and saving and telling yourself you will go back and when you finally do, you will be in your mid-40s with a nice big belly, hardly any friends left, the place being a lot different from what you remember 10 years back, habits more English than Indian and quietly regretting you did not make more of the time you lost thinking of the future and silently, every day, wish you had spent a little more time enjoying your younger days with the money you earned
Dude, Investment strategies are left to an individuals choice and only time can tell if the decision was right or wrong. Yes times do change fast, and thats the very reason why NRIs should invest in india before its too late:p
I'm not saying you don't enjoy your life here, you just need to plan it out very well. Don't compare 1990s to this present day. In early 1990s, india was bankrupt and had to pledge it's gold to Bank Of England to raise money, and today the tables have turned. Times do change fast eh?;)
These days a lot of people make it a habit to visit India atleast one or twice. And their relatives and friends visit them here in UK atleast once a year. These are not 1980s where Indians only used to hardly see their relatives and friends back home. Besides you get to enjoy your prime years in a beautiful country like UK, enjoy all the fun that this country has to offer and at the same time earn in pounds and invest in rupees. If you are 25 and start earning £500/day for the next 10 years and keep investing In India, then by the time you are 35 your investments in India itself would be giving you returns equivalent to your contract rates. Because your contract rates hardly changes here YoY isnt it. But in India, you have a capital appreciation + high rental yield+opportunities to save on tax(could include black money as well).
Even in the most conservative estimate, your high risk investment here may fail to match the returns on the most stable investments.
Thats the whole point. I will be surprised if anyone earning a good living here in UK does not have investments at all in India.
Indians having pot belly - Stereotypes of 1990s again?
I think the confusion of being British or Indian, to follow this culture or the native culture will be more inherent in the people who would settle here rather than people who go back.

You really had an offer of £700/day and you did'nt take it, eh? Hmm...

I guess there are other benefits to being a contractor - you can save a lot on tax.

kenfrapin
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Post by kenfrapin » Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:16 pm

I hate to admit it but what you have said is all but true.........visiting and being in touch with family is so much more easier today and yes, I dont think even 10 years down the line will make a difference :-)

I was just contradicting what you had mentioned on not planning for career progression, making money and then going back but your further post shows you do have a plan

And trust me, not a day goes by where I dont think why I should not step into contracting....I work in a specialized field so getting contracts over £500/day is easy....I think I need to build the confidence and guts to do that....lol...

All the best....BTW, I too believe in investing in Asia.....over the long term it is emerging countries that will pay best dividends...but a portfolio of only property Im not too sure about that....spreading your bets across China, India, South Americas and South East Asia sounds better....but hell, this is from a guy who still hasnt gone contracting so I do need to first sort that out and take a step towards financial bliss....

One thing I definitely disagree with you....most Indians, once married or over 30, whichever comes first, develop a lovely full rounded belly.....there are very few of us who have finally got in control and maintain a healthy physique.....it may just be you and me but still, almost all are out of shape and the lovely food couple with being a potato couch will never help their case!!!

KP

gainvidya
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Post by gainvidya » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:11 am

kenfrapin wrote:
Also, I dont believe in spending 10 years in a country just to save up and then go back. Life is precious and 10 years is a long time to not settle down and build roots in your community. I would not want to lose 8 or 10years just working to build my nest egg and then go back to India and start from scratch again. Also,you not only lose 10years but you also lose the friends you have made, your family(which most of us will have in those 10years) lose the bonds they have built where they have lived and even India will feel alien when you go back and settle down after 10years.
Spending 10 years with this intention of saving and going back sounds strange but people always did that when there was a need. My Dad left his native place in his early 20's towards commercial city of Mumbai and settled down there. Migration in last 10 years is more towards want based than need based. But thats how humans are.
"The belly of the son of Adam will be filled only with dust(of the grave)" -Prophet Muhammed
kenfrapin wrote:
If you have a family its very unfair to your child/ren, if born here and schooling are more British than Indian and taking them back when they are above 5 years is something I wont advice.
This really issue really haunts me. As I see my kid (just turned 6) growing I feel I better escape NOW. In fact I am visiting India next month to start searching more about the schooling etc. so my next step is to start hunting for a job there in few months time.

kenfrapin wrote: spreading your bets across China, India, South Americas and South East Asia sounds better.
I advice not to do that. I have seen people burning their fingers doing that. Invest in the place where you have people and knowledge to back you up.
kenfrapin wrote: most Indians, once married or over 30, whichever comes first, develop a lovely full rounded belly..
That was true 10 to 15 years ago the stats are changing. Percentage of people taking care of thier health and shape are increasing.

namastelondon
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Post by namastelondon » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:21 pm

harsha7kp wrote:

Dude, Investment strategies are left to an individuals choice and only time can tell if the decision was right or wrong. Yes times do change fast, and thats the very reason why NRIs should invest in india before its too late:p
I'm not saying you don't enjoy your life here, you just need to plan it out very well.
Yes it really depend from person to person but definitely the returns are more in a growing market. I feel if I do not invest now in India, I will never be able to do in future.

I will definitely prefer securing my future back home than securing it in UK.

gainvidya
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Post by gainvidya » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:57 pm

namastelondon wrote:
harsha7kp wrote:
I will definitely prefer securing my future back home than securing it in UK.
I concur to this. Although I had option(in 2007) to buy a property in the UK or buy 1 in India first I choose the latter. And I am so lucky to make the right decision. I bought my flat in India for £40K which could have been a deposit against a 2 bed house in London of £250K. Those flats in India are worth £120 (3 times) and still a 2 bed house in the same street is yet £250K.

kenfrapin
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Post by kenfrapin » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:27 pm

gainvidya wrote:Although I had option(in 2007) to buy a property in the UK or buy 1 in India first I choose the latter. And I am so lucky to make the right decision. I bought my flat in India for £40K which could have been a deposit against a 2 bed house in London of £250K. Those flats in India are worth £120 (3 times) and still a 2 bed house in the same street is yet £250K.
You did the right thing really because 2007/08 was the peak of the housing boom here.....did you know that house prices tripled in the UK too before this time? As the problem with every developed country in the west, such booms dont last too long whereas in developing nations, property will always be a good investment bet

Coming back to the discussion of planning a return back home after 10 years or so, I do agree its a very personal choice. India is improving tremendously so going back after a few fun years in the West is a very good plan. If you have your entire network there its always nice to go back home.
I know, from personal experience, finally shutting shop and returning is a very difficult thing to do - but thats human nature and will always be a tough day when you leave a country that was home for so many years.

KP

namastelondon
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Post by namastelondon » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:09 am

kenfrapin wrote: I know, from personal experience, finally shutting shop and returning is a very difficult thing to do - but thats human nature and will always be a tough day when you leave a country that was home for so many years.

KP
Anyway we did that when we came to UK. I know for sure many people who live here and every now and then they say " they don't like living here" but still lived there entire life. Some people don't go back because they do not have anything back home.

mrajkumar
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Post by mrajkumar » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:04 pm

well said namastelondon, even some of my frds in UK for more than 6 yrs says they dont like living here and they normally dont encourage people coming to Uk but still lives here even after they got some good oppurtunities to go back to India...I dont understand their stands..
namastelondon wrote:
kenfrapin wrote: I know, from personal experience, finally shutting shop and returning is a very difficult thing to do - but thats human nature and will always be a tough day when you leave a country that was home for so many years.

KP
Anyway we did that when we came to UK. I know for sure many people who live here and every now and then they say " they don't like living here" but still lived there entire life. Some people don't go back because they do not have anything back home.

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