EU4Fam and EU-wide travel - an experiment (old)

Hi all,

equipped with an EU4Fam card, it should be possible to travel EU-wide, even where the non-EU family member is visa required. (This has been widely discussed)

I want to see if embassies know about this, and sent an email to all EU-embassies in Dublin. I included a scan of both passports, the EU4Fam Card and our marriage certificate.

I will post replies here...

### ### ### ### ###
Dear Madam or Sir,

my wife (Lebanese Citizen) and myself (German) envisage visiting [your country] for a weekend-trip.

My wife is in posession of an Irish EU4-Fam-card, as per attached documents.

Will we have to apply for a visa? If yes, could you please outline the procedure?

Thanks and regards, Christian (...)
### ### ### ### ###

This email went to:

Bulgaria - bgemb@eircom.net
Czech Republic - dublin@embassy.mzv.cz
Denmark - dubamb@um.dk
Estonia - embassy.dublin@mfa.ee
Finnland - sanomat.dub@formin.fi
France - chancellerie@ambafrance.ie
Germany - germany@indigo.ie
Greece - dubgremb@eircom.net (mailbox full, resent to cio@mfa.gr)
Hungary - hungarian.embassy@eircom.net
Italy - ambasciata.dublino@esteri.it
Latvia - embassy.ireland@mfa.gov.lv
Lithuania - amb.ie@urm.lt
Luxemburg - emb@luxembourg.co.uk
the Netherlands - dub-info@minbuza.nl
Poland - info@dublin.polemb.net
Portugal - correio@dgaccp.pt
Romania - ambrom@eircom.net
Slovenia - vdb@gov.si
Slowakia - slovak@iol.ie
Spain - embaspan@eircom.net
Sweden - ambassaden.dublin@foreign.ministry.se
UK - consular.dubli@fco.gov.uk

4 countries (Austria, Belgium, Cyprus and Malta) already confirmed this is correct (=a visa is NOT needed), so I didn't ask again.

I also sent this email to the Norwegian embassy (emb.dublin@mfa.no), but I have no clue at all what their answer should be. (They are Schengen, but as they're not in the EU they are not bound by 2004/38/EC.)

Edit as the first answers come in:

depending on the answer, I will send a modular email back:

### ### ### general ### ### ###

Dear xyz,

Thanks for your fast reply. I do have some questions around the visa-procedure:

### ### ### visa necessary at all ?? ### ### ###

I found the following information on the website of the European Commission:

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/c ... ex_en.html

### ### ### ### ###
YOU MIGHT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN ENTRY VISA
(...)
Possession of the valid residence card, referred to in the relevant fact sheet, issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.
### ### ### ### ###

As my wife in in possession of an EU4Fam-card, which is the Irish version of the "Residence Card for EU family members" as referred to above, I was hoping that we do not need a separate Visa?

### ### ### additional documentation ?? ### ### ###

If we still do need a visa, I hope it can be granted providing our passports and our marriage-certificate (only), as per the following?

### ### ### ### ###
As your right of entry is derived from your family ties with a Union citizen, all the Member State consular officials can ask you to produce for the visa application is your passport and a document establishing the family ties with a Union citizen, such as marriage or birth certificate and proof of dependence, where applicable.
### ### ### ### ###

### ### ### free of charge ?? ### ### ###

Furthermore, as my wife is the family-member of an EU-citizen (me), the visa should be issued free of charge?

### ### ### ### ###
The Member State of destination should grant you every facility to obtain the necessary visa, which shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure. In any event, even in the most difficult cases, the visa should be issued no later than a couple of weeks following the date of application.
### ### ### ### ###

Could you fill me in about the necessary procedure, considering the above?

Thanks and regards,

ca.funke wrote:I also sent this email to the Norwegian embassy (emb.dublin@mfa.no), but I have no clue at all what their answer should be. (They are Schengen, but as they're not in the EU they are not bounud by 2004/38/EC.)

I sent a similar request to ots@udi.no in June. They told me that they would foward it to their EU/EEA unit but never got a response.

The comission report (point 3.4, "Other Issues") from earlier this year mentioned that negotiations with the EFTA members are ongoing.

the Netherlands (correct answer) :

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: DUB-INFO <DUB-INFO@minbuza.nl>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian


Dear Mr,

If you are travelling together, the EU farm card should be sufficient.

Kind regards

(...)
Ambassade van het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
160 Merrion Road
Dublin 4

la France (incorrect answer) : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Philippe (...) <Philippe.(...)@diplomatie.gouv.fr>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Subject: visa
To: ca.funke

Good morning

Your wife need a visa to go to France. We need 3 weeks for the process of the application.

You’ll find hereafter the list of requirements :

• Passeport + 2 photos
• Reentry visa to Ireland ( 3 months validity after the return date in Ireland)
• Residency card (3 months validity after the return date in Ireland)
• Bank statement for the last 2 months ( with full name and address)
• Travel insurance / VHI, BUPA etc ….( with period of cover, zone of cover, policy number and surname)
• Recent letter from the employer ( with position held in the company)
• Last two pay slips
• Flight tickets

If you are married , we need the certificate of marriage and the spouse’s passport

If you have children, we need the certificate of birth and a letter from the school

We are open between 2.00pm to 4 .00pm from Monday to Thursday and from 2 .00pm to 3.00pm on Friday.

If you have any complementary queries, do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards
The Visa officer


la France is quick with the second reply, but incorrectly insists.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Philippe <Philippe(...)@diplomatie.gouv.fr>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: visa
To: Christian

Good morning

I gave you the list of the documents to provide. We need all the documents.

Regards

Visa officer

Romania (incorrect answer) : (asking for Visa, supplementary documents and a fee)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sectia consulara Dublin <ro_consulate@eircom.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Subject: FW: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

Yes, she needs visa.

1 application form to be downloaded from www.mae.ro
Passport to be valid at least 6 months
Green card to be valid at least 6 months
2 color photos
Flight booking
Accomodation booking
Bank statement not older than 3 days
35 Euros

It takes 4-5 working days

Regards


Second answer ??? (I won't pursue this further)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sectia consulara Dublin <ro_consulate@eircom.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian


Sorry for the information, your inquiry is the first of this kind.

You’ll find the information you need here http://www.politiadefrontiera.ro

Sweden (correct answer) :

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xxx.yyy@foreign.ministry.se>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

In principle, your wife should not need to apply for a visa since she has an Irish EU4-Fam-Card and you travel to Sweden together. She of course also needs to bring her passport.

REgards, (...)

ca.funke wrote:Sweden (correct answer) :

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xxx.yyy@foreign.ministry.se>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

In principle, your wife should not need to apply for a visa since she has an Irish EU4-Fam-Card and you travel to Sweden together. She of course also needs to bring her passport.

REgards, (...)

I wonder if the words "in principle" are significant here?

And of course, it's only half the story. The advice, although correct, is worse than useless if the person is turned away at the border anyway. In other words, does the practice match the principle? (It might well in the case of Sweden...)

Czech Republic (incorrect answer) : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Subject: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

Dear Mr./Mrs.
To your query we would like to inform you that your wife as a spouse of
German nationality has to apply for a visa (free of charge) .

You can find all information about visas on our website: www.mzv.cz/dublin

Your wifw has to submit tourist visa application and supporting documents
as well in person during official hours (Tue&Thu: 9.30-12.00, 13.30-16.00),
no appointment is necessary. It takes 10-15 working days to get a visa
clearance of the Czech Immigration Police.

Kind regards
(...)
Consular Officer

Slovenia (correct answer)

They rang me, which is some service.

• They gave the situation exactly as it is, saying that
• we do not need a visa but as
• this is unfortunately not known to all immigration officials
• we can (but do not have to) apply for a visa by
• providing both passports and the marriage-certificate (only), and
• the visa will then be issued, free of charge, after 2 days,
• just to avoid any possible complications on arrival.
• Enjoy your stay in Slovenia.

That's the best and most precise answer so far

Slovakia (incorrect answer) : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Consular Section of the Slovak Embassy <dublinconsulate@eircom.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Subject: visa
To: ca.funke


Please find attached visa application and requirements.

(application for schengen visa ENG.pdf)
(Visa requirements.doc)

Consular Section
Embassy of the Slovak Republic
20 Clyde Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Office hours: Tuesday & Thursday
9,30-12,00 hrs
Tel: 01-6600008
Fax:01-6600014

ca.funke wrote:Czech Republic (incorrect answer) : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Subject: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

Dear Mr./Mrs.
To your query we would like to inform you that your wife as a spouse of
German nationality has to apply for a visa (free of charge) .

You can find all information about visas on our website: www.mzv.cz/dublin

Your wifw has to submit tourist visa application and supporting documents
as well in person during official hours (Tue&Thu: 9.30-12.00, 13.30-16.00),
no appointment is necessary. It takes 10-15 working days to get a visa
clearance of the Czech Immigration Police.

Kind regards
(...)
Consular Officer

CA.FUNKE, this is the response i got from the czech embassy in switzerland with regard to the same question as you asked. It's in german, but i provided a translation for the part that is applicable to spouses of swiss/ eu/ eea citizens at the bottom where is it is written "Ehegatte Schweizer oder EU/EWR- Bürger"

From: Czech Consulate BERN (Consulate_Bern@embassy.mzv.cz)
Sent: 28 January 2008 13:19:26
To:

Botschaft der Tschechischen Republik in Bern, Muristrasse 53, 3006 Bern, Tel.: Nr. 031 350 40 70, Fax: 031 350 40 97, E-mail: bern@embassy.mzv.cz, www.mzv.cz/bern





MERKBLATT FÜR VISAANTRÄGE





Die persönliche Vorsprache jedes Visaantragstellers zu den Parteienverkehrszeiten (Mo-Fr, 10:00 – 12:00 Uhr) ist obligatorisch. Ausnahmen werden nur für Ehegatt(inn)en und minderjährige Kinder, akzeptiert.



Ein Visum kann nur erteilt werden, wenn Tschechien Ihr Hauptreiseziel oder (beim Transit) Ersteinreiseland ist!



Personen, die nicht EU-Bürger/EWR-Angehörige sind, aber mit gültigem Schweizer Ausländerausweis B oder C in der Schweiz leben, brauchen seit dem 10. Juli 2006 kein Visum für die Durchreise (Transit – 5 Tage) durch Tschechien.




Bitte legen Sie bei der Antragstellung folgende ORIGINALDOKUMENTE vor:



1. ein vollständig ausgefülltes Antragsformular (www.mzw.cz/bern)

2. gültigen Reisepass mit freier Visaseite (3 Monate länger gültig als das beantragte Visum)

3. Ausländerausweis B, C oder L (für Transit-Visa 3 Tage länger gültig, für Besuchs-Visa 3 Monate länger gültig als das beantragte Visum) Original plus Fotokopie

4. Ein Passfoto neusten Datums

5. ein an Sie adressiertes Kuvert, frankiert mit CHF 5.- (falls Abholung nicht möglich ist)

6. Nachweis Ihrer finanziellen Mittel (nicht länger als zwei Monate): z.B. aktuelle Arbeitgeber-bescheinigung mit Originalunterschrift und letzter Lohnbestätigung; Handelsregisterauszug und letzter Steuerbescheid; AHV- oder IV-Rentnerausweis; Arbeitslosenbestätigung, Schulbesuchs-bestätigung, Kreditkarte.

7. Nachweis des Kranken- und Unfallversicherungsschutzes in den Schengenstaaten - Krankenversicherung mit einer mindestdeckung von 30 000,- EUR, einschliesslich der Notfallbehandlung und des Rücktransports ins Heimatland oder in die Schweiz

für Besuchsreisen zusätzlich:

Verwandten-/Bekanntenbesuche: Einladungsschreiben, tschechische Aufenthaltsbewilligung (bei Nichttschechen) des/der Einladenden oder beglaubigte Verpflichtungserklärung des/der Einladenden (Vordrücke erhältlich bei der Fremdenpolizei in Tschechien) mit Fotokopien von Reisepass, Meldezettel und tschech. Aufenthaltsbewilligung (bei Nichttschechen) des Einladenden sowie eines Arbeits-, Einkommens- oder Vermögensnachweises des Einladenden.

Touristische Aufenthalte: Bahnfahrkarte, Flugticket oder Busticket für die Hin- und Rückreise, Hotelreservierung samt Zahlungsbestätigung

· für Geschäftsreisen zusätzlich:

Arbeitsbestätigung und Einladungsschreiben des tschechischen Geschäftspartners (jeweils mit

Kopie des Firmenbuchauszuges)



Ehegatte Schweizer oder EU/EWR- Bürger:

Die Ehegatten – Staatsangehörige der Drittstaaten – von Schweizer oder EU/EWR Bürgern mit einem ständigen Wohnsitz in der Schweiz brauchen kein Schengenvisum für einen Aufenthalt in der Tschechischen Republik. Sie müssen folgende Dokumente für die Reise mitnehmen:

1. Heiratsurkunde bzw. Familienbuch, Original plus Fotokopie

2. gültigen Reisepass

3. schweizer Aufenthaltsgenehmigung (B, C)

4. Kopie des Reisepasses des Ehegatten

Translation:

The spouses - citizens of the third countries - of Swiss or EU/EEA citizens with a constant domicile in Switzerland do not need Schengen visa for a stay in the Czech republic. They must carry the following documents forward for the journey:
1. Family book / marriage certificate, original plus photocopy
2. valid passport
3. Swiss residence permit (B, C)
4. Copy of the passport of the spouse

Just to add on, the swiss residence permit B or C mentioned issued to spouses of swiss citizens are permits issued under swiss national law and not even under the eu law. EFTA/EU B or C permits are issued to family members of EU/EEA citizens exercising treaty rights in switzerland. Spouses of EU/EEA citizens which move to switzerland from outside of the EU/EEA to join their spouses are issued with swiss B permits issued under swiss national law as would be the case for spouses of swiss citizens.
Just goes to show how things are a complete mess concerning this, different answers from the same country's embassy in different countries. Have to add, i have friends married to swiss citizens which have had no problems boarding flights or entering the czech republic as advised by the czech embassy above.
Moreover the czech embassy absolutely refuse to issue a schengen visa for family members of swiss/EU/EEA citizens with swiss residence permits, whether it be issued under swiss national law or EU law, as it is not necessary.



Die Bearbeitung des Visaantrages dauert mindestens 14 Arbeitstage, in bestimmten Fällen kann es bis zu 30 Tage dauern; dazu kommt der Postweg. Die Vorlage zusätzlicher in diesem Merkblatt nicht angeführter Unterlagen kann verlangt werden! Die Gebühren sind bei Antragsstellung in CHF zu entrichten. Sie betragen je nach Visum EURO 35.00 bis EURO 70.00.



Ausländischen Staatsangehörigen ohne Schweizer Visum oder ohne Aufenthaltsgenehmigung in der Schweiz kann kein Visum erteilt werden. Visa sind bei einer tschech. Vertretungsbehörde im Staat des Wohnsitzes zu beantragen

flyboy wrote:czech embassy in switzerland

Hi Flyboy,

thanks for that. It's good to know that they seem to handle it without too many complications in Bern.

Luckily, the above will be irrelevant for you soon. As Switzerland will join Schengen (in October I think ) all these problems will evaporate overnight...

Regards from (not-Schengen and not-to-be Schengen-soon) Dublin

Christian

Poland (correct answer) :

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Konsulat RP w Dublinie <visa@dublin.polemb.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke


Dear Mr,

In response to your enquiry I would like to inform you that your wife does not need a visa to Poland if you are travelling together.
Please ensure you will have your marriage certificate and the GNIB Card with 4EUFam stamp with you.

I would also advise you to print out an appropriate extract of our webpage http://www.dublin.polemb.net/index.php?document=38 so that you can present it to border officers.

Kind regards,
(Signed)

Wydzial Konsularny Ambasady RP w Dublinie
Consular Section of the Embassy of Poland in Dublin

4-8 Eden Quay
Dublin 1
IRLANDIA

www.dublin.polemb.net
consul@dublin.polemb.net
paszporty@dublin.polemb.net
visa@dublin.polemb.net

tel. +353 - 1 - 871 8020
fax +353 - 1 - 872 7792

(the link provided gives nearly fully correct information, with the exception that this should also apply to Polish citizens.)

ca.funke wrote:

flyboy wrote:czech embassy in switzerland

Hi Flyboy,

thanks for that. It's good to know that they seem to handle it without too many complications in Bern.

Luckily, the above will be irrelevant for you soon. As Switzerland will join Schengen (in October I think ) all these problems will evaporate overnight...

Regards from (not-Schengen and not-to-be Schengen-soon) Dublin

Christian

Oh No. Switzerland joining Schengen too?! The only country in Western Europe with a sensible system is ruined too! (referring to them being the only country that do not require a visa at all from permanent residents of other EU countries - regardless of nationality / marital status. i.e. if you have a stamp 4 you can just get on the plane and go to switzerland!)...

Back to topic: great work Christian! It's really a great reference you are providing, and I suggest a moderator make this a sticky!

ashimashi wrote:Oh No. Switzerland joining Schengen too?! The only country in Western Europe with a sensible system is ruined too! (referring to them being the only country that do not require a visa at all from permanent residents of other EU countries - regardless of nationality / marital status. i.e. if you have a stamp 4 you can just get on the plane and go to switzerland!)...

I doubt that Switzerland will have their system ruined through the Brussels dictatorship.

My guess is that they will keep their well organised approach and simply issue "national visas" to those who do not match the Schengen-criteria. This would allow you to stay in Switzerland, but not to cross the (then unmanned) borders.

The onus is then on the citizen not to break the law by crossing into the EU.

The border is "open" already, as crossing in some fields in the middle of nowhere goes unnoticed, so effectively there is no difference.

For their own benefit I hope they will not join this messy "EU" (=experience unavailable) formation.

ashimashi wrote:Back to topic: great work Christian! It's really a great reference you are providing, and I suggest a moderator make this a sticky!

thanks for the praise Just trying to travel with my wife as we please

While we're at it - please check out my petition to the parliament, in which I plan to include all (official) answers received in this thread.

please continue this discussion here.

I want to keep the official answers in order, so the new thread should be clearer...