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Dutch - EEA Family permit member Refused

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giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Fri May 30, 2008 2:59 pm

Just a quick update....

If you check on the IATA database, for the Netherlands a visa is not required if holding a EEA Family member permit.

Austria, France and Italy are reported to ask for a Schengen visa.

At least for Italy this is recently changed and is not required anymore...

g.
86ti wrote:
giruzz wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:The border police are going to be well informed. If they have any problems, they can just call the British to confirm it is a valid Residence Card.
Well...The Dutch in London keep saying that is not valid and she needs a Schengen Visa....so I wouldn't be that sure that things will be smooth...

(Then there is the problem that they are not issuing Schengen visas unless the Residency Card is issued on the passport).

giruz
I think the embassy can anyway only give you advice and is in no position to force you to obtain a visa. As I said before the real challenge is check-in and border control. I hope that Directive/2004/38/EC is right and border police is better informed.

I, by the way, have a similar problem with the Austrian embassy. But in this case they don't seem to accept UK residence cards at all.

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri May 30, 2008 3:02 pm

giruzz wrote:Just a quick update....

If you check on the IATA database, for the Netherlands a visa is not required if holding a EEA Family member permit.

Austria, France and Italy are reported to ask for a Schengen visa.

At least for Italy this is recently changed and is not required anymore...

g.
86ti wrote:
giruzz wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:The border police are going to be well informed. If they have any problems, they can just call the British to confirm it is a valid Residence Card.
Well...The Dutch in London keep saying that is not valid and she needs a Schengen Visa....so I wouldn't be that sure that things will be smooth...

(Then there is the problem that they are not issuing Schengen visas unless the Residency Card is issued on the passport).

giruz
I think the embassy can anyway only give you advice and is in no position to force you to obtain a visa. As I said before the real challenge is check-in and border control. I hope that Directive/2004/38/EC is right and border police is better informed.

I, by the way, have a similar problem with the Austrian embassy. But in this case they don't seem to accept UK residence cards at all.
Yes, but as I pointed out in the other thread the IATA database is in conflict with information that I received from the Estonian and Latvian embassies.

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:21 pm

Fyi,

The dutch embassy just changed their rules. For EEA Family Permit holders a schengen visa is not requested anymore to enter to the Netherlands.

giruzz

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:16 am

giruzz wrote:The dutch embassy just changed their rules. For EEA Family Permit holders a schengen visa is not requested anymore to enter to the Netherlands.
Strange. Do you have a reference for this information? What about for Residence Card holders?

dsab85
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Posts: 224
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Post by dsab85 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:45 am

I made the same request a few weeks ago, and got the folloiwng response from the dutch embassy:

***********************
LON-VZ <lon-vz@minbuza.nl>
to XXX
date Wed, May xx, 2008 at x:xx PM
subject RE: Visa Requirement for NON-EEA citizen legally residing in the UK (married to an EU citizen)
mailed-by minbuza.nl

Dear Sir,
if your wife holds a residence permit that mentions "residence card of a family member of an EEA national" she can travel to The Netherlands without a visa on condition that you are both travelling together and that she takes her passport and proof of your relationship (marriage certificate).

Yours sincerely
Visa section
***********************

Cheers,
dsab

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:53 am

Look at the Dutch's embassy web page.

EDIT:
The "best" part at the bottom:

*Please note that EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC.

Aha, e.g. a German married to a non EEA national is neither a Union citizen nor can they cross the border to The Netherlands without first obtaining a visa?

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:03 pm

86ti wrote:Look at the Dutch's embassy web page.

EDIT:
The "best" part at the bottom:

*Please note that EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC.

Aha, e.g. a German married to a non EEA national is neither a Union citizen nor can they cross the border to The Netherlands without first obtaining a visa?
I think there are two more parts that are a bit 'unclear':

accompanied by the EEA national or joining the EEA national (not a Dutch national*) who is moving to or residing in the Netherlands: no visa required. Please note that the residence permit must be endorsed in a valid passport or travel document and that you may be requested by the immigration authorities to provide documentary proof of the relationship (e.g. original birth, marriage or civil partnership certificate) and of the use of the right of free movement of the EEA national (e.g. a registration certificate).

1 - The Home Office is kind of Discouraging people from getting registered with them and therefore many many EU residents don't have a residency card but it might be requested to enter the Netherlands as a proof of the right of free movement....

2- I'm living with my un-married partner. Do I need to bring with me 2kg of papers to prove that we have been together for 2 years? Obtaining an EEA residency card for her is not enough?

giruz

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:31 pm

giruzz wrote:
86ti wrote:Look at the Dutch's embassy web page.

EDIT:
The "best" part at the bottom:

*Please note that EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC.

Aha, e.g. a German married to a non EEA national is neither a Union citizen nor can they cross the border to The Netherlands without first obtaining a visa?
I think there are two more parts that are a bit 'unclear':

accompanied by the EEA national or joining the EEA national (not a Dutch national*) who is moving to or residing in the Netherlands: no visa required. Please note that the residence permit must be endorsed in a valid passport or travel document and that you may be requested by the immigration authorities to provide documentary proof of the relationship (e.g. original birth, marriage or civil partnership certificate) and of the use of the right of free movement of the EEA national (e.g. a registration certificate).

1 - The Home Office is kind of Discouraging people from getting registered with them and therefore many many EU residents don't have a residency card but it might be requested to enter the Netherlands as a proof of the right of free movement....

2- I'm living with my un-married partner. Do I need to bring with me 2kg of papers to prove that we have been together for 2 years? Obtaining an EEA residency card for her is not enough?

giruz
(I wanted to say of course: a German who lived all his/her life in Germany ...)

Point 1 makes sense only together with this bottom part. You have to prove that you are residing outside your home country according to their opinion.

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:34 am

86ti wrote:Look at the Dutch's embassy web page.

EDIT:
The "best" part at the bottom:

*Please note that EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore do not come under the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC.

Aha, e.g. a German married to a non EEA national is neither a Union citizen nor can they cross the border to The Netherlands without first obtaining a visa?
I wanted to say of course a German who lived all his/her life in Germany and married to...

I find it strange that an official web page of a foreign ministry states that Union citizenship would depend on the right of free movement. According to Article 17 of the EC treaty every EU national is automatically a Union citizen. The right of free movement is merely a consequence of that.

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:21 pm

I just received this answer from the Duch Ministry for Foreign Affairs.
The email I sent them was before the Dutch Embassy updated the webpage on their website.

Dear Mr XXXXXXXXX,

With apologies for the delay in answering, I can provide you with the following information.

In your email, you refer to Directive 2004/38. According to this directive, any family member accompanying or joining an EU/EEA citizen to another Member State than that of which the EU citizen holds his nationality, can either travel without a visa or with a visa issued free of charge. This depends on the type of residence card held by the family member. If the family member has a residence permit with the text 'Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA national', it is possible to travel without a visa. If the family member holds a different type of residence card, he will need to show proof of his identity and his relationship with the EU citizen and will then be eligible for a visa issued free of charge.

If your partner thus has a 'Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA national', she can travel without a visa if she travels together with you or joins you.
If your partner has a different residence card, she can be eligible for a visa issued free of charge. In that case, she will have to show proof of identity, proof of the durable relationship and hand in a visa application form (on which is indicated which questions will need to be answered).

As I understood, your partner's residence permit is, unfortunately, not endorsed in her passport. The Border Control has informed me that this should, however, not prove problematic at the border as long as it is a correct permit.

Finally, I would advise you and your partner to carry not only passports and residence permits with you on your travel, but also proof of your relationship as Border Control may ask for this when you enter the Netherlands.


WoW!

Pasha
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Post by Pasha » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:08 pm

I have also had problem with a Schengen Visa application because my residence card is not stamped in my passports...see...

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... highlight=

I have had a look at the notes posted on the BIA website and the A4 sheet of paper where your residence card was stamped is valid and is a residence card..just not endorsed into your passport.

The Residence card has a unique number which can be crossed checked. And, I would suggest you print out a copy of the information posted on the BIA website about Issuing residence cards as it specifically mentions that the residence card may be issued on a separate piece of paper. If you look on this A4 sheet pf paper there is a form number which ties to the fact that it is a Residence Card issued to a Family Member of an EEA National. It is a legal immigration docuement and would not have been issued if the correct formalities had not been seen and checked by the Home Office. See chapter 7 on..

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... dlaw/ecis/

Take a print out of this when you travel.

Now the problem is that the Embassies in London say that it is their practice to not accept applications from family members of an EEA-National where the permit is not stamped in the passport. This is very much an entriely different case to being rejected a Schengen Visa. This is an 'in-house' practice by Embassies to have the stamp in the applicants passport. I contacted Signpost about it who said that I should contact Solvit about it as it should not ordinarly be a problem (but it seems as though it is).

To add insult to injury, to get the Residence card tranferred to your passport can take up to 6 months by the Home Office who as far as they are concerned 'have done their job' by issuing the residence card on a separate sheet of paper.... Very fustrating...

republique
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Post by republique » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:58 pm

giruzz wrote:I just received this answer from the Duch Ministry for Foreign Affairs.
The email I sent them was before the Dutch Embassy updated the webpage on their website.

Dear Mr XXXXXXXXX,

With apologies for the delay in answering, I can provide you with the following information.

In your email, you refer to Directive 2004/38. According to this directive, any family member accompanying or joining an EU/EEA citizen to another Member State than that of which the EU citizen holds his nationality, can either travel without a visa or with a visa issued free of charge. This depends on the type of residence card held by the family member. If the family member has a residence permit with the text 'Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA national', it is possible to travel without a visa. If the family member holds a different type of residence card, he will need to show proof of his identity and his relationship with the EU citizen and will then be eligible for a visa issued free of charge.

If your partner thus has a 'Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA national', she can travel without a visa if she travels together with you or joins you.
If your partner has a different residence card, she can be eligible for a visa issued free of charge. In that case, she will have to show proof of identity, proof of the durable relationship and hand in a visa application form (on which is indicated which questions will need to be answered).

As I understood, your partner's residence permit is, unfortunately, not endorsed in her passport. The Border Control has informed me that this should, however, not prove problematic at the border as long as it is a correct permit.

Finally, I would advise you and your partner to carry not only passports and residence permits with you on your travel, but also proof of your relationship as Border Control may ask for this when you enter the Netherlands.


WoW!
i find it highly hypocrticial that the dutch would have an issue of residence cards not issued in a passport, their residence permits are not placed in passports either. you get a sticker upon your appication and if approved you get a seperate residence card so why they are making a stink about it being in your passport is beyond me

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:40 pm

Pasha wrote:
To add insult to injury, to get the Residence card tranferred to your passport can take up to 6 months by the Home Office who as far as they are concerned 'have done their job' by issuing the residence card on a separate sheet of paper.... Very fustrating...
Look. Last year I booked some tickets to Paris and to Holland..that would have been my first EU trip with my gf.

We are supposed to leave next Thursday but, as first sign of luck the Dutch visa was refused because the residency card was not endorsed in the passport.

So we sent back the passports to the home office, we were told 10days ago that the passport (with endorsed residency card) were on the way back...and still haven't received anything (as a matter of fact as today we found out that they haven't been posted).

In the meantime the Dutch changed the rules and so no visa.

Nevertheless, their embassy website states that the residency card MUST be endorsed in the passport.

At the same time the French refused to issue the visa because the residency card wasn't endorsed and therefore if we leave on Thursday we will be unable to go from Amsterdam to Paris (which means we already lost the tickets)..because they don't recognize the Brit Res Card.

If the passport arrives before Thursday we might be able to fly to Amsterdam at least....very very very poor organization from the Home Office and very poor management and co-ordination from the EU Embassies in London.

Just a nice way to blow 300pounds....

giruzz

mym
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Post by mym » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:35 am

giruzz wrote:therefore if we leave on Thursday we will be unable to go from Amsterdam to Paris
If you get to Amsterdam you are in Schengen, there are no checks between Schengen states, so how will anyone even know you went to Paris?
--
Mark Y-M
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mym
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Post by mym » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:37 am

duplicate message
Last edited by mym on Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
--
Mark Y-M
London

mym
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Post by mym » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:38 am

duplicate message
--
Mark Y-M
London

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:03 am

republique wrote:[i find it highly hypocrticial that the dutch would have an issue of residence cards not issued in a passport, their residence permits are not placed in passports either. you get a sticker upon your appication and if approved you get a seperate residence card so why they are making a stink about it being in your passport is beyond me
As far as I know many EU countries issue residence permits in form of a card and it is actually the UK who is doing things differently. But if I'm wrong correct me.

What I still don't understand is what is the purpose of sticking the residence "card" on an A4 paper when they have the passport anyway?

Wasn't there a EU regulations which makes it clear how residence permits are supposed to look like?

BTW, does the UK accept residence permits of other EEA countries as substitute for a visa?

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:04 am

duplicate message deleted

giruzz
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Post by giruzz » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:33 am

mym wrote:
giruzz wrote:therefore if we leave on Thursday we will be unable to go from Amsterdam to Paris
If you get to Amsterdam you are in Schengen, there are no checks between Schengen states, so how will anyone even know you went to Paris?
Beucause France requires a schengen Visa. If there is a police check and the French found that she doesn't have a valid visa she might be detained and deported (to Thailand)....

The embassy told us that she will be illegal if she enters France.

giruzz

mym
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Post by mym » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:44 pm

86ti wrote:BTW, does the UK accept residence permits of other EEA countries as substitute for a visa?
No, though they should. They have chosen to interpret the Regulations as referring only to UK issued cards. Another court case waiting to happen imo.
--
Mark Y-M
London

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