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EEA family member require airline ticket for Spanish visa

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pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:59 pm

mcovet wrote:the problem is that you have the PR sticker which does not say "family member" etc. but I presume your RC is still in the passport? Then you only show this at the border and travel without the visa with the marriage certificate.

And on a practical note, there isn't much anyone can do against a foreign consulate. By the time you get your voice heard (which I can't imagine) you will have been a British citizen for several years :D

Complaints to Solvit etc are shaky, mixed reports on people being successful. The problem with them REFUSING you a visa is that if you then travel with your wife and the border police see the refusal, you can imagine their reaction and further questions.

So, it's up to you, why don't you simply book flexible tickets, fully refundable and then cancel them after you get your visa. They are more expensive but you get your money back. And then you complain to Solvit about the practices of the Spanish.

P.S. did you submit your bank statements as proof of residence? I presume you did, and if so, it is the same as with the airline tickets, unnecessary in any sense! Just read their description in the link Jambo provided, it also mentions proof of travel to Spain so, even though illegal, they are at least consistent.
Thanks mcovet for your valuable comments!

We already have decided not to go this year and cancelled our travel plan to Spain after these all painful experience. My British nationality is due in December this year anyway so better travel after getting British Naturalization... and save money for it as it will also cost fortune to get BN.

Do you think they would put REJECTION on my passport? I don't think they could do this to EEA family member.

mcovet
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Post by mcovet » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:09 pm

From what I know, when one applies, upon receiving the application, they place a stamp on the page where the Schengen visa should go (if I remember correctly). If it is rejected, they normally don't just give it back saying it's incomplete, they simply reject it.

I will be honestly surprised if they rejected it, and it's likely that you will get your visa even without the tickets.

Remember that the process of naturalisation takes on average 3-4 months, then you have to attend a citizenship ceremony (another 2-3 weeks' wait) and finally apply for a passport- around 1 to 1.5 months. so you are looking at your next holiday some time summer next year...are you sure you wanna allow these muppets to ruin your winter holidays?

The application for naturalisation- £851, ceremony free (unless you go private- around £100-£150) and first adult passport- £84.50 including Check & Send service at the post office.

That's around £910 altogether. Anyway, you don't really need a visa to travel together.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:16 pm

mcovet wrote:From what I know, when one applies, upon receiving the application, they place a stamp on the page where the Schengen visa should go (if I remember correctly). If it is rejected, they normally don't just give it back saying it's incomplete, they simply reject it.

I will be honestly surprised if they rejected it, and it's likely that you will get your visa even without the tickets.

Remember that the process of naturalisation takes on average 3-4 months, then you have to attend a citizenship ceremony (another 2-3 weeks' wait) and finally apply for a passport- around 1 to 1.5 months. so you are looking at your next holiday some time summer next year...are you sure you wanna allow these muppets to ruin your winter holidays?

The application for naturalisation- £851, ceremony free (unless you go private- around £100-£150) and first adult passport- £84.50 including Check & Send service at the post office.

That's around £910 altogether. Anyway, you don't really need a visa to travel together.
I don't have a choice. I really don't want to provide document which is not legally require. They also told me that even if I give them my tickets, then again it would take at least 4 weeks to re-process my application which is again against my rights and I may not be able to receive my passport on time before my flight. They are not treating me as a EEA family member or they don't know the law.

mcovet
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Post by mcovet » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:38 pm

cool, then why don't you withdraw your application and request your passport back to avoid any unnecessary stamps.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:55 pm

mcovet wrote:cool, then why don't you withdraw your application and request your passport back to avoid any unnecessary stamps.
If they reject my visa then it will go in my favour anyway. Legally they cannot refuse visa to me except for reasons of "public policy, public security or public health. My marriage certificate alone should be suffice to proof my EEA family member status. I need in writting proof that they reject my visa on what ground, so that I could take necessary actions. If they put REJECT on my passport then, my case would be more strong. In addtion I also paid £17 service charges. I will not give up until i take some actions against them.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:32 pm

I just received an email reply from europe advise enquiry below (copied): However, it is now confirmed that EEA PR holder can indeed travel without visa if travelling with EEA spouse.
=============

Dear Mr. xxx,

You do not need a visa to enter Spain, since your UK permanent residence card as a family member of an EU national and your passport are enough as travel documents to travel to Spain accompanied by your Lithuanian wife or to join her in Spain. It is quite surprising that the Spanish consulate in the UK has not informed you correctly about your rights.

In this respect, considering that you hold a UK permanent residence card as family member of an EU national you are entitled to enter into and move within the European Economic Area (the “EEA”, which is integrated by all Member States of the EU, including Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) when travelling accompanied by your wife or to join her. Moreover, under article 5.2 of Directive 2004/38/EC (Right of Entry) on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, such residence cards replace visas for short term residence (for up to three months).

Moreover, under the EU law (article 6.2 of Directive 2004/38/EC) you are entitled to stay in Spain (or in any other EEA country) for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid passport, insofar as you stay in Spain (or EEA country) with your wife.

In this regard, I advise you that you browse the Commission websites on the matter:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens ... ?profile=0
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 152_en.htm

These EU rules have been implemented into Spanish legislation under Royal Decree 240/2007, which article 4.2 (paragraph 2) clearly sets forth that third-country nationals who are family members of EU citizens and who hold a valid residence card of a family member of an EU citizen issued by another Member State of the EEA are exempted from the obligation of obtaining a visa to enter into Spanish territory.

In this context, I suggest that you confirm with a Spanish consulate in the UK what concrete travel documents you may be required to present when entering Spain in the light of your concrete circumstances. Moreover, to avoid any last minute problem, I also recommend that you check with the airline company what travel documents they will require you at the check-in and boarding.

In the light of the above, in case you had any problem to enforce your right of entry in Spain with you wife, I advise you that you contact the Solvit centre in the UK:
Contact person: Chris Korcz
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
1 Victoria Street
UK - London SW1H 0ET
Tel. +44 20 7215 2833
Fax. +44 20 7215 2234
solvit@bis.gsi.gov.uk
Solvit is an on-line problem solving network in which EU Member States work together to solve without legal proceedings problems caused by the misapplication of Internal Market law by public authorities: http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/about/index_en.htm

I hope you find this information useful.

Best regards,

Your Europe – Advice

To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice, but do not reply to this e-mail.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:51 pm

While this letter is nice, it has a couple of flaws. It advises you to check with EasyJet and with the embassy as to the documentation you will require. EasyJet you will not be able to get through to, and the embassy has already said you require a visa.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:. EasyJet you will not be able to get through to, and the embassy has already said you require a visa.
When I applied to vfs global, they also advice me that I can travel without visa if my visa says 'family member of an eea and if travelling together (They were not pretty sure due to my PR). However, they also advice me that I can also apply for visa if I wish to avoid any problem at the airport etc.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:59 am

I received a message that the decision on my application has been taken and my passport is ready to collect, so I am going tomorrow to collect it.

I can feel the decision.... "REJECTED". Hope they explain the decision on the letter...

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:17 pm

pinkpanter wrote:I received a message that the decision on my application has been taken and my passport is ready to collect, so I am going tomorrow to collect it.

I can feel the decision.... "REJECTED". Hope they explain the decision on the letter...
They are required to explain. Do not leave the office until you have an explanation in writing. But they probably did not refuse in any case. I can feel the VISA!

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:24 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
pinkpanter wrote:I received a message that the decision on my application has been taken and my passport is ready to collect, so I am going tomorrow to collect it.

I can feel the decision.... "REJECTED". Hope they explain the decision on the letter...
They are required to explain. Do not leave the office until you have an explanation in writing. But they probably did not refuse in any case. I can feel the VISA!
Thanks Derective/2004/38/EC,

Unfortunately, the visa has been refused. They give me a standard format sort of letter on which they just ticked (X) the appropriate fields according to my situation. example:

The Spanish Consulate General in London has:

1) (X) examined your visa application
3) (X) The visa has been refused

This decision is based on the following reason(s):

(There are 12 reasons and they select (ticked X) number 2 which says:)


2) (X) justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay was not provided.

At the end of the letter they give me right of appeal witin a month. and stamp of the spanish consulate.

They also stamp on my passport which state ' VISA APPLIED ON 27/09/2012 at Spanish consulate london.
I don't understand as a family member of an EEA, they refused on the ground that 'justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stat was not provided'. which is clearly against my freedom of movment right...!!

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:40 pm

Perhaps the Spanish forgot the court case they lost in 2003

see Case C-157/03 EU Commission vs Kingdom of Spain
the resident permit was refused because the Spanish claim the
the EU family member must state the reason for entry when applying
for the entry visa.
Result: Spain lost at the ECJ

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... f=C-157/03
1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.
31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:33 pm

acme4242 wrote:Perhaps the Spanish forgot the court case they lost in 2003

see Case C-157/03 EU Commission vs Kingdom of Spain
the resident permit was refused because the Spanish claim the
the EU family member must state the reason for entry when applying
for the entry visa.
Result: Spain lost at the ECJ

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... f=C-157/03
1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.
31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"
Thanks acme4242,

the case you mentioned is very useful info for me. I have done draft letter for my complaint, which i am going to send to EU commission with proof of all correspondence between Spanish consulate and I with further documents letter provided etc..

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:49 pm

You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:28 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!.
I had applied for visa in the first instance. Please see my first thread below for details. I will indeed complaint as much as I can.
Hi Guys,

I just need advice from someone who have faced same experience as what I am facing now.

I have PR (EEA) and me and my wife (EEA national) are traveling to spain within two weeks time. I applied for visa and didn't pay any fee because of an EEA family member. Yesterday, I received a message requesting further documents that they also require my airline ticket details. I already have explained to them that there is no legal requirement for this documents if you are an EEA family member but, they still insist that Spanish consulate want to see my airline ticket. We didn't book any ticket yet as we want to confirm my visa arrangement first before making our traveling arrangement.

My spouse now write a letter and explain the above on it that why we cannot show our ticket and also reference to the EEA family member right as per Directive/2004/34/EU etc. I am going tomorrow to give this letter to them at vfs office.

I would be grateful if anyone with same experience could share their experience and how they dealt with this situation? Many thanks!

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:41 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.
Sorry, came out wrong, I'd meant to type should not have had to. Sorry.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:39 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.
Sorry, came out wrong, I'd meant to type should not have had to. Sorry.
I also understand but, I don't want to take a risk with airline or at airport and ruined my holidays. I have applied visa in the past in other eu member states and always got within 3 to 5 working days without fuss. Also it is advice by european commission on their website to apply for visa is best option to avoid any hassle.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:45 pm

pinkpanter wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.
Sorry, came out wrong, I'd meant to type should not have had to. Sorry.
I also understand but, I don't want to take a risk with airline or at airport and ruined my holidays. I have applied visa in the past in other eu member states and always got within 3 to 5 working days without fuss. Also it is advice by european commission on their website to apply for visa is best option to avoid any hassle.
Just for update:

I just received an email from SOLVIT that they have started reviewing my case and SOLVIT Lithuania (Ministry of Economy) is dealing with my case. They also asked me to provide copies of mine and my EEA wife's ID, Marriage certificate, PR/RC details for further investigation.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:21 pm

I just received an email from SOLVIT. Pleae see below:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for the documents provided. Please be informed that I have transferred your case with my legal findings to Spanish Solvit centre which has to solve this problem. I will inform you as soon as I will get the solution from Spanish Solvit centre.

Not sure what next...!!! :arrow:

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:21 am

I received an email from Lithuanian SOLVIT centre and asked me to provide:

Due to this case and trouble, how much this dispute would cost me for the next twelve months?

I am confused and don't know the answer.... Shall I give them the cost of any legal action I would take?? :?: or say no cost

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