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EEA family member require airline ticket for Spanish visa

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pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:32 pm

I just received an email reply from europe advise enquiry below (copied): However, it is now confirmed that EEA PR holder can indeed travel without visa if travelling with EEA spouse.
=============

Dear Mr. xxx,

You do not need a visa to enter Spain, since your UK permanent residence card as a family member of an EU national and your passport are enough as travel documents to travel to Spain accompanied by your Lithuanian wife or to join her in Spain. It is quite surprising that the Spanish consulate in the UK has not informed you correctly about your rights.

In this respect, considering that you hold a UK permanent residence card as family member of an EU national you are entitled to enter into and move within the European Economic Area (the “EEA”, which is integrated by all Member States of the EU, including Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein) when travelling accompanied by your wife or to join her. Moreover, under article 5.2 of Directive 2004/38/EC (Right of Entry) on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, such residence cards replace visas for short term residence (for up to three months).

Moreover, under the EU law (article 6.2 of Directive 2004/38/EC) you are entitled to stay in Spain (or in any other EEA country) for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid passport, insofar as you stay in Spain (or EEA country) with your wife.

In this regard, I advise you that you browse the Commission websites on the matter:
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens ... ?profile=0
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 152_en.htm

These EU rules have been implemented into Spanish legislation under Royal Decree 240/2007, which article 4.2 (paragraph 2) clearly sets forth that third-country nationals who are family members of EU citizens and who hold a valid residence card of a family member of an EU citizen issued by another Member State of the EEA are exempted from the obligation of obtaining a visa to enter into Spanish territory.

In this context, I suggest that you confirm with a Spanish consulate in the UK what concrete travel documents you may be required to present when entering Spain in the light of your concrete circumstances. Moreover, to avoid any last minute problem, I also recommend that you check with the airline company what travel documents they will require you at the check-in and boarding.

In the light of the above, in case you had any problem to enforce your right of entry in Spain with you wife, I advise you that you contact the Solvit centre in the UK:
Contact person: Chris Korcz
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
1 Victoria Street
UK - London SW1H 0ET
Tel. +44 20 7215 2833
Fax. +44 20 7215 2234
solvit@bis.gsi.gov.uk
Solvit is an on-line problem solving network in which EU Member States work together to solve without legal proceedings problems caused by the misapplication of Internal Market law by public authorities: http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/about/index_en.htm

I hope you find this information useful.

Best regards,

Your Europe – Advice

To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice, but do not reply to this e-mail.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:51 pm

While this letter is nice, it has a couple of flaws. It advises you to check with EasyJet and with the embassy as to the documentation you will require. EasyJet you will not be able to get through to, and the embassy has already said you require a visa.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:28 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:. EasyJet you will not be able to get through to, and the embassy has already said you require a visa.
When I applied to vfs global, they also advice me that I can travel without visa if my visa says 'family member of an eea and if travelling together (They were not pretty sure due to my PR). However, they also advice me that I can also apply for visa if I wish to avoid any problem at the airport etc.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:59 am

I received a message that the decision on my application has been taken and my passport is ready to collect, so I am going tomorrow to collect it.

I can feel the decision.... "REJECTED". Hope they explain the decision on the letter...

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:17 pm

pinkpanter wrote:I received a message that the decision on my application has been taken and my passport is ready to collect, so I am going tomorrow to collect it.

I can feel the decision.... "REJECTED". Hope they explain the decision on the letter...
They are required to explain. Do not leave the office until you have an explanation in writing. But they probably did not refuse in any case. I can feel the VISA!

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:24 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
pinkpanter wrote:I received a message that the decision on my application has been taken and my passport is ready to collect, so I am going tomorrow to collect it.

I can feel the decision.... "REJECTED". Hope they explain the decision on the letter...
They are required to explain. Do not leave the office until you have an explanation in writing. But they probably did not refuse in any case. I can feel the VISA!
Thanks Derective/2004/38/EC,

Unfortunately, the visa has been refused. They give me a standard format sort of letter on which they just ticked (X) the appropriate fields according to my situation. example:

The Spanish Consulate General in London has:

1) (X) examined your visa application
3) (X) The visa has been refused

This decision is based on the following reason(s):

(There are 12 reasons and they select (ticked X) number 2 which says:)


2) (X) justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay was not provided.

At the end of the letter they give me right of appeal witin a month. and stamp of the spanish consulate.

They also stamp on my passport which state ' VISA APPLIED ON 27/09/2012 at Spanish consulate london.
I don't understand as a family member of an EEA, they refused on the ground that 'justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stat was not provided'. which is clearly against my freedom of movment right...!!

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:40 pm

Perhaps the Spanish forgot the court case they lost in 2003

see Case C-157/03 EU Commission vs Kingdom of Spain
the resident permit was refused because the Spanish claim the
the EU family member must state the reason for entry when applying
for the entry visa.
Result: Spain lost at the ECJ

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... f=C-157/03
1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.
31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:33 pm

acme4242 wrote:Perhaps the Spanish forgot the court case they lost in 2003

see Case C-157/03 EU Commission vs Kingdom of Spain
the resident permit was refused because the Spanish claim the
the EU family member must state the reason for entry when applying
for the entry visa.
Result: Spain lost at the ECJ

http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/f ... f=C-157/03
1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.
31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"
Thanks acme4242,

the case you mentioned is very useful info for me. I have done draft letter for my complaint, which i am going to send to EU commission with proof of all correspondence between Spanish consulate and I with further documents letter provided etc..

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:49 pm

You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:28 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!.
I had applied for visa in the first instance. Please see my first thread below for details. I will indeed complaint as much as I can.
Hi Guys,

I just need advice from someone who have faced same experience as what I am facing now.

I have PR (EEA) and me and my wife (EEA national) are traveling to spain within two weeks time. I applied for visa and didn't pay any fee because of an EEA family member. Yesterday, I received a message requesting further documents that they also require my airline ticket details. I already have explained to them that there is no legal requirement for this documents if you are an EEA family member but, they still insist that Spanish consulate want to see my airline ticket. We didn't book any ticket yet as we want to confirm my visa arrangement first before making our traveling arrangement.

My spouse now write a letter and explain the above on it that why we cannot show our ticket and also reference to the EEA family member right as per Directive/2004/34/EU etc. I am going tomorrow to give this letter to them at vfs office.

I would be grateful if anyone with same experience could share their experience and how they dealt with this situation? Many thanks!

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:41 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.
Sorry, came out wrong, I'd meant to type should not have had to. Sorry.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:39 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.
Sorry, came out wrong, I'd meant to type should not have had to. Sorry.
I also understand but, I don't want to take a risk with airline or at airport and ruined my holidays. I have applied visa in the past in other eu member states and always got within 3 to 5 working days without fuss. Also it is advice by european commission on their website to apply for visa is best option to avoid any hassle.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:45 pm

pinkpanter wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:You should have had to apply for the visa in the first instance!

Now, I think you understand this very well already. Please complain as much as you can.
Sorry, came out wrong, I'd meant to type should not have had to. Sorry.
I also understand but, I don't want to take a risk with airline or at airport and ruined my holidays. I have applied visa in the past in other eu member states and always got within 3 to 5 working days without fuss. Also it is advice by european commission on their website to apply for visa is best option to avoid any hassle.
Just for update:

I just received an email from SOLVIT that they have started reviewing my case and SOLVIT Lithuania (Ministry of Economy) is dealing with my case. They also asked me to provide copies of mine and my EEA wife's ID, Marriage certificate, PR/RC details for further investigation.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:21 pm

I just received an email from SOLVIT. Pleae see below:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for the documents provided. Please be informed that I have transferred your case with my legal findings to Spanish Solvit centre which has to solve this problem. I will inform you as soon as I will get the solution from Spanish Solvit centre.

Not sure what next...!!! :arrow:

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:21 am

I received an email from Lithuanian SOLVIT centre and asked me to provide:

Due to this case and trouble, how much this dispute would cost me for the next twelve months?

I am confused and don't know the answer.... Shall I give them the cost of any legal action I would take?? :?: or say no cost

andrej
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Post by andrej » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:56 pm

pinkpanter wrote:I received an email from Lithuanian SOLVIT centre and asked me to provide:

Due to this case and trouble, how much this dispute would cost me for the next twelve months?

I am confused and don't know the answer.... Shall I give them the cost of any legal action I would take?? :?: or say no cost
I totally understand why you applied for the visa as it is easier than to argue with airline people and border guards.

What I want to ask is if you thought about applying for a Schengen visa of your wife's home country which you will get easily and then going with it to Spain.

As far as Spanish IOs are concerned, you are just taking a long way around until you get to your destination. ALso if you don't mind an extra expense and a longer flight, visit your wife's family for a day and then go to Spain from there. I know people who applied for an Italian Schengen, because it was easier to get and then went to Holland or Germany without a problem.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:37 pm

Give an accurate estimate of how much it will cost for you to fully achieve your EU free movement rights. I would include the cost of my time, as well as hiring legal assistance.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:14 am

andrej wrote:
pinkpanter wrote:I received an email from Lithuanian SOLVIT centre and asked me to provide:

Due to this case and trouble, how much this dispute would cost me for the next twelve months?

I am confused and don't know the answer.... Shall I give them the cost of any legal action I would take?? :?: or say no cost
I totally understand why you applied for the visa as it is easier than to argue with airline people and border guards.

What I want to ask is if you thought about applying for a Schengen visa of your wife's home country which you will get easily and then going with it to Spain.

As far as Spanish IOs are concerned, you are just taking a long way around until you get to your destination. ALso if you don't mind an extra expense and a longer flight, visit your wife's family for a day and then go to Spain from there. I know people who applied for an Italian Schengen, because it was easier to get and then went to Holland or Germany without a problem.
If I applied for my wife's country then we would have to go first to my wife's country before enter to Spain and it would cost us more i.e. airline ticket travelling etc. We already have been in my wife country this year February so no point to go their again spacially when we had only limited budget and few annual leave left for our holidays which we wanted to enjoy before winter.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:22 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Give an accurate estimate of how much it will cost for you to fully achieve your EU free movement rights. I would include the cost of my time, as well as hiring legal assistance.
I can estimate the legal assistance cost, but how to estimate the cost for me to achieve my EU rights and the cost of my time. Do I need to charge myself an hour to estimate?? :?

In addition, I am still confused regarding my next action if Spanish SOLVIT stand with their decision....

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:22 pm

pinkpanter wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Give an accurate estimate of how much it will cost for you to fully achieve your EU free movement rights. I would include the cost of my time, as well as hiring legal assistance.
I can estimate the legal assistance cost, but how to estimate the cost for me to achieve my EU rights and the cost of my time. Do I need to charge myself an hour to estimate?? :?

In addition, I am still confused regarding my next action if Spanish SOLVIT stand with their decision....
I would!

Ask solvit what the number is used for. I suspect it for statistical purposes to estimate the value of Solvit's work.

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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:10 am

It has now been 5 1/2 months since I contact SOLVIT and no joy yet. I received an email yesterday stating apologise it has been a long time since I have heard from them. The emails state:

"I know it has been a long time since you have heard from us, but the situation is quite difficult. The EU Commission has received complaints similar to yours and there is a general disagreement on how Member States should act in such situations. I have been informed, that next week there is a meeting regarding this matter in the Commission and, hopefully, I will have a reply by the end of next week. I will inform you in detail of the developments"

I feel now that my case may not be considered and its totally waiste of time and efforts. I am now considering compensation. Please can anyone advice how to go about it?? Much appreciated

jerzy
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Post by jerzy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:33 am

Hi pinkpanter. Could you write you SOLVIT case number, or maybe I could get it from you on PM? I would appreciate.

I have a similar situation and I contacted SOLVIT about it. Polish authorities claim they need a proof that we are about to go to Poland, which in some cases is impossible to provide (in our case going by car from a non-Schengen continental Europe country).

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Post by acme4242 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:34 am

Its really nonsense, in this age of disposable and cheap e-tickets, and refundable hotel bookings. It proves nothing,
To require prior tickets, hotel bookings etc before visa is issued is pointless.
It proves nothing and is an unnecessary barrier to EU citizens.

If the visa is issued under the condition, the EU citizen accompanies,
Then put it on the visa sticker. Its only a border guard who can verify
proof on the day. Everything else is nonsense.
If no EU citizen at immigration check, then visa is not valid, simple as that.

And If they want to ask the question, does the EU citizen intend to
travel, than ask that question, don't ask for tickets and hotel bookings
before visa is issued.

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:50 pm

Agree it's unfortunate, it would appear to come from Schengen states not wanting to issue visas only for the applicant to use it in another state.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:24 pm

pinkpanter wrote:"I know it has been a long time since you have heard from us, but the situation is quite difficult. The EU Commission has received complaints similar to yours and there is a general disagreement on how Member States should act in such situations. I have been informed, that next week there is a meeting regarding this matter in the Commission and, hopefully, I will have a reply by the end of next week. I will inform you in detail of the developments
This is really what they said? Which solvit did you hear from?

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