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EEA family member require airline ticket for Spanish visa

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andrej
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Post by andrej » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:56 pm

pinkpanter wrote:I received an email from Lithuanian SOLVIT centre and asked me to provide:

Due to this case and trouble, how much this dispute would cost me for the next twelve months?

I am confused and don't know the answer.... Shall I give them the cost of any legal action I would take?? :?: or say no cost
I totally understand why you applied for the visa as it is easier than to argue with airline people and border guards.

What I want to ask is if you thought about applying for a Schengen visa of your wife's home country which you will get easily and then going with it to Spain.

As far as Spanish IOs are concerned, you are just taking a long way around until you get to your destination. ALso if you don't mind an extra expense and a longer flight, visit your wife's family for a day and then go to Spain from there. I know people who applied for an Italian Schengen, because it was easier to get and then went to Holland or Germany without a problem.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:37 pm

Give an accurate estimate of how much it will cost for you to fully achieve your EU free movement rights. I would include the cost of my time, as well as hiring legal assistance.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:14 am

andrej wrote:
pinkpanter wrote:I received an email from Lithuanian SOLVIT centre and asked me to provide:

Due to this case and trouble, how much this dispute would cost me for the next twelve months?

I am confused and don't know the answer.... Shall I give them the cost of any legal action I would take?? :?: or say no cost
I totally understand why you applied for the visa as it is easier than to argue with airline people and border guards.

What I want to ask is if you thought about applying for a Schengen visa of your wife's home country which you will get easily and then going with it to Spain.

As far as Spanish IOs are concerned, you are just taking a long way around until you get to your destination. ALso if you don't mind an extra expense and a longer flight, visit your wife's family for a day and then go to Spain from there. I know people who applied for an Italian Schengen, because it was easier to get and then went to Holland or Germany without a problem.
If I applied for my wife's country then we would have to go first to my wife's country before enter to Spain and it would cost us more i.e. airline ticket travelling etc. We already have been in my wife country this year February so no point to go their again spacially when we had only limited budget and few annual leave left for our holidays which we wanted to enjoy before winter.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:22 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Give an accurate estimate of how much it will cost for you to fully achieve your EU free movement rights. I would include the cost of my time, as well as hiring legal assistance.
I can estimate the legal assistance cost, but how to estimate the cost for me to achieve my EU rights and the cost of my time. Do I need to charge myself an hour to estimate?? :?

In addition, I am still confused regarding my next action if Spanish SOLVIT stand with their decision....

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:22 pm

pinkpanter wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Give an accurate estimate of how much it will cost for you to fully achieve your EU free movement rights. I would include the cost of my time, as well as hiring legal assistance.
I can estimate the legal assistance cost, but how to estimate the cost for me to achieve my EU rights and the cost of my time. Do I need to charge myself an hour to estimate?? :?

In addition, I am still confused regarding my next action if Spanish SOLVIT stand with their decision....
I would!

Ask solvit what the number is used for. I suspect it for statistical purposes to estimate the value of Solvit's work.

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:10 am

It has now been 5 1/2 months since I contact SOLVIT and no joy yet. I received an email yesterday stating apologise it has been a long time since I have heard from them. The emails state:

"I know it has been a long time since you have heard from us, but the situation is quite difficult. The EU Commission has received complaints similar to yours and there is a general disagreement on how Member States should act in such situations. I have been informed, that next week there is a meeting regarding this matter in the Commission and, hopefully, I will have a reply by the end of next week. I will inform you in detail of the developments"

I feel now that my case may not be considered and its totally waiste of time and efforts. I am now considering compensation. Please can anyone advice how to go about it?? Much appreciated

jerzy
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Post by jerzy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:33 am

Hi pinkpanter. Could you write you SOLVIT case number, or maybe I could get it from you on PM? I would appreciate.

I have a similar situation and I contacted SOLVIT about it. Polish authorities claim they need a proof that we are about to go to Poland, which in some cases is impossible to provide (in our case going by car from a non-Schengen continental Europe country).

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:34 am

Its really nonsense, in this age of disposable and cheap e-tickets, and refundable hotel bookings. It proves nothing,
To require prior tickets, hotel bookings etc before visa is issued is pointless.
It proves nothing and is an unnecessary barrier to EU citizens.

If the visa is issued under the condition, the EU citizen accompanies,
Then put it on the visa sticker. Its only a border guard who can verify
proof on the day. Everything else is nonsense.
If no EU citizen at immigration check, then visa is not valid, simple as that.

And If they want to ask the question, does the EU citizen intend to
travel, than ask that question, don't ask for tickets and hotel bookings
before visa is issued.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:50 pm

Agree it's unfortunate, it would appear to come from Schengen states not wanting to issue visas only for the applicant to use it in another state.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:24 pm

pinkpanter wrote:"I know it has been a long time since you have heard from us, but the situation is quite difficult. The EU Commission has received complaints similar to yours and there is a general disagreement on how Member States should act in such situations. I have been informed, that next week there is a meeting regarding this matter in the Commission and, hopefully, I will have a reply by the end of next week. I will inform you in detail of the developments
This is really what they said? Which solvit did you hear from?

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:02 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
pinkpanter wrote:"I know it has been a long time since you have heard from us, but the situation is quite difficult. The EU Commission has received complaints similar to yours and there is a general disagreement on how Member States should act in such situations. I have been informed, that next week there is a meeting regarding this matter in the Commission and, hopefully, I will have a reply by the end of next week. I will inform you in detail of the developments
This is really what they said? Which solvit did you hear from?
I copied from my email. From Lithuanian SOLVIT (my spouse country)

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:44 pm

Hi Guys, As promise I update you regarding my case. It seems that these all EEA regualtions are useless. I have been waiting for now almost 11 month and received the following reply today from LITHUANIA SOLVIT. I copied below from my email:

Dear xxx,

I want to inform you, that SOLVIT was not able to find a solution to your case. Again, we apologize for taking such a long time. However, our position still remains that although it would certainly be preferable should all permanent residence cards contain indication that the card is issued under the Directive to a family member of an EU citizen, there is no such explicit requirement under the Directive for permanent residence cards and Member States may not refuse to accept such permanent residence cards where they know that the residence card was issued under the Directive and thus exempts the holder from the visa requirement under the Directive. Marriage certificates are typically a sufficient evidence of family ties and should be accepted in the framework of entry visa applications or residence applications.Having all the above in mind, I would suggest you address your complaint to the EU Commission. You can find the complaint for here: http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/your_rights/ ... rms_en.htm.

SOLVIT Lithuania
Ministry of EconomyGedimino pr. 38, 01104 VilniusTel.: +370 70 664 797Fax: +370 70 664 762 @: solvit@ukmin.lt


Is there any chance for compensation now and if it is then how to start this process? I had waisted my holidays, lot of stress, and despite the complained to SOLVIT, no positive respone after 11 months...

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:38 pm

Please do complain to the European Commission!

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:40 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Please do complain to the European Commission!
I sent the complain to EU commission...Although, I stiil believe it is only waiste of time.

lake1
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Post by lake1 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:54 am

pinkpanter wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Please do complain to the European Commission!
I sent the complain to EU commission...Although, I stiil believe it is only waste of time.
This cases is absolutely crazy and shows the incompetence of the EU at times.

Hope you already have your BC and thus British passport by now, as said by Mcovet over a year ago { And on a practical note, there isn't much anyone can do against a foreign consulate. By the time you get your voice heard (which I can't imagine) you will have been a British citizen for several years } i guess he was right and that is what is finally happening in this case.

All the best with your complaints.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:52 pm

pinkpanter wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Please do complain to the European Commission!
I sent the complain to EU commission...Although, I still believe it is only waste of time.
Waste of time? Possibly. But if you do nothing, then you are guaranteed that nothing will change.

Figure out a different and better way of complaining or creating the change. Do whatever it is you think will work!

pinkpanter
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Post by pinkpanter » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:24 pm

I still haven't heared anything like acknowledgement regarding my complain from EC Commission... I already have sent them reminder of my compalin again this Monday but still no any response yet.

pinkpanter
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Re: EEA family member require airline ticket for Spanish vis

Post by pinkpanter » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:32 pm

Hi Guys,

I finally received response from EU Commission. Please see below copy/paste from the letter.
Dear Mr xxx,

I refer to your complaint concerning the problems you encountered when requesting a visa to travel to Spain which was registered under reference number CHAP(20xx)xxxx (please quote this reference in any further correspondence).

The Commission received a limited number of complaints on similar issues and therefore decided to contact the Spanish authorities on 26 May 2014 (EU PILOT xxxx/xxxx). The Spanish authorities replied to the letter of the Commission on 30 September 2014.

According to the reply of the Spanish authorities, Spanish legislation and practice grant holders of permanent residence cards issued in accordance with Directive 2004/3 8/EC visa free travel. Furthermore, the Spanish authorities deny that additional documents such as hotel and flight reservations are being requested.

The Spanish authorities affirm that their practice is in line with EU law and they kindly request the Commission to inform them in case any of their Consulates is incorrectly applying EU rules.

Please note that the role of the Commission is not that of an appeal body regarding the misapplication of EU law in an individual case, and it enjoys limited authority to carry out investigations in single cases and to substitute the findings and assessments of national courts. The Commission may bring an infringement proceeding against a Member State if it believes that the Member State has breached Union Law. In the case of an administrative practice which infringes Union law, the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice requires the Commission to provide information proving by means of sufficiently documented and detailed proof the existence of an offending administrative practice which must be, to some degree, of a consistent and general nature. Citizens play an essential role in this context and we therefore encourage them to lodge complaints. However, an offending administrative practice of a consistent and general nature cannot be established on the basis of a limited number of individual complaints.

We will thus close your case, unless we receive within four weeks of the date of this letter new information of relevance that might justify further examination of the complaint by our department.

We will however keep your complaint and use it in case we receive additional complaints concerning the issues raised which could indicate the existence of an offending administrative practice of a consistent and general nature.

Please note that it may also be in your interest to make use of the means of redress available at national level, which as a rule enable you to assert your rights more directly and more personally. Where you have suffered damage, only the national courts can award you reparation. Furthermore, since there is a time-limit on national means of redress, unless you use them quickly, you may lose your rights of redress at national level. I believe that this letter gives you sufficient arguments to contest the Spanish authorities' decision also in light of their national practice.

Yours sincerely,
xxx


The letter is just non-sence. Despite the refusal letter that clearly stated that the visa has been refused because THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE PURPOSE AND CONDITIONS OF THE INTENDED STAY WAS NOT PROVIDED.
I am now considering the redress/compensation, but don't know the precedure.

Please can anyone adivce how to preceed my case and claim compensation?
Much appreciated for your help

acme4242
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Re: EEA family member require airline ticket for Spanish vis

Post by acme4242 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:58 pm

the Spanish authorities deny that additional documents such as hotel and flight reservations are being requested.
Spanish Embassy (London)
http://es.vfsglobal.co.uk/london/eea_do ... uired.html
Proof of joint travel to Spain (i.e. confirmed, paid tickets to travel to Spain both for the applicant and the EU/EEA national), or of the intention to join the EU/EEA national who already is in Spain, ie proof of joint accommodation. If you are not able to provide these documents, please apply under the Tourist category and provide the documents listed
Spanish Embassy (Dublin)
http://www.vfsglobal.com/spain/ireland/ ... req.html#1
FAMILY MEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS
Proof they are traveling together or joining the EU spouse
Spanish Embassy SAN FRANCISCO
http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados ... ourist.pdf

9. Planned itinerary/printout of a roundtrip airline ticket: We highly recommend you not purchasing travel
tickets until your visa has been approved.
This is the first 3 I looked up, because there are in English
Are there any Spanish Consulates that don't ask for airline tickets from EU family members

ban.s
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Re: EEA family member require airline ticket for Spanish vis

Post by ban.s » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:44 am

I personally would include a ticket and my interpretation to this is as follows:

A non EEA family member of a EU citizen can avail free movement under Directive/2004/34/EU if (a) travelling with EU family member or (b) travelling to join the family member.

(a) The ticket is an evidence that confirms the non EEA citizen would be travelling together with their EU family member and thus eligible for visa under above directive. Without a ticket one can’t fully justify the purpose and condition of the trip as stated by the Spanish embassy. If the applicant is not providing a ticket please atleast include an additional letter from EU family member confirming that they would be travelling together and specific travel arrangements would be made in due course prior to the travel.

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