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EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

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abdik1980
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EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:59 am

Hi Guys,

I am UK citizen and my parents with following status would like to visit with me to France and Denmark from UK by road through Euro Tunnel. Purpose of visit is only for Tourism and should not be more than 14 days.

- Non - EEA Citizen
- American Green Card Holder
- On 2 years UK visit Visa valid for at least 1 year from now

My question is, can they travel with me to Schengen states without visa under EU treaty rights / free movement as EEA family member. They only have 2 years long UK visitor visa. Many Thanks

Regards,
Abd

Cayos
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Cayos » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:38 am

Hi! I'm afraid "EU family members" are only those who hold EU family member's card. If your parents are on a C-type UK visa, I'm afraid they cannot apply for a Schengen visa from the UK or travel to the Schengen area without a visa. Only UK residence permit holders have the right to apply for a Schengen visa from this country.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:02 pm

Thank you for reply. I have come across following EU court Metock rulling which allows to enter in EU member state without family card I think:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 39599.html

Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 2008CJ0127
Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 1999CJ0459

Any senior member can you please reply? Many Thanks

noajthan
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by noajthan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:16 pm

abdik1980 wrote:Thank you for reply. I have come across following EU court Metock rulling which allows to enter in EU member state without family card I think:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 39599.html

Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 2008CJ0127

Any senior member can you please reply? Many Thanks
This won't help you. Metock relates to non-EEA family members of EEA nationals and prior lawful residence in a member state.

Parents would have to first prove (at the border) their dependency on sponsor.
Trying this you will only encounter delays, questions and stress. Not ideal ingredients for a holiday.
See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/
Note This approach will not work to re-enter UK.

Parents should apply for Schengen visas for the trip.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

abdik1980
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:23 pm

noajthan wrote:
abdik1980 wrote:Thank you for reply. I have come across following EU court Metock rulling which allows to enter in EU member state without family card I think:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 39599.html

Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 2008CJ0127

Any senior member can you please reply? Many Thanks
This won't help you. Metock relates to non-EEA family members of EEA nationals and prior lawful residence in a member state.

Parents would have to first prove (at the border) their dependency on sponsor.
Trying this you will only encounter delays, questions and stress. Not ideal ingredients for a holiday.
See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/0 ... u-citizen/

Parents should apply for Schengen visas for the trip.
Thank you. Can my parents apply Schengen Visa for France / Denmark within UK? They are on 2 years C visit UK family visa. I financially support them and they are dependent on me.

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Casa
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:27 pm

You are aware that a 2 years C visit UK family visa only permits a stay of up to 6 months in the UK within a 12 month rolling period?
This is official guidance:
Your passport/ travel document must have been issued within the last 10 years and have at least 3 months validity after the intended date of departure from the Schengen area.
- You must be resident in the UK
Your UK residency must have at least 3 months validity after the intended date of departure from the Schengen area.
As per the decree 2008-1176 of the 13th of November 2008, the French Consulate, London, is not competent in processing visa applications of people not resident in the UK, i.e. holders of ’C-Visit’ visas or of a British visa valid for 6 months or less. People who are not resident in the UK must apply for their Schengen visas at the French Consulate in their country of residence.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by noajthan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:29 pm

abdik1980 wrote:Thank you. Can my parents apply Schengen Visa for France / Denmark within UK? They are on 2 years C visit UK family visa. I financially support them and they are dependent on me.
Not sure.
It may be they need to be resident in the UK

Suggest check the embassy.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Casa
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:31 pm

noajthan wrote:
abdik1980 wrote:Thank you. Can my parents apply Schengen Visa for France / Denmark within UK? They are on 2 years C visit UK family visa. I financially support them and they are dependent on me.
Not sure.
It may be they need to be resident in the UK

Suggest check the embassy.
@Noajthan I've just edited my post with an update.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Hamza2013 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:38 pm

Hi Casa,

With regards to minimum 6 montsh stay in Uk of visit visa please see page 17 at following link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 5.0EXT.pdf

Thsi suggest that there is no such rule of staying 6 months in 12 months however advantage can not be taken for this rule.

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Casa
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:44 pm

You've posted a link to an out-of-date archived UKBA document.
As I posted previously, visitors can't be seen to be spending more time in the UK than they are spending in their own country. Hence a stay of more than 6 months in a 12 month rolling period the visitor will be considered as attempting to reside here and the visitor visa will be revoked.
You should be aware of this if your family travel to Europe having exceeded a 6 month stay as they may be refused entry into the UK by the Immigration Officer on their return. This will apply whether travelling by air or the port of entry is via the Euro Tunnel.

V 4.2 The applicant must satisfy the decision maker that they are a genuine visitor. This means that the applicant:
(a) will leave the UK at the end of their visit; and
(b) will not live in the UK for extended periods through frequent or successive visits, or make the UK their main home; and
(c) is genuinely seeking entry for a purpose that is permitted by the visitor routes (these are listed in Appendices 3, 4 and 5);
and
(d) will not undertake any prohibited activities set out in V 4.5 – V 4.10; and
(e) must have sufficient funds to cover all reasonable costs in relation to their visit without working or accessing public funds. This includes the cost of the return or onward journey, any costs relating to dependants, and the cost of planned activities such as private medical treatment.


and
Type of visit Maximum length of stay
Standard visit Up to 6 months, except:(i) a visitor who is coming to the UK for private medical treatment may be granted a visit visa of up to 11 months; or(ii) an academic, who is employed by an overseas institution and is carrying out the specific permitted activities paragraph 12 of Appendix 3,of these Rules, along with their spouse or partner and children, may be granted a visit visa of up to 12 months; or(iii) a visitor under the Approved Destination Status Agreement (ADS Agreement) may be granted a visit visa for a period of up to 30 days.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

abdik1980
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:50 pm

Thank you but I am already aware about UK family visit visa limitations.

My original question is about visiting schengen states with EU citizen without visa from UK.

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Casa
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:59 pm

I'll leave you to it then. I've already posted the French Consulate's guidance and you'll see that C-Visit visa holders can only apply for a Schengen visa from their home country, not while visiting in the UK.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

abdik1980
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:03 pm

Casa wrote:I'll leave you to it then. I've already posted the French Consulate's guidance and you'll see that C-Visit visa holders can only apply for a Schengen visa from their home country, not while visiting in the UK.
Please check this thread:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 39599.html

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:09 pm

abdik1980 wrote:
Casa wrote:I'll leave you to it then. I've already posted the French Consulate's guidance and you'll see that C-Visit visa holders can only apply for a Schengen visa from their home country, not while visiting in the UK.
Please check this thread:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 39599.html
What relevance is there in this 3 year old thread for EEA dependency in Ireland when you're asking for advice on family visiting from the US and need to apply for a Schengen visa to travel to France & Germany? I'm lost. :? I've simply posted the requirements that the French authorities have set for Schengen visa applications. As the saying goes "If you don't like the message, please don't shoot the messenger".
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:40 pm

Also you will see in the thread the following response:
I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your
correspondence of 01/07/2013.
The applicant in question will not be able to submit their application in
the Irish Embassy in London as they will only accept applications from
applicants who hold legal residency in the UK.


i.e The visitor visa failed to qualify as 'legal residency'.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

abdik1980
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:30 pm

Casa wrote:Also you will see in the thread the following response:
I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your
correspondence of 01/07/2013.
The applicant in question will not be able to submit their application in
the Irish Embassy in London as they will only accept applications from
applicants who hold legal residency in the UK.


i.e The visitor visa failed to qualify as 'legal residency'.
Thank you for all you replies. I know one of my friend got Schengen Visa from Belgium Embassy London for his parents on 5 years UK visit visa . I will check my options. Thanks again.

abdik1980
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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:36 pm

I have found another thread:

https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/0 ... u-citizen/

There is no legal requirement that:

The EU citizen is already (or will be) living or working in a different EU member state
The non-EU family member holds a specific immigration visa or status. It is fine for them to have a nationally issued visa or a student visa or a visitor’s visa or even implied status
The family member apply in their country of origin
The family member resides or previously resided in the EU/EEA (This older requirement of some member states was overturned in several ECJ cases, especially Metock)

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by Casa » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:02 pm

noajthan wrote:
abdik1980 wrote:Thank you for reply. I have come across following EU court Metock rulling which allows to enter in EU member state without family card I think:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 39599.html

Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 2008CJ0127

Any senior member can you please reply? Many Thanks
This won't help you. Metock relates to non-EEA family members of EEA nationals and prior lawful residence in a member state.

Parents would have to first prove (at the border) their dependency on sponsor.
Trying this you will only encounter delays, questions and stress. Not ideal ingredients for a holiday.
See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/
Note This approach will not work to re-enter UK.

Parents should apply for Schengen visas for the trip.
This is the same link that Noajthan posted for you earlier in this thread with the above comments.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by noajthan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:32 pm

abdik1980 wrote:I have found another thread:

https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/0 ... u-citizen/

There is no legal requirement that:

The EU citizen is already (or will be) living or working in a different EU member state
The non-EU family member holds a specific immigration visa or status. It is fine for them to have a nationally issued visa or a student visa or a visitor’s visa or even implied status
The family member apply in their country of origin
The family member resides or previously resided in the EU/EEA (This older requirement of some member states was overturned in several ECJ cases, especially Metock)
Try explaining that to the embassy that insists you have to be a legal resident.
I'm looking at you Monsieur ------ embassy.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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EU Citizen Non-EEA Family Member Schengen Visa - Denmark

Post by abdik1980 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:56 pm

Hi Guys,

I need your help. I am British Citizen and would like to visit Denmark for couple of weeks with my Non-EEA parents currently visiting me in UK on 2 year long UK C-Visit Visa. I want to apply their Schengen Visa from Danish Embassy London and sent following email:

------------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much for reply. Please note that there is no lawful residence requirement for EU Family member to apply Schengen visa in any EU member state according to EU law (Directive 2004/38/EC). Therefore my parents can still apply Schengen visa as Family member of EU citizen in UK even they are on long UK C- Visit visa.

Please check here:
Ref: https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/0 ... u-citizen/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no legal requirement that:

The EU citizen is already (or will be) living or working in a different EU member state
The non-EU family member holds a specific immigration visa or status. It is fine for them to have a nationally issued visa or a student visa or a visitor’s visa or even implied status
The family member apply in their country of origin
The family member resides or previously resided in the EU/EEA (This older requirement of some member states was overturned in several ECJ cases, especially Metock)

There is also a decision of ECJ Metock case about no legal residence requirement in member state to apply for visa.

( Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 27:EN:HTML )

Ref: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 2008CJ0127
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moreover, Articles 5, 6(2) and 7(2) of Directive 2004/38 confer the rights of entry, of residence for up to three months, and of residence for more than three months in the host Member State on nationals of non-member countries who are family members of a Union citizen whom they accompany or join in that Member State, without any reference to the place or conditions of residence they had before arriving in that Member State.

In particular, the first subparagraph of Article 5(2) of Directive 2004/38 provides that nationals of non-member countries who are family members of a Union citizen are required to have an entry visa, unless they are in possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 of that directive. In that, as follows from Articles 9(1) and 10(1) of Directive 2004/38, the residence card is the document that evidences the right of residence for more than three months in a Member State of the family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, the fact that Article 5(2) provides for the entry into the host Member State of family members of a Union citizen who do not have a residence card shows that Directive 2004/38 is capable of applying also to family members who were not already lawfully resident in another Member State.

Similarly, Article 10(2) of Directive 2004/38, which lists exhaustively the documents which nationals of non-member countries who are family members of a Union citizen may have to present to the host Member State in order to have a residence card issued, does not provide for the possibility of the host Member State asking for documents to demonstrate any prior lawful residence in another Member State.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I humbly request you to please allow my parents according to EU legislation to apply short stay Schengen Visa as Family member of EU citizen from Danish Embassy London.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Danish Embassy London has replied back:

-----------------------------------------

Please see the following text from the Metock judgement:

As regards family members of a Union citizen, no provision of Directive 2004/38 makes the application of the directive conditional on their having previously resided in a Member State. As Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38 states, the directive applies to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 of the directive who accompany them or join them in that Member State.

As you are a UK national, you are not considered an EU national in the country in which you are a national. Only when you move to or reside in another EU country. The EU Directive cannot therefore apply to your family members in the country where you are a national, i.e. the UK.

-------------------------------------


Please correct me If I am wrong my parents should be considered as family member of EEA citizen as they are seeking entry to third country which is denmark not UK and embassy stance is wrong. Your help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by noajthan » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:28 pm

My understanding is, the embassy is correct that you are not an Union citizen exercising treaty rights whilst you are in the UK (home country);
so whilst in UK your family are not your family members in the EU context of treaty rights.

If you present yourself at another Union state border you would transform yourself into an EEA citizen exercising free movement rights at that point.
The challenge ofcourse may well be to get on a plane that takes you to that border entry point.

As explained previously, if you present at a border with your parents you will have to prove their dependency on you for them to be recognised as your direct family members (ascending):
http://www.immigrationboards.com/europe ... l#p1357114

Much simpler, if you wish to visit the Schengen area is to get a Schengen visa.
Or simply visit somewhere that is visa-free.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:24 am

noajthan wrote:My understanding is, the embassy is correct that you are not an Union citizen exercising treaty rights whilst you are in the UK (home country);
so whilst in UK your family are not your family members in the EU context of treaty rights.

If you present yourself at another Union state border you would transform yourself into an EEA citizen exercising free movement rights at that point.
The challenge ofcourse may well be to get on a plane that takes you to that border entry point.

As explained previously, if you present at a border with your parents you will have to prove their dependency on you for them to be recognised as your direct family members (ascending):
http://www.immigrationboards.com/europe ... l#p1357114

Much simpler, if you wish to visit the Schengen area is to get a Schengen visa.
Or simply visit somewhere that is visa-free.

Thank you.

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Re: EU Citizen Non-EEA Famlily Member on UK Visit Visa

Post by abdik1980 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:29 am

Update: Denmark embassy in London initially refused to accept my parents application for Schengen Visa as they are not resident in UK but after complaint with Solvit they have now issued Schengen Visa to my parents as Family Member of EU Citizen (British Citizen). I applied 2 days before EU Referendum in UK. Thank you very much for all your help. :)

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