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To be honest I'm a little sickened by this. Most of these countries/territories are some of the poorest areas in the world and yet citizens of my country, South Africa, by far the biggest economy in Africa, continue to require a visa to visit Schengenland.joesoap101 wrote:The requirement to obtain a Schengen visa will soon be removed for nationals of:
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Barbados
Mauritius
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Seychelles
This exemption will come into force when the above countries conclude their visa agreements with the EU.
In addition to this Bolivia will be added to the visa-required category from April 2007.
I agree that Bermuda and Bahamas are relatively wealthy. I've been to Mauritius and Seychelles and can confidently say that the vast majority of their citizens live in devastating poverty, so the decision to include them on the list baffles me.joesoap101 wrote:The Bahamas ($20,200 PPP), Barbados ($17,300 PPP) arent exactly poor but the rest are relatively poor. There are two things that count in their favour - all are island nations and their combimed population is a tiny 2 014 000. I know the Bahamas has been moaning for years about being on the Schengen black list.
So it seems that the first 'african' countries to be on the Schengen white list is Mauritius and the Seychelles.
I generally welcome any additions to the vise exempt list, and I believe Bolivia should have been removed years ago.
I suppose if you had to ask the ministers about South Africa they would say that they don't have confidence in the passport issuing mechanism etc etc
Yes, sorryJAJ wrote:Bermuda is a British Overseas Territory and since 2002, Bermudians are full British citizens.Dawie wrote: I agree that Bermuda and Bahamas are relatively wealthy.
Did you mean Barbados?
Of course I did.....I suspect Spain and Portugal have played a large part in guaranteeing visa-free access for a lot of Central and South American countries. Unfortunately because the United Kingdom is not part of the Schengen agreement the UK has never been able to influence visa-free access to Schengenland for countries that used to be British colonies like South Africa and Botswana, even though the UK itself doesn't require visas for these countries.joesoap101 wrote:Bolivians will be required to have visa from 1st of april. They finally realised that the visa free regime was abused especially by bolivians. But the reality is that europe is full of illegal immigrants from south america. Although its politically incorrect and a somewhat taboo issue for the EU but unfortunately their policies take on a distinct facial profile based on prejudice. South Africa being a good example because outside of europe the visa free access is good.
Or alternatively, the UK would find its visa regime dictated by other countries that do not appreciate the specific interests of the United Kingdom. There is little evidence to suggest that Britain has - or has ever had - any real "influence" in Europe.Dawie wrote:Unfortunately because the United Kingdom is not part of the Schengen agreement the UK has never been able to influence visa-free access to Schengenland for countries that used to be British colonies like South Africa and Botswana, even though the UK itself doesn't require visas for these countries.
I suspect that it would have been before the mid 1980s when many countries imposed sanctions.joesoap101 wrote:I believe the countries who are visa exempt in schengenland enjoy that status because at least one of the member states had a national agreement on visa free access. Spain obviously had agreements with all the latin american countries, so they were incorporated into the schengen white list. South Africa unfortunately did not have this as far as I am aware, I could be incorrect- when was the last time South Africans could travel to todays schengen countries visa free?
Experience with Europe suggests they would "demand harmonisation with schengen". But there is no serious voice in the United Kingdom suggesting that Schengen membership would be in the country's national interest. So the issue is unlikely to arise anytime soon.I wonder if the UK were to join schengen would they demand a harmonisation of the UK position or the schengen position?
I expect there'd be a lot of talking, no doubt at great expense to everyone (the people who do the talking have to be paid, after all), and then the UK would fall into line with existing Schengen arrangements, with maybe a "sop" or two. That seems to be the way these things go.joesoap101 wrote:I wonder if the UK were to join schengen would they demand a harmonisation of the UK position or the schengen position? i.e. a good few countries would be added to the schengen white list or, many will be removed from visa free access to the UK (and Ireland, seeing that if the UK join Ireland will also join schengen).
I appreciate Switzerland's policy! It makes travelling to Swizerland so easy.Switzerland is also rather unique in allowing people who ordinarily require a visa, but have UK residency, to enter without a visa.
This is an interesting point. Historically, Switzerland has been keen to expedite (as much as possible) people's entrance into the country, and hence has had what is a "liberal" visa regime compared with other wealthy nations. Feelings might have changed somewhat in Switzerland in the past few years, but despite some changes in its visa policy it has nevertheless maintained visa-free entry for more nationalities than most Western-style countries do.Dawie wrote:Well, there is going to be a precedent...Switzerland is going to enter the Schengen agreement in 2008 I think. Like the UK, there are a number of countries who do not currently require visas for Switzerland but do require a visa to enter the Schengen area (South Africa being an example). Switzerland is also rather unique in allowing people who ordinarily require a visa, but have UK residency, to enter without a visa.
So it will be interesting to see how they resolve the discrepencies between the 2 visa lists, but unfortunately I suspect that a number of countries who do not currently require visas to enter Switzerland will have to get a Schengen visa from 2008.
This is true....if you're talking about qualifying to join the Schengen agreement. This discussion is actually about who does or does not get to be on the Schengen visa-free list, not about becoming a member of the Schengen agreement.The Schengen Agreement isn't based upon economics or wealth. It's based upon an international treaty for law enforcement agencies to share data. It's more about access to databases, criminal records, biometric data, and certain standards in types of passports (newer, biometric/RFID machine readable).
Again, this is true, but I don't see how it is relevant to a discussion about who does or does not get to be on the Schengen visa-free list.When certain governments aren't willing to share the data openly in standardized, agreed upon ways, they do not qualify to become Schengen members.
Again, true, but not relevant to this discussion.Many of these smaller nations are able to meet the requirements due to small populations, isolation, and thorough law-enforcement record keeping that can be shared. Poverty or wealth becomes fairly irrelevant regarding the individual citizens of those countries.
The United Kingdom, Ireland and Switzerland are 3 major European countries who seem perfectly happy not to require visas from South Africans. I would also argue that 2 countries with very similar socio-economic conditions to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico, with equally large and unaccountable populations enjoy visa-free access to the Schengen countries. Mexico and Brazil are arguably a lot more corrupt than South Africa.South Africa, for example, has a huge population of people that the government cannot ensure background checks or validity of documents. India suffers the same problem. Both countries for different and similar reasons of general chaos in their systems and corruption.
If background checks are so important, why is no one checking the backgrounds of all those people who come into Schengenland visa-free?Russia would be another example where anything can be bought for a price, so their passports are worthless as far as credible background-check documents.
Don't understand this - aren't "South Africans" and "the large number of black people who live in south Africa" the same? It's like someone saying "the major stumbling block for the easing of visa requirements for English people is the large amount of white people who live in England"Dawie wrote:To be brutally honest and cynical I think the major stumbling block for the easing of visa requirements for South Africans is the large amount of black people who live in South Africa.
But, to be fair, Dawie was talking about visa requirements for visitors to the Schengen area, which has quite separate requirements from those of the UK.stedman wrote:South Africa's visa requirements came about from the apartheid era, didn't they? The country was more or less shunned internationally until its apartheid policy was abolished in 1989.
If it was to do with skin colour, then Antigua, Barbados, Bahamas etc who have black people as the majority, just like South Africa, won't be able to enter the UK visa free. And Albanians and Russians would.
