No E-Border checks

[meats]

Visas were never needed for the vast majority of Western Europeans to travel to other Western European countries so i fail to see what your point is. The only difference would be that people would actually be questioned by immigration and get a stamp in their passport instead of shouting human rights human rights all the time. Whether a visa would be needed or not would be set by the country's government and not by the EU. A far better situation.

I never said that the UK can or would survive on its own. It's fairly obvious that i said that the EU should be used as a trading bloc only. By having it as a trading bloc, instead of what you've described, you remove trade tarriffs between member states. You don't need freedom of movement to remove trade tarriffs.

You make me shudder thinking that the EU system isn't abused. Have a read of the EEA forum and you'll see how it is easily abused by non-EU citizens marrying some random eastern European and asking how they can then move to the UK. I guess in your world that's not actually abuse of the system is it? The sooner that the UK is out of the EU the better. Keep it as a trading bloc, that's all we need it for. That's all it was when we entered it too, had we known it would become the socialist monstrosity that it is today then you'd have seen a very different outcome back then.

[Richard66]

Supposing visas are introduced in this eventuality. This is what I mean.

I suppose for you there are thousands of Nigerians marrying Poles, just to get into the UK, same as my wife married me, just to be able to go to the UK. Funny thing is that we have a daughter. She's was a psychologist in Russia and had her own flat. Of course, she would love to go to London, to live in a seedy rented room and wash dishes for a living.

Do you really think anyone in one's right mind would marry just for that? How many people would ruin their lives just for a couple thousand Pounds?

I would welcome statistics, not just heresay based on what one reads on this forum.

This is the same type of rant I read on the BBC site: no facts or figures: just opinion.

[Pakhtoon]

But that would be more of a free trade agreement than a Union. You are right initially it was all about trade but the world is changing and as Wanderer said earlier, the people who decided to convert the free trade thing into an EU, were more intelligent than you are. And its not just about trade anymore, you need to remember the political, social and moral aspects of free movement within the Union.

For example, most of the industries ( manufacturing and services ) in Eastern European countries will not be able to stand on their feet because they will never be able to compete with their counterparts in UK and other Western European countries, for example Poles will never buy a car built in Poland, they would rather buy it from Germany which are better choice.

Similarly, EU is becoming a more and more active entity politically and it has to be that way to safeguard the interest of all the members. Look at for example the tension with Russia over Georgia thing. European countries collectively will be more able to look after the interests of everyone than individually.

As for the abuse from Eastern Europeans, you are forgetting the cheap labour. I would rather hire a Polish plumber and give him say 100 pounds than a native British whom I will have to pay 200. You can argue that the Brit looses his job but then money is dear, be it you and me, or the businesses or the government.

[Richard66]

And, of course, nothing stops the Brit from going to Poland to work as a plumber.

I once had a Polish colleague, happily married to... a Pole!

I find it funny that there is talk of UK and of EU, as if the EU had no UK representatives in the European Commission and it is overlooked that European directives and regulations are voted by the European Parliament, of which the UK is a member and very often the source of the legislation! People seem to forget that they actually vote for the European Parliament, the same way as they vote for the Parliament in Westminster.

I seem to remember one UK high official was voted in following the Lisbon treaty...

[meats]

Have you never heard of marriages of convenience? I guess not.

How about the arranged marriages in the Indian sub-continent and amongst Muslims? I guess you haven't heard of that either. Someone living in the UK or Europe commands a lot of money in those circles. But that doesn't happen in your little fantasy world.

As i said inwarsaw, it was a trade bloc when the UK joined, i believe called at the time EFTA (European Free Trade Agreement). If you check the history of the EU it's had about 5 or 6 different names and was primarily started up because France was scared of being invaded by West Germany again. The world is changing indeed, however you are never going to get a continent with so many different cultures and languages to unite as one, especially when there are 2 or 3 countries effectively controlling the EU. But that's what happens when you let socialists into power.

I'd rather hire someone who did the job properly, whether it cost me £100 or £200. I'm sure that you're aware that France and Germany actually didn't open up their labour market and borders to Eastern Europeans (actually refused to as well) like the UK did when they first joined the EU.

Back to Richard66, of course nothing is stopping Brits from going to Poland to work as plumbers but why would they when the salary is dross in comparison to the salary in their home country? That simple reason alone is why limits should be imposed on the number of Eastern Europeans coming to the West until their salaries increase so that Western Europeans would be encouraged to actually move to the East.

You also seem to forget that Gordon Brown promised the UK a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I wonder what happened to that promise? Would you care to enlighten me as i don't ever remember having our promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty? But it's ok, Gordon and his cronies will be gone soon enough, just hope Cameron gives us the referendum on it which will effectively become EU yes or no.

[Pakhtoon]

I know about marriages of convenience and I am also aware of the arranged/forced marriages ( even though I have never heard about money involved in this matter ) but then abuse is everywhere. There is no such place or system where there is no abuse. Look at the MPs for example who abused their expense allowances. What would you do with them ? deport the MPs ? If some people abuse the system, its the people who are to be blamed not the system.

You probably don't know that vast majority of Eastern Europeans work hard and pay taxes to the government, then the businesses get cheap labor which increases their profits resulting in them paying more taxes. The government didn't put any work restrictions on them for no other reason than money. And it wasn't just UK who let them in to work, Ireland and Sweden did the same but as Richard mentioned earlier, most of the two million Poles for example who left home, went to UK and Ireland because of English Language. Since then other countries have also been opening their labour market for example France and Belgium.

Besides UK has not been as 'surrendering' as you are portraying for example they didn't join the Schengen and they require visa for family members.

[meats]

The reason that the government put no restrictions on Eastern Europeans when they first had access to the European market was because they didn't expect half of Poland to arrive within several weeks. They expected something like 12,000 and about 400 billion (ye so a slight exaggeration but something like half a million turned up in the first year) of them turned up.

The UK has been surrendering, Labour were quick to get rid of our rebate, pretty quick to sign papers allowing Brussels to set a vast chunk of our laws, pretty quick to sign up to the crappy human rights act which protects criminals only. Can you imagine how many illegals would be in the UK if they'd signed up to Schengen?!? It's actually scary how many more there would be as there would be no checks whatsoever at the French ports and the EU would shout from the roof tops if the UKBA were checking lorries for illegals in Calais etc.

There's plenty of money being given for arranged marriages. A lot of this goes to Eastern Europeans by people from the Indian sub-continent on student visas in the UK. A few examples of this have been on the UK Border Force TV show where the Eastern Europeans have said that they'd been paid to marry them. The Eastern European block of countries are still fairly dearly beloved in their ways, the Poles that i know would never be with a non-white person regardless of nationality. This might change now that they can't protect their borders effectively but that won't change for at least a generation. That's not to say that they all have that mindset but the majority do.

As for the MPs. I'd put every single one up for trial, make them repay every single penny plus interest and then put them in jail just like what would happen if an ordinary citizen were to do what they did. However they think that they're above the law as they have just further shown by claiming that a law dating back to the 17th century allows them to do what they did. And yes, if the MPs weren't British then i would deport them. I'd deport all non-Brits who abuse British taxpayers money.

[eldane]

I think this thread has gone totally out of subject now being meats' own Hyde Park stand from whe he can blast his rabiate views.

Meats! Are you by any chance Danish? You definately sound as one of the members of Denmarks ultra nationalistic party (Danish Peoples Party) which quite legally sits in a goverment coalition managing Danish immigration politics.
You have the same rabiate views as them and I am really wondering what you do in an Immigration forum (even being a guru) guiding foreningers how to utilize EU legislation you being so rabiate in your views. You even want UK out of EU! I am sorry but your views and your actions do not go hand in hand. Are you just having a "bad two days"? Are you on drugs? Have you temporary become job seeker (surely due to - in your opinion a EU citizen stealing your job, no just a pole because that would be discriminating)?
F@@k! Someting must have happend to you man. I am

All, have a nice day (you too meats)

El Danes

[meats]

No i'm not Danish. No i'm not on drugs. Yes i do want the UK out of the EU. Just like the majority of Brits do, which is why Labour reneged on their promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. And no i haven't become a job seeker.

[Wanderer]

Yes i do want the UK out of the EU. Just like the majority of Brits do.

I don't think this is true, in my professional circles especially, being able to work in Germany/Belgium/Netherlands without fuss is a fantastic boon, and these guys are earning up to a grand a day, the vast majority of this money coming into the UK.

The last one I was in Germany there was one German on the team, everyone else British.

I was dead against the EU in 73 when we joined under the Tories, but now I would hate to go back to isolationism, think Albania...

I agree with Meats on Asian's marrying Eastern Europeans, I know I get shit for this but almost everyone from under the former Soviet Union's sphere of interest is dearly beloved, not in a hatred way but in a 'I wouldn't marry one' way - Richard maybe ur wife being from Moscow (Veroniy Moskvichky!) maybe more liberal but in my experience the republics and provincials are that it is so. So while I agree not all are, and some are genuine, most aren't.

And finally, Gordon Brown, Dr. Gordon Brown is the best Chancellor we ever had, ever will have. He's no simpleton, and I fear had the Tories been in power the country would be in a far deeper hole. A deep hole caused by the global downturn remember.

[meats]

Yes i do want the UK out of the EU. Just like the majority of Brits do.

I don't think this is true, in my professional circles especially, being able to work in Germany/Belgium/Netherlands without fuss is a fantastic boon, and these guys are earning up to a grand a day, the vast majority of this money coming into the UK.

The last one I was in Germany there was one German on the team, everyone else British.

I was dead against the EU in 73 when we joined under the Tories, but now I would hate to go back to isolationism, think Albania...

EFTA is the way to go, just like Norway and Switzerland. That way we can control our borders without interference from Europe, we keep the trading bloc which is all that we really need from the EU, we won't have the French trying to ruin the City as they've said they've planned to do since a Frenchman was appointed European Finance Minister and we can make our own laws without interference from Brussels. Also none of these stupid EEA visas, the cheaper way for people to enter Britain having been refused for British visas in the past.

I also think, Wanderer, if we knew that the EU would be what it is today then it would've been a 'no' vote back in 73. The people were told that it would be a trading bloc only and certainly nothing like what it is today. I think the EU would be more acceptable to many today if they got rid of the open borders, didn't dictate policy to all member states from Brussels and had a radical overhaul of the CAP. I notice that that never happened despite it being one of the conditions of Britain giving up its rebate.

Anyway i've got to try and get into Reading as i've got a lunch with a potential client grrr. Go away snow!

[Richard66]

If you are getting on your high horsde, meats, at least get your facts right:

In 1973 it was called the European Common Market (ECM).

The right of free movement is one of the four basic pillars of what was then the Common Market. It is no inventionm on the part of the EU and people knew of that in 1973.

Norway is a member of the European Economic Area (EEA). EEA member states (or which Liechtenstein and Iceland are also members) are obliged to enforce the majority of EU directives and regulations, but have no commissioners at the European Commission and no voice in the European Parliament.

The European Fre Trade Agreement (EFTA) exists to accomodate Swizerland. Again freedom of movement was not negotiable.

All above countries, with the exception of Liechtenstein, are members of Schengen.

The illegal immigrants that cluster around Calais are illegal immigrants in the Schengen area also: they have not entered with visas.

I have travelled a lot between France and Italy and each time I have seen policemen border the train, ask for documents and remove people from the train. The last time it was four Chinese girls and a (maybe) Italian man.

You have not provided numbers for marriages of convenience and I know why: because such numbers do not exist or, if they do, you do not know them.

Thank you so much for saying my wife HAD to apply for an EEA FP because otherwise she would have bewen refused a visa. Do you believe that everyone who wants to marry a non-EEA citizen has in excess of £1,000 to pay for spouse and marriage visas?

I remember on the train to Scotland most people we spoke to were flabbergasted to find out the wife of an Englishman needed a visa at all. Had we not had that possibility to return to the UK we now would have been the happy parents of a steteless child. Is that how you would like to protect the borders, by denying UK citizens from returning to the UK so that their childen might become British also instead of being steteless? If you care to read around you will see my story.

Actually, if it had not been for the fact my wife was pregnant at the time (we included the pregnancy certificate among the documents) our marriage probably would have been classed as one of convenience by the authorities that "protect" the borders.

As I mentioned before, the UK is an active member is WRITING the laws which you claim "Brussels dictates".

Why was there no referendum? Because treaties are too complex to be voted by the general public. Remember the French rejected the European Constitution because they thought it woul mean Turkey would join and the Dutch rejected it because the French did so before.

Why did the Irish reject the treaty? Does anyone know?

Actually, wanderer, my wife is not from Moscow or even Saint Petersburg: she is from a city in the North.

[Wanderer]

Sorry Richard, I thought I read she was, apologies.

Mine's from Urals!

[Richard66]

I used to have an open invitation to visit someone in Yekateringburg, but have never been there.

Where my wife come from its very pleasant. The people are polite, drivers are careful and the public services efficient. We managed to get our marriage registered in 5 minutes!

[Wanderer]

I used to have an open invitation to visit someone in Yekateringburg, but have never been there.

Where my wife come from its very pleasant. The people are polite, drivers are careful and the public services efficient. We managed to get our marriage registered in 5 minutes!

I;ve never been either, it's only a centimetre from my partners city on the map but thats about 2000 miles!

I agree with ur other points too, Ive seen no extreme alcohol consumption, no rudeness. Well some rudeness, the shop people and conductresses on the trams and trolleybuses, evil harridans! Oh, and two wasted days in OVIR trying to get registered, the most mind-numbingly inefficient organisation in the World...

But I felt totally safe walking around all areas at midnight, unlike my native Bolton.

[Obie]

Unfortunately there are left wing hippies who disagree with you. People like Obie for example think that the whole world is entitled to live in the UK and would be quite happy to see it become a terrorist hotspot. Quite frankly the sooner the UK is out of the EU the better and also gets rid of the even more pointless human rights act which only protects the criminals and screws over the innocent.

I find your level of ignorance quite astounding. The EU does not encourage abuse neither does it facilitate it.

Article 35 of Directive 2004/38 EC, if you are aware of it, or have cared to spend time reading it, says.

Article 35
Abuse of rights
Member States may adopt the necessary measures
to refuse, terminate or withdraw any right
conferred by this Directive in the case of abuse of
rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience.
Any such measure shall be proportionate and
subject to the procedural safeguards provided for
in Articles 30 and 31.

Memberstate are free to adopt measures necessary to combat any form of abuse, and their hands are not tied in that regards.

For you to come to the forum and utter factually inaccurate gabbage, shows what an out of touch right wing fascist you are.

In regards to the body scan, i think it is a gross violation of human dignity, rights and privacy, especially when it is used on little children. I would be very uncomfortable for people to see naked images of my children. With the number of sex predators out there, i will be deeply concerned.

Not to mention the inconvenience, disproportionate delays it will cause to passengers.

However, if it will enhance security as they have promised, then i am prepared to study it. However i don't think measures like this will be sustainable for the long haul.

Meat could you kindly explain to me what your purpose on the forum is.

I find it hard to grasp it.

I believe like yourself that UK should be expelled form the EU, however for a different reason from that of yours.

I am of the believe that their presence is not conducive to the good of the EU, they make a complete mockery of the EU regulations and directives.

Their presence there is like a marriage of convenience, which as i have stated in the past, is a sham in its entirety.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

There's plenty of money being given for arranged marriages. A lot of this goes to Eastern Europeans by people from the Indian sub-continent on student visas in the UK. A few examples of this have been on the UK Border Force TV show where the Eastern Europeans have said that they'd been paid to marry them. The Eastern European block of countries are still fairly dearly beloved in their ways, the Poles that i know would never be with a non-white person regardless of nationality. This might change now that they can't protect their borders effectively but that won't change for at least a generation. That's not to say that they all have that mindset but the majority do.

Couple of points: You are talking about fraudulent marriages. Arranged marriages are a very different thing and are not fraudulent, any more than romantic love marriages are fraudulent.

Interesting that the poles you know would never marry a non-white person. I know a polish woman who is married to a (black) south african man. They are very happy and have a very energetic and bouncy one and a half year old toddler. There are lots of wonderful people out there, and not all are white.

[meats]

Unfortunately there are left wing hippies who disagree with you. People like Obie for example think that the whole world is entitled to live in the UK and would be quite happy to see it become a terrorist hotspot. Quite frankly the sooner the UK is out of the EU the better and also gets rid of the even more pointless human rights act which only protects the criminals and screws over the innocent.

I find your level of ignorance quite astounding. The EU does not encourage abuse neither does it facilitate it.

Article 35 of Directive 2004/38 EC, if you are aware of it, or have cared to spend time reading it, says.

Article 35
Abuse of rights
Member States may adopt the necessary measures
to refuse, terminate or withdraw any right
conferred by this Directive in the case of abuse of
rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience.
Any such measure shall be proportionate and
subject to the procedural safeguards provided for
in Articles 30 and 31.

Memberstate are free to adopt measures necessary to combat any form of abuse, and their hands are not tied in that regards.

For you to come to the forum and utter factually inaccurate gabbage, shows what an out of touch right wing fascist you are.

In regards to the body scan, i think it is a gross violation of human dignity, rights and privacy, especially when it is used on little children. I would be very uncomfortable for people to see naked images of my children. With the number of gender predators out there, i will be deeply concerned.

Not to mention the inconvenience, disproportionate delays it will cause to passengers.

However, if it will enhance security as they have promised, then i am prepared to study it. However i don't think measures like this will be sustainable for the long haul.

Meat could you kindly explain to me what your purpose on the forum is.

I find it hard to grasp it.

I believe like yourself that UK should be expelled form the EU, however for a different reason from that of yours.

I am of the believe that their presence is not conducive to the good of the EU, they make a complete mockery of the EU regulations and directives.

Their presence there is like a marriage of convenience, which as i have stated in the past, is a sham in its entirety.

Obie i appreciate that your sole intention in life is to ruin the UK so i expect you to have wet dreams about the EU most nights. I'm sure that you do too. I'm glad that you agree that the UK shouldn't be in the EU.

With regards to the body scanners, i really don't care whether you think it breaches someone's human rights or not. I'd rather go through more security procedures if it reduces the risk of terrorist attacks and it makes my journey safer. That's is my human right too, the right to a safe journey. People with thinking like yours are more of a threat to the world than the terrorists because you let them have a free reign everywhere because of their human rights. But then again innocent people don't have human rights.

The EU does encourage abuse Obie in plenty of ways. The CAP is one such abuse, the MEPs milking the EU kitty is another big abuse. The fact that the EU sets laws in member states is another abuse. No wonder people refer to it as the EUSSR. But then again i'm sure you're the sort of person who would love to live under communism.

[Richard66]

Wanderer, we did not even go to the OVIR (well, we did, but to apply for citizenship for our little girl: first case ever and they had to contact base to know what to do, but do it they did and the application was over in less than an hour. If you remember our discussion about Russian citizenship not being automatic... I had to supply a copy of the little girl's BRITISH passport as well as a copy of mine, together with immigration cards and my authorisation in writing.): the owner of the flat (my brother-in-law) did it and was finished in ln maybe half an hour. We registered our marriage at the office next door, 5 minutes before closing time. My wife applied for copies of her birth certificate at the town hall (all recently refurbished and we had the occasion to observe three marriages). All done in an hour. Even in the bus they were nice to us, asking us this and that about the baby.

But the mud in the streets! And yes, the odd cow near the flat. I am looking forward to going back this year and pick wild strawberries at the dacha!

Meats, what are you saying? Are you actually saying that now that Poland is in the EU it is going to be flooded with Ghanans and Morrocans? Do you really gain your knowledge of marriages of convenience from the idiot box (TV)?

As for body scans... There was a body scan in Russia, but, as I was carrying the baby, I was not asked to pass through it. Now, what would stop a terrorist planting a bomb on his baby son (as I gather one of the liquid bomb scheme had thought of doing - by the way, all of then BRITISH citizens and not Poles or Russian family members). When that happens will babies need to be scanned to and searched or will babies be banned, just like knives and needles?

As for exiting the EU... I am afraid this would be supported by the vast majority of the EU, who no longer can stand the "very superior person" attitude of the UK, picking and choosing which directives and regulations to adopt and choosing to transpose them to suit the needs of domestic policy.

As for open borders... Now that I remember, the last time we travelled from France to Italy the police came to our cabin at three in the morning, wanting to see my wife's residence card. If she had not had it she would have been in trouble.

I want to see the next time you need to travel at the last moment to France and find out that, because of "secure" e-borders checks, you are not allowed to board the train, because you have not given hours advance warning.

[Richard66]

EUSSR

Who calls it that, meats, the BNP? Le Pen?

The European Parliament, of some of its members are from the UK, passes laws that have to do with European matters. This is what international treaties are about. When you sign an international treaty you cannot expect to overrule it at pleasure when it suits party policy.

By the way, I am still waiting for the statisitcs on marriages of convenience.