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meats
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Post by meats » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:46 pm

Richard66 wrote:So, in your view all people in the UK who are not EU nationals are potential illegal immigrants and ought to be stopped marrying. All EEA citizens are potential criminals willing to engage in this muck. Thank Heavens I married in Italy, becaue in the UK I would have been refused permission, as it would have been automatically considered sham.

Have you given a thought to the mysery that honest people have to go through because some people abuse the system?
In my view the UK has a right to scan all people entering this country for potential risks regardless of nationality. I don't think illegal immigrants should be allowed to get married in this country, i don't think anyone not on a marriage visa or fiance visa (if non-British) should be allowed to get married in this country.

I'm perfectly well aware of what innocent people have to go through because some people abuse our system yes. I also think that there should be no visa fees whatsoever when UK citizens are involved in the process, ie for spouse visas.

mochyn
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Post by mochyn » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:44 am

I agree with meats in that since we are UK citizens we should not pay for visas for family members as it is a form of reverse discrimination as EEA citizens get all the benefits of a system for which they have contributed nothing.
I am waiting for the day we are issued with Identity cards but I think the Government should pay for them not individuals

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:08 am

meats wrote: In my view the UK has a right to scan all people entering this country for potential risks regardless of nationality. I don't think illegal immigrants should be allowed to get married in this country, i don't think anyone not on a marriage visa or fiance visa (if non-British) should be allowed to get married in this country.
I'm perfectly well aware of what innocent people have to go through because some people abuse our system
Make conducting a sham marriage a crime, a punishable offense, and
punish the guilty.
Don't remove marriage and family rights from families of different
nationalities and ethnic origins. It starts to become xenophobic and
miscegenation-phobic, If a marriage is genuine, it should not
matter the legal residence status of a spouse.
If the marriage is a fraud and money is exchanged, prosecute.

ejw4h9
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Post by ejw4h9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:57 am

I think part of the problem is inherent to any treaty...some countries are going to have more burden in enforcing it than others. The UK is a desirable country to reside for a lot of people, whereas some smaller countries are less desirable for the time being. What does that mean? The UK is responsible for overseeing more marriages of people that may not be citizens of the UK. In response to this, the UK has had to be more stringent on how they go about recognizing the spouse and/or family of EU citizens. To honest people, this comes across as persecution, unnecessary harassment, or simple government bureaucracy in having to "prove" a relatively intangible concept of a legitimate marriage. However, I have yet to see a simple way of going about separating legitimate marriages from sham marriages. The Directive is a great document that outlines many things that member states MUST recognize. The double-edged blade appears when it makes it incredibly difficult to deport suspected fraud marriages...in protecting legitimate marriages, we must also include protecting suspected shams as it would be a travesty in anyone's mind to wrongfully split a genuine family on accident.

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:10 pm

Dealing with Sham marriage
As with any crime, it should be a judge who decides based on evidence,
not some faceless bureaucrat answerable to noone.

Justice means your innocent, till they prove to a judge your guilty.
not your guilty till you prove yourself innocent to some bureaucrat not
worthy of such powerful decisions.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:00 pm

It seems to me a registrar ought to have the faculty to refuse performing a cerimony if he suspects monkey business. A couple that cannot even communicate but wants "to marry" should trigger an alarm which should be acted upon. Someone who who has been illegal for 5 years that suddenly decides to marry should also be suspicious, by, come on! must this suspicion be extended to an American who, after studying in the UK for 2 years, decides to marry someone she has been going out with for the last year and a half?

If you care to read some discussions here you will see that AMERICANS have beed refused EEA family permits on the grounds the marriage was one of convenience! And what stopped the American from coming staight to the UK in the first place without any visa at all?

Why not crack on the gangs that organise such travesties under the name of marriage? Are these people who "marry" issued with residence cards? Are not six months enough time for the authorities to check if a relationship is genuine? Those who engage in such acts should be deported and maybe excluded on grounds of public policy. Would the EU protest if this happened? I doubt it.

My Italian experience told me policemen are apt to come around to the alleged nest of the newly-wed couple and if only one is in residence... no residence card!

You cannot imagine how the rules that you would enforce to avoid sham marriages are evil, how they impede any legitimate relationship and force otherwise law-abiding citizens to bend the rules: Brisith citizens who go to France "to work" so they can marry their non-EEA partner and then return covered by EEA law, Italians who must "employ" their partners as domestic staff in order to have enough time to prepare the marriage, Germans obliged to go Russia to marry and then move to Austria, because they cannot take their spouse to Germany... The list is endless.

I myself had immense difficulty in getting my then future wife to Italy to marry her and even then, because the British consul was on holiday and could not issue me with a certificate of no impedement on time, we had the choice: either she remained 20 days after her visa expired or she returned to Russia with no guarantee of obtaining another visa. You cannot imagine how difficult it is to obtain a Schengen visa and how often they are turned down, but never as difficult to enter the UK with an idea of marriage and you want to make it even harder!

Having worked for a language school in Italy I can tell you Schengen visas are not given either to Africans, Asians and most south Americans as a matter of policy. The illegal immigrants crashing at the doors of Calais have not entered the EU because of Schengen.

As for calling the EU a socialist idea, which is the country that wanted to make IDs mandatory with an amount of information requested from the public that not even Stalin required? Take a look at an EEA FP form to see the amount of information requested! They do not quite ask you what colour of underwear you favour, but almost.

The solution to this is not to withdraw from the EU: it is to stop sham marriages and illegal immigration. The people who travel under the wheels of lorries will not be stopped just because the UK is not in the EU.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

Fairtrade
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Post by Fairtrade » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:19 pm

ejw4h9 wrote:I think part of the problem is inherent to any treaty...some countries are going to have more burden in enforcing it than others. The UK is a desirable country to reside for a lot of people, whereas some smaller countries are less desirable for the time being. What does that mean? .
The main reason why the UK is such a desirable location for many foreigners is because of the English language. If the English didn't go and colonised almost the whole world and force the English language onto others, there wouldn't have been so many immigrants today coming to Britain. You see it's Karma. You force your language and ways on others and a hundred year later you get overrun with immigrants.

global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:00 pm

mochyn wrote:I am waiting for the day we are issued with Identity cards but I think the Government should pay for them not individuals
And how would the government pay for them? From taxes, yes? How's that different from people paying for them directly?

meats
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Post by meats » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:21 pm

global gypsy wrote:
mochyn wrote:I am waiting for the day we are issued with Identity cards but I think the Government should pay for them not individuals
And how would the government pay for them? From taxes, yes? How's that different from people paying for them directly?
We don't 'see' our taxes per se, however we do see money leaving our bank accounts.

global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:53 pm

Yes, ignorance is indeed bliss.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:22 pm

Meats, Maybe this is another reason for the UK to leave the EU:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8457172.stm

After all, if the UK were out of the EU all those stags would not be all over the continent contributing to white slavery.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

fysicus
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Netherlands

Post by fysicus » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:31 pm

meats wrote:EFTA is the way to go, just like Norway and Switzerland. That way we can control our borders without interference from Europe, we keep the trading bloc which is all that we really need from the EU, we won't have the French trying to ruin the City as they've said they've planned to do since a Frenchman was appointed European Finance Minister and we can make our own laws without interference from Brussels. Also none of these stupid EEA visas, the cheaper way for people to enter Britain having been refused for British visas in the past.
Funny you mention Norway and Switzerland who are both part of Schengen as shining examples!!
You clearly don't know what you're talking about!
Directive 2004/38 also applies to EEA countries.

ca.funke
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Belgium

Post by ca.funke » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:08 pm

meats wrote:EFTA is the way to go, just like Norway and Switzerland. That way we can control our borders without interference from Europe, we keep the trading bloc which is all that we really need from the EU, we won't have the French trying to ruin the City as they've said they've planned to do since a Frenchman was appointed European Finance Minister and we can make our own laws without interference from Brussels. Also none of these stupid EEA visas, the cheaper way for people to enter Britain having been refused for British visas in the past.
Hmpf.

EFTA = Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland (link)
EEA = EU + EFTA - Switzerland (link)
Schengen = EU + (Norway + Iceland + Switzerland + Liechtenstein + Monaco) - (UK + IRL + Bulgaria + Romania + Cyprus) (link, good illustrative graph)

EFTA, EEA, EU and Schengen are all independent from each other. It´s possible to be a member of any combination of the above.

Now I´m not understanding the following:

1.
You say that "EFTA is the way to go, just like Norway and Switzerland. That way we can control our borders..."

How can Norway and Switzerland control their borders, being EFTA-members, while they´re still in Schengen? Maybe you picked a bad example there?

The only countries in Europe who can "control their borders" that I´m aware of are Albania, Andorra, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Georgia, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Russia, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine, San Marino and the Vatikan. (the list may not be 100% complete)

Good to know you want the UK to join the crème-de-la-crème of important and prosperous European countries :)

Furthermore, what would "controlling your own borders" have helped on really important occasions, such as 7/7 (link), where the perpetrators came from (born and bread) northern England?

I really wish it never happened and will never happen again, but wouldn´t international cooperation be more helpful than sitting on an island? (Unless you want to cap all international relations, such as North Korea)

2.
In the EFTA-context, you say "...we keep the trading bloc..."

EFTA comprises of four (4) countries as per above. Great "trading-block", enjoy trading ;)

3.
The same in other words: You complain about "stupid EEA visas" - so what do you want? EEA-trade-block (with EEA visas) or an EFTA-tradeblock of 4?

Rgds, Christian
Last edited by ca.funke on Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:02 pm

:D :D

In theory Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican can contro their borders, but if they do is another kettle of fish (as my father would say). The times I have been to San Marino and the Vatican I just walked in and then walked out. As they are all surrounded by Scengen countries (only one, in the case of Monaco), the job is best left to the border guards of the larger neighbours.

Unfortunately the point of view expressed by our firend Fleisch are all tyo current in the UK.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

Richard66
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BE

Post by Richard66 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:08 am

I have been studying things a bit lately and I have this to say: the human rights question is nothing to do with the EU but rather with the council of Europe, of wehich the UK is a founding memeber and to which every single European country (that is recognised as such) is a member bar White Russia (Belarus in English: bela = white, Rus = Rus or for some Russia). The Human rights court is not an EU institution, but one of the Council of Europe. Maybe the fact this tribunal is also in Stassburg that makes one confused?

The UK was a founding member of EFTA and left it to join the the European Common Market. They had decided to found EFTA because the French would not allow the UK to join the Common Market because they feared the UK wanted to create a federal superstate. Indeed, as early as 1947 Churchill was calling for a United States of Europe.

So much for history.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:18 am

Richard,

I hope you are not planning to let facts get in the way of "spirited" discussion...

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:45 pm

NO WAY!

I will not let mere facts ruin a good story! What do you take me for? :shock: :shock:

:P
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

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