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Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

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MAKUSA
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No E-Border checks

Post by MAKUSA » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:16 am

for EU citizens and their family members, the tide is slowly turning against the UK incompetent Home Office; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... U-law.html

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:15 am

Interesting. We recently had to provide some data (full given names, surname, gender, nationality, date of birth, passport number, passport expiry date, passport country of issue) to our company's new travel agent. This information obviously goes to the Advanced Passenger Information System (APIS) which I assume is the database behind e-Borders. I am trying to find out now what they think about the story.

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Post by 86ti » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:16 am

Correction: If I understand correctly APIS is just a general system to collect passenger data not necessarily a specific implementation of a certain goverment.

I have been told by our travel agency that they are required to collect this data on behalf of the airlines but providing this data is optional. So, again, it's to the airlines to decide what to do with the data or what to do if they don't have them...

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Post by Ben » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:41 pm

So how are the Spanish allowed to do it then?
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86ti
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Post by 86ti » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:16 pm

benifa wrote:So how are the Spanish allowed to do it then?
Good question! The Swiss do it BTW too though I suppose they can.

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Post by Obie » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:03 pm

Spain is acting in conformity with the EU wide proposal. They do not require this information from people travelling within EU proper ( Schengen Land).

The UK and Ireland, has only themselves to blame, for the Spanish insiting their citizens provides this information, or flights departing from their territory extracting these information from their passengers.

The UK however, intended to extend this measure , illegally to people in Schengen Land. This is totally unacceptable, which is why EU chiefs have questioned its legality, not because people want to pick on Britain.

The UK will still be allowed to require this information from EU national seeking to Enter the UK from a third country.

Just one more thing, they will be able to get those information from their friends in Ireland, should they wish to do so.
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Post by DFDS. » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:45 pm

Obie wrote:Spain is acting in conformity with the EU wide proposal. They do not require this information from people travelling within EU proper ( Schengen Land).

The UK and Ireland, has only themselves to blame, for the Spanish insiting their citizens provides this information, or flights departing from their territory extracting these information from their passengers.

The UK however, intended to extend this measure , illegally to people in Schengen Land. This is totally unacceptable, which is why EU chiefs have questioned its legality, not because people want to pick on Britain.

The UK will still be allowed to require this information from EU national seeking to Enter the UK from a third country.

Just one more thing, they will be able to get those information from their friends in Ireland, should they wish to do so.
You need to lecture Meats about this, as he thinks that no services can be provided with out extracting such imformation from people. This is all about big Brother!
Relax! and this too shall pass, secrets are like seasons, they change.

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Post by meats » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:22 pm

DFDS. wrote:
Obie wrote:Spain is acting in conformity with the EU wide proposal. They do not require this information from people travelling within EU proper ( Schengen Land).

The UK and Ireland, has only themselves to blame, for the Spanish insiting their citizens provides this information, or flights departing from their territory extracting these information from their passengers.

The UK however, intended to extend this measure , illegally to people in Schengen Land. This is totally unacceptable, which is why EU chiefs have questioned its legality, not because people want to pick on Britain.

The UK will still be allowed to require this information from EU national seeking to Enter the UK from a third country.

Just one more thing, they will be able to get those information from their friends in Ireland, should they wish to do so.
You need to lecture Meats about this, as he thinks that no services can be provided with out extracting such imformation from people. This is all about big Brother!
This doesn't actually make any difference whatsoever DFDS, all that it means is that people will be queueing for longer at immigration whilst they check everyone's details at the counter, and most likely resulting in more people being interviewed/detained/deported. This will inconvenience passengers more than previously.

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Post by Obie » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:36 pm

I agree with you DFDS, this is an unnecessary intrusion into citizens personal details, and an infringement of there civil liberty, in a manner which is totally unjustified and could only be described as unduly disproportionate. Who knows were these information will land eventually, and how they can be misused, under the guise of "fight against terrorism".

You only need to look at the UK's record of handling and misusing personal data of individual. Look at those lost CD, carrying personal details of Child benefit claimant.

The other thing about this information, is it breaks all the code on freedom of movement.

Essentially, someone would have bought their flight ticket and meet all the requirement, they will have a Visa, or an EU passport or a Visa exempt persons passport.

The UK might suddenly tell the airline not to allow those individual to board a flight, because of a name match, or because of some secret information they hold about this person, which he or she may not know about, or has the opportunity of defending.

For example, they will not be able to assess a case under the EU criteria of Public Policy and Public Security, and you could see an EEA national , who committed an offence which does not meet the public policy requirement, been denied boarding a flight, after they had spent there money on flight ticket, which is non- refundable.

Utterly ridiculous. Thanks goodness, EU chiefs have intervened.

It will make a huge difference.

Yes it is the power of immigration officers to assess the circumstance surrounding the entry of a Non-EEA national, that is fine. They can take all the time in the planet to do that.

But to stipulate a condition that they should provide a lengthly piece of information to airlines before boarding a flight is not right.
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Post by DFDS. » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:57 pm

Obie i see your point, for example, US bound passengers are now subject to full body scanning, This still does not meet the EU standards in terms of human rights. Hope readers won't get me wrong on this. These full body scanner have been in existence for sometime, but contravening with EU regulations, that's why most Airports haven't put them into use.The most recent development does confirm this, as only certain Paxs. goings to the US are legible is go through these scanners. Not all US bound Paxs.


One aviation expert was giving his analysis on Tel and he made the same recommendation that not all Paxs should go through these scanners as we need aviation to go on. They may tern out to be an embarrassment in many ways not only delays. The aviation industry has suffered for same time and there is need for it to move on!
Relax! and this too shall pass, secrets are like seasons, they change.

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Post by SBT_Owner » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:14 pm

After this .. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 968539.ece
I think such checks are now vital .

If he had got himself a genuine college his terror attack would clearly of been done in the UK which is a shocking though .

So what if people are asked a question or 2 which may take 1 minute ? maybe 2 minutes ? If it keeps people safe on a flight that is all that matters .

If people think it is a human rights issue to take finger prints and scan people to make sure they are who they say they are and are not carrying anything that could be used for a terror attack on a plane then they really do need to get in the real world and get a job ... to much internet all day every day can twist the brain man ....
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Post by DFDS. » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:44 pm

RattleSnake wrote:After this .. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 968539.ece
I think such checks are now vital .

If he had got himself a genuine college his terror attack would clearly of been done in the UK which is a shocking though .

So what if people are asked a question or 2 which may take 1 minute ? maybe 2 minutes ? If it keeps people safe on a flight that is all that matters .

If people think it is a human rights issue to take finger prints and scan people to make sure they are who they say they are and are not carrying anything that could be used for a terror attack on a plane then they really do need to get in the real world and get a job ... to much internet all day every day can twist the brain man ....

RattleSnake am sorry to say that i haven't got your what you meant in the above post.


What exactly did you want to say?
Relax! and this too shall pass, secrets are like seasons, they change.

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Post by meats » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:06 pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel ... t=0&page=1

Scanners by end of the month then. Profiling to come back and some trace explosive device by the end of the year. Oh and lots of sniffer pigs, i mean dogs! If only it were pigs, the airports would be a safer place :lol:

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Post by SBT_Owner » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:57 pm

DFDS. wrote:
RattleSnake wrote:After this .. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 968539.ece
I think such checks are now vital .

If he had got himself a genuine college his terror attack would clearly of been done in the UK which is a shocking though .

So what if people are asked a question or 2 which may take 1 minute ? maybe 2 minutes ? If it keeps people safe on a flight that is all that matters .

If people think it is a human rights issue to take finger prints and scan people to make sure they are who they say they are and are not carrying anything that could be used for a terror attack on a plane then they really do need to get in the real world and get a job ... to much internet all day every day can twist the brain man ....

RattleSnake am sorry to say that i haven't got your what you meant in the above post.


What exactly did you want to say?
I am saying that the following is utter garbage... "The UK might suddenly tell the airline not to allow those individual to board a flight, because of a name match, or because of some secret information they hold about this person, which he or she may not know about, or has the opportunity of defending.

For example, they will not be able to assess a case under the EU criteria of Public Policy and Public Security, and you could see an EEA national , who committed an offence which does not meet the public policy requirement, been denied boarding a flight, after they had spent there money on flight ticket, which is non- refundable."

We had a very lucky escape as the Nigerian terrorist tried to get to the UK before he decided to try and attack the USA . Clowns thinking that because a person has paid money for a ticket means they should instantly be allowed to fly are living on a different planet . All info should be used to check the person is who the said they are and are not a danger to other passengers or the UK .

Any innocent person will not be affected by anti-terror safety features the worst they can expect is a minute or 2 delay ...
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Post by Pakhtoon » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:41 pm

Agreed RattleSnake. It can of course go against the human rights and privacy and the sort but I would better be safe than sorry. The americans have similar sytem in place and there are no exemptions to that. Even if you don't need a visa for US, you still have to give this information at least 72 hours before your departure so they can cross check, and I am for UK bringing in such checks.

Whether measures like body scanners would be effective or not is a different story though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8441385.stm
“Terrorism is the war of the poor; war is the terrorism of the rich.â€

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Post by meats » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:50 pm

inwarsaw wrote:Agreed RattleSnake. It can of course go against the human rights and privacy and the sort but I would better be safe than sorry. The americans have similar sytem in place and there are no exemptions to that. Even if you don't need a visa for US, you still have to give this information at least 72 hours before your departure so they can cross check, and I am for UK bringing in such checks.

Whether measures like body scanners would be effective or not is a different story though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8441385.stm
Unfortunately there are left wing hippies who disagree with you. People like Obie for example think that the whole world is entitled to live in the UK and would be quite happy to see it become a terrorist hotspot. Quite frankly the sooner the UK is out of the EU the better and also gets rid of the even more pointless human rights act which only protects the criminals and screws over the innocent.

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Post by Richard66 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:00 pm

I agree with you meats: Let's get the UK out of the EU! At least that way the EU will be protected from the home-grown terrorists who were born and live in the UK and are UK citizens into the bargain.

Keep your own terror cells to yourselves.

The way you talk would make one think the EU is Somalia or Yemen and that south of the Channel is a terrorist hatchery.

As for your talk of human rights... What are you? A potential dictator? Maybe we need to abolish democracy altogether; after all, freedom gets into the way of the fight on terror.

Will you have us strip naked and have immigration officers put fingers you know where in all passengers because this might (MIGHT) make flights safer?
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Post by Wanderer » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:58 pm

Read 'The Children of Men' by PD James, or watch the low-brow rubbish version 'Children of Men'.....

In the book the Isle of Man is used as a penal colony! Slightly echos its use as a sort of prison for displaced German Jews in WW2...

Personally, I am grateful for the freedoms the EU gives us, let's not forget the Tories took us in the Common Market as it was.

We can criticise our politicians and government left or right, but they are cleverer and more astute than we are with our schoolboy politics, much like Wayne Foster circa 1976, reserve forward for Bolton Wanderers - god he was awful. We all thought he was shite, every time he came on he was rubbish, of course we all thought we could do better.

One affy he came to our school, during football and played with us. He was 100 times quicker, 1000 times more skilled and a million times better than any of us, looked like fukin' Pele but with a permed mullet. It's all relative. Put anyone of us here in Government and we'd in the name of god up royally.

In Gov we trust.....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Post by meats » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:11 pm

Richard66,

Yep the sooner the UK is out of the EU the better. As for getting rid of the stupid human rights act, the Magna Carta and Common Law was working perfectly well here until the stupid human rights act came into play. I just hope that Cameron sticks to his policy of getting rid of the human rights act.

The EU should only be a trading bloc, the freedom of movement is a good in idea in theory yet we've all soon that it is abused beyond belief in reality yet the EU continue to ignore the abuses and in fact encourage these abuses.

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Post by Richard66 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:38 pm

A trading block where the trader cannot travel to trade. A trading block where you can sell a refrigerator to someone abroad but cannot install it, because there is no right of free movement.

What about easy travel? How will it be if to go to France you need a visa? What if you need to go to Holland you need a Visa? What if every single traveller needs a visa to go on a holiday to London? What end to all the schools of English in England that cater to continental students if all need visas? What about all the old age pensioners who retire to the south of France, to Spain? What end to teachers of English that would need work permits to teach in Portugal or in Slovenia?

Even the Swiss realise you cannot be a loner. Do you really think the UK can survive on its own? There was hope it might become the 51 US state at one time, but nowdays... the US would dismiss the UK as irrelevant and side with the EU.

Sweden is also an EU member, so is Finland and Portugal. Why is there no massive immigration there? Does not the fact that English as a world language have more to do with massive immigration than anything else?

You talk about the Rights Act. Is it that different from what was already law before?

Could you please give me one example of the abuse you talk about on the part of the EU? That family members can travel together with the EU citizen?

You make me shudder.
Aiming at travelling to the UK with my wife and not with an EEA FP!

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