Surinder Singh via Germany

[mak35]

Talking to a German immigration lawyer is a good idea. Just make sure they know that you are dealing with EU and not domestic immigration law. It's quite different.

I have an appointment with the Lawyer next week but she has answered the main question I asked that YES we can apply for RC whilst in Germany with Schengen type C visa. But she does want to discuss the overall situation with me having no prior arrangement of work there.

With all the costs to maintain 5 people and sky high rent I was thinking what if I settle the family there and keep working in UK for couple of months until I find a job in Germany. I know this period will not be counted towards the Center of Life tests but at least the family will be in the process of getting the RC based on self-sufficiency. The ultimate aim will be to finally move myself there but its just trying not to lose the source of income until I secure something decent in Germany.

Do you know if I am even allowed to do that ? with non-eu dependents in the host state

[mak35]

Someone threw a spanner in the plan earlier.

I rang up the Residence Permit section of German Embassy UK to ask if my parents are issued with a Tourist Visa would they be able to apply for Residence Permit directly in Germany. The woman on the other side replied NO and they have to go back to home country and apply for 'Family reunification' visa. She said nationalities of certain countries are not issued RC within Germany. Pakistan being one of them (parent's home)

When I insisted that German Immigration website does not state any distinction applied based on nationality she simply said different councils in German may interpret it differently so you can go and try !! like it is not a big deal to move the entire center of your life to a new country just to find out whether this whole thing will work or not.

I've looked up and book an appointment with a German Immigration Lawyer for tomorrow to check for definite. That woman was not very helpful and would say NO to everything ... typical behavior from Embassy!

There are several examples on this forum alone of people arriving on a tourist visa in Germany and then applying successfully for residence card for family member of EU nationals.

I specifically remember one thread - the OP had no problem getting an RC for his mother but had trouble getting one for his brother (extended family member). Both had arrived in Germany on short term Schengen tourist visas.

On the other hand, have you researched what Brexit might mean for your plan or what Camerons 'deal' with the EU might mean for you in case the UK stays in the EU?

This is what I found in Gov document. It also goes into details of how Govt is planning to implement these reforms. read more hear ... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _ready.pdf

Abuse of free movement
2.116
Our new settlement has secured a commitment to new legislation to help prevent
non-EU nationals using EU law to evade UK immigration controls. The Government has also
secured agreement on the additional action we can take to prevent fraud and abuse of free
movement.
2.117
This represents the strongest package we have ever had to tackle the abuse of free
movement and close down the back-door routes to the UK.
2.118
The UK accepts the free movement of workers across the EU. The UK economy
benefits from it and it allows UK nationals to live and work in the EU. But when this principle is
abused or creates more favourable treatment for nationals of other EU countries than for UK
citizens, this is clearly unfair and erodes public confidence in our ability to control immigration
into the UK.
2.119
The agreement we have secured contains a commitment to new legislation, making
important changes, which will help ensure that non-EU nationals will no longer be able to
take advantage of EU law to get around our immigration controls. The European Commission
Declaration makes clear that it will propose new secondary legislation “in order to exclude,
from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful
residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or who marry a Union citizen
only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host Member State”. This means
that non-EU nationals who have been living in the UK illegally will no longer be able to evade
our immigration controls by marrying an EU national. In addition, non-EU nationals who are
married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet
the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in. In the UK that includes an
income test and English language requirement.
2.12 0
These changes will remove the incentive for sham marriage and mean that all non-EU
nationals will have to meet the immigration controls of the first Member State that they enter,
addressing the unfairness of the current situation, in which it is easier for an EU national to
bring a non-EU spouse to the UK than it is for a UK national.
2.121
The International Law Decision makes clear the actions that we can take to deal with
non-EU nationals who attempt to evade our domestic immigration controls by fraudulently
maintaining a marriage or by residing with a UK spouse in another Member State for a
short period before moving to the UK (relying on the ‘Surinder Singh’ route) in order to take
advantage of free movement rules. It confirms that “Member States are able to take action
to prevent abuse of rights or fraud (...) and address cases of contracting or maintaining
marriages of convenience with third country nationals for the purpose of making use of free
movement as a route for regularising unlawful stay in a Member State or address cases of
making use of free movement as a route for bypassing national immigration rules”.
2.12 2
The UK will also take further domestic steps to create stronger and longer re-entry
bans for those who abuse free movement rights, increasing them from 12 months to three
years.
2.12 3
The package also commits Member States to better data sharing and co-operation
between national authorities in order to tackle abuse of free movement that will help underpin
the successful delivery of this new package of measures.

[ALKB]

Someone threw a spanner in the plan earlier.

I rang up the Residence Permit section of German Embassy UK to ask if my parents are issued with a Tourist Visa would they be able to apply for Residence Permit directly in Germany. The woman on the other side replied NO and they have to go back to home country and apply for 'Family reunification' visa. She said nationalities of certain countries are not issued RC within Germany. Pakistan being one of them (parent's home)

When I insisted that German Immigration website does not state any distinction applied based on nationality she simply said different councils in German may interpret it differently so you can go and try !! like it is not a big deal to move the entire center of your life to a new country just to find out whether this whole thing will work or not.

I've looked up and book an appointment with a German Immigration Lawyer for tomorrow to check for definite. That woman was not very helpful and would say NO to everything ... typical behavior from Embassy!

There are several examples on this forum alone of people arriving on a tourist visa in Germany and then applying successfully for residence card for family member of EU nationals.

I specifically remember one thread - the OP had no problem getting an RC for his mother but had trouble getting one for his brother (extended family member). Both had arrived in Germany on short term Schengen tourist visas.

On the other hand, have you researched what Brexit might mean for your plan or what Camerons 'deal' with the EU might mean for you in case the UK stays in the EU?

This is what I found in Gov document. It also goes into details of how Govt is planning to implement these reforms. read more hear ... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _ready.pdf


2.119
The agreement we have secured contains a commitment to new legislation, making
important changes, which will help ensure that non-EU nationals will no longer be able to
take advantage of EU law to get around our immigration controls. The European Commission
Declaration makes clear that it will propose new secondary legislation “in order to exclude,
from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful
residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or who marry a Union citizen
only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host Member State”. This means
that non-EU nationals who have been living in the UK illegally will no longer be able to evade
our immigration controls by marrying an EU national. In addition, non-EU nationals who are
married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet
the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in. In the UK that includes an
income test and English language requirement.

I think that's the crucial bit. It doesn't mention parents but that doesn't mean it won't be applied to them...

[ALKB]

Talking to a German immigration lawyer is a good idea. Just make sure they know that you are dealing with EU and not domestic immigration law. It's quite different.

I have an appointment with the Lawyer next week but she has answered the main question I asked that YES we can apply for RC whilst in Germany with Schengen type C visa. But she does want to discuss the overall situation with me having no prior arrangement of work there.

With all the costs to maintain 5 people and sky high rent I was thinking what if I settle the family there and keep working in UK for couple of months until I find a job in Germany. I know this period will not be counted towards the Center of Life tests but at least the family will be in the process of getting the RC based on self-sufficiency. The ultimate aim will be to finally move myself there but its just trying not to lose the source of income until I secure something decent in Germany.

Do you know if I am even allowed to do that ? with non-eu dependents in the host state

If you are registered as resident in Germany you can work remotely but need to pay taxes, social security contributions and health insurance into the German systems.

A bit of a can of worms, not cheap but certainly legal.

BUT I don't think this will count as self-sufficient for the purpose of applying for residence card as it might be seen as abuse of the system = same business as in UK, same clients - what is the reason you need to be in Germany for?

Freedom of movement is to facilitate the movement of workers who are moving in order to work in a different member state.

You wouldn't move in order to work, you'd move your work in order to get residency for your parents.

I don't know whether that will do you any good.

[ALKB]

Have you researched where most of the jobs are for your specific expertise?

Have you researched where in Germany you will go at all?

I have an uncle in Dussledorf so i was hoping that if I get a flat/house for 5 near him for the first 3 months then it would give me a chance to look for work. When I find something suitable we can come out of the 90 day contract into a new one. How strict are the laws governing accommodation?
As you rightly mentioned there are very few properties that can house 5 people.In UK, 4 people can easily live in a 2 bedroom flat but every advert I look at in Germany shows max people allowed conditions. How strictly are these applied in reality.
Is there a way to find cheaper accommodation as it seems very expensive on the websites.

Most IT jobs seem to be in Frankfurt, Hamburg or Berlin. so I am concentrating on these areas.

90 day contract?

What kind of websites are you looking at?

Certainly not regular residential lettings.

If you are looking at some sort of furnished short term lets/serviced furnished apartments, yes, those are really expensive and quite strict regarding number of people (due to insurance or something).

Flats in Germany are rented out long term and are bare bones: no light fixtures, carpets, curtains, often not even a fitted k i t c h e n. By law a landlord only needs to provide a sink and a cooker. Germans tend to stay in their flats for many years, often decades, and prefer to decorate everything to their liking.

Have you tried to find maybe a zwischenmiete where people rent out their flat while studying/working abroad/travelling?

There as well the landlord might not be happy to rent out to too many people as that means more wear and tear. Not informing the landlord about all people moving in won't work either (and is not legal) as the landlord has to provide some paperwork for the registration of residence.

Also; without a German employer and no credit history, you might struggle to rent anything on the general market.

Finding a job ASAP would make nearly everything a lot easier. A lot.

Have you contacted some employers? German employers are much less hesitant to consider somebody who is not yet in the country than UK employers, especially if the person doesn't need a work permit and is only a short budget airline flight away.

[noajthan]

With all the costs to maintain 5 people and sky high rent I was thinking what if I settle the family there and keep working in UK for couple of months until I find a job in Germany. I know this period will not be counted towards the Center of Life tests but at least the family will be in the process of getting the RC based on self-sufficiency. The ultimate aim will be to finally move myself there but its just trying not to lose the source of income until I secure something decent in Germany.

Do you know if I am even allowed to do that ? with non-eu dependents in the host state

Your dependents can't be sponsored in Germany if you, the Union citizen and sponsor, are not there with them.

[mak35]

On the other hand, have you researched what Brexit might mean for your plan or what Camerons 'deal' with the EU might mean for you in case the UK stays in the EU?

This is what I found in Gov document. It also goes into details of how Govt is planning to implement these reforms. read more hear ... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _ready.pdf

2.119
The agreement we have secured contains a commitment to new legislation, making
important changes, which will help ensure that non-EU nationals will no longer be able to
take advantage of EU law to get around our immigration controls. The European Commission
Declaration makes clear that it will propose new secondary legislation “in order to exclude,
from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful
residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or who marry a Union citizen
only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host Member State”. This means
that non-EU nationals who have been living in the UK illegally will no longer be able to evade
our immigration controls by marrying an EU national. In addition, non-EU nationals who are
married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet
the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in. In the UK that includes an
income test and English language requirement.

I think that's the crucial bit. It doesn't mention parents but that doesn't mean it won't be applied to them...

Yeh .. parents are not mentioned and there is nothing that will stop UK to try and implement these changes in the case of parents. EU has also promised to implement these changes as soon as a decision is made by UK to stay in the EU.
BUT it states "The European Commission Declaration makes clear that it will propose new secondary legislation .. I guess no one knows how long will that take .. have you guys come across any thing that suggests what will be the time frame? I looked at many EU reform documents and the above document by far seems to have a lot of detail in it.

How does this apply in the parents case? “in order to exclude,
from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful
residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or who marry a Union citizen
only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host Member State”.

So if I arrive in Germany with parents before 23 June and lets suppose we manage to get RC based on Self-Sufficiency or I find work, how would that apply to us. Because then we will have lawful residence before the secondary legislation kicks in.

Also what does that mean "all non-EU
nationals will have to meet the immigration controls of the first Member State that they enter,
addressing the unfairness of the current situation, in which it is easier for an EU national to
bring a non-EU spouse to the UK than it is for a UK national."

how would the German law be applied to a third country national who is already in the country then?

[mak35]

90 day contract?
What kind of websites are you looking at?

I just googled it and yes you are right these are all furnished and very expensive. Do you know of any local websites / letting agencies I can look at?

Have you contacted some employers? German employers are much less hesitant to consider somebody who is not yet in the country than UK employers, especially if the person doesn't need a work permit and is only a short budget airline flight away.

I have been sending out CVs but no response yet. I know just sending the CV is not good enough, I will try to call the recruiters too. any suggestions on job websites?

[ALKB]

So if I arrive in Germany with parents before 23 June and lets suppose we manage to get RC based on Self-Sufficiency or I find work, how would that apply to us. Because then we will have lawful residence before the secondary legislation kicks in.

Also what does that mean "all non-EU
nationals will have to meet the immigration controls of the first Member State that they enter,
addressing the unfairness of the current situation, in which it is easier for an EU national to
bring a non-EU spouse to the UK than it is for a UK national."

how would the German law be applied to a third country national who is already in the country then?

I don't know. Nobody does at this point of time, I imagine.

But since you are unlikely to have returned to the UK with your parents before 23 June, you should at least be aware that there are changes coming no matter what is the outcome of the referendum and that even if your parents are then grandfathered in in Germany, the door to the UK could close relatively quickly for them. Are you willing to stay in Germany long term if that happens?

[Hamza2013]

Hi ALKB,

The comment regarding stopping close relative to UK, there are many detailed discussion happened on this group and no one is aware as what will be the outcome, however the white paper released for new EU rules if UK stays in EU only emphasize on spouses and do not discuss particularly for dependent parents, children etc i.e. if UK stays within EU there will still be free movement but with stricter rules.

In other scenario if UK Brexit then it will take at least 2 years to imply Article 10 and change the rules. Do you have any different information then this? Thanks

[ALKB]

I just googled it and yes you are right these are all furnished and very expensive. Do you know of any local websites / letting agencies I can look at?

Letting agencies are less common in Germany and charge the tenant huge fees (often several months rent = Provision).

Try this:

http://www.zwischenmiete.de/

https://www.studenten-wg.de/zwischenmiete.html

http://www.immobilienscout24.de/wohnen/ ... ungen.html

http://www.wg-gesucht.de/

or here (this is like the gumtree of Germany):

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-auf ... ete/k0c199

You'll need German language skills or some intense online translating for this.

Kaltmiete = basic rent Warmmiete = The amount you actually pay = Rent including service charges and what is a bit like council tax. Utilities are on top of that unless otherwise stated.

I have been sending out CVs but no response yet. I know just sending the CV is not good enough, I will try to call the recruiters too. any suggestions on job websites?

Are you applying in German standard? Or are you just sending out CV's?

In Germany, the cover letter is equally as important as the CV.

It is also expected to include a good (studio) application picture of yourself (do an image search of Bewerbungsfoto and you will see what is expected) and scans of your qualifications and references.

Often, if a contact telephone number is provided, it is expected that an applicant calls before sending the application and states that in the cover letter (Dear soandso, with reference to our telephone conversation earlier today...) . I once worked for an employer who automatically rejected everybody who had not called beforehand.

Good web sites are

monster.de

stepstone.de

and big local newspapers like

morgenpost.de and

tagesspiegel.de for Berlin

[ALKB]

Hi ALKB,

The comment regarding stopping close relative to UK, there are many detailed discussion happened on this group and no one is aware as what will be the outcome, however the white paper released for new EU rules if UK stays in EU only emphasize on spouses and do not discuss particularly for dependent parents, children etc i.e. if UK stays within EU there will still be free movement but with stricter rules.

In other scenario if UK Brexit then it will take at least 2 years to imply Article 10 and change the rules. Do you have any different information then this? Thanks

No, as I said, I don't know.

It is just my personal opinion that just because family members other than spouses are not specifically mentioned doesn't mean that things will not change for them, especially since the UK is kicking and screaming to not let them in under UK rules and many other EU countries are not exactly jumping for joy, either - my husband is a naturalised German national and he would not be able to bring his parents to Germany under domestic immigration rules.

Also, even if it takes 2 years to actually exit the EU should a Brexit occur, it's not like the UK would not be able to tighten centre of life rules to the point of impossible in the meantime or something similar. The EU in that case would have little leverage - what will they threaten the UK with? Throwing them out of EU?

[Hamza2013]

Thanks ALKB,

So it is clear as mud, i strongly believe that if non EU family members are in EU before all these changes, Uk can not build walls over the night to stop their own citizens along with non EU members living with them in another EU countries. I reckon the rules will be tightened but certainly will not stop the existing citizens to re-enter UK else it will be breach of human rights (i am talking about people who are already in EU under EU treaty rights).

Now this is all speculations and no one is sure. If your husband is looking to bring his parents, he can exercise his treaty rights in another EU country with relax rules and bring them over back to his own home EU contry.

[ALKB]

Thanks ALKB,

So it is clear as mud, i strongly believe that if non EU family members are in EU before all these changes, Uk can not build walls over the night to stop their own citizens along with non EU members living with them in another EU countries. I reckon the rules will be tightened but certainly will not stop the existing citizens to re-enter UK else it will be breach of human rights (i am talking about people who are already in EU under EU treaty rights).

Now this is all speculations and no one is sure. If your husband is looking to bring his parents, he can exercise his treaty rights in another EU country with relax rules and bring them over back to his own home EU contry.

We are living in the UK and exercising treaty rights plenty.

Thankfully he doesn't have to bring his parents here and neither do they want to move. I am an only child and my parents are getting old, too. Can't and won't take care of two sets at once, especially since my husband has 6 siblings.

[Hamza2013]

Thanks ALKB,

So it is clear as mud, i strongly believe that if non EU family members are in EU before all these changes, Uk can not build walls over the night to stop their own citizens along with non EU members living with them in another EU countries. I reckon the rules will be tightened but certainly will not stop the existing citizens to re-enter UK else it will be breach of human rights (i am talking about people who are already in EU under EU treaty rights).

Now this is all speculations and no one is sure. If your husband is looking to bring his parents, he can exercise his treaty rights in another EU country with relax rules and bring them over back to his own home EU contry.

We are living in the UK and exercising treaty rights plenty.

Thankfully he doesn't have to bring his parents here and neither do they want to move. I am an only child and my parents are getting old, too. Can't and won't take care of two sets at once, especially since my husband has 6 siblings.

i can understand,

[heetdpatel]

Do we have any update?

I am trying to do this route now. I setup the limited (GMBH) company in Germany. And now I am going to start trading from August. So please can you confirm if there are any change in rules?

[Wanderer]

Do we have any update?

I am trying to do this route now. I setup the limited (GMBH) company in Germany. And now I am going to start trading from August. So please can you confirm if there are any change in rules?

Would you not have been better setting up as a Freiberufler?

[mak35]

Do we have any update?

I am trying to do this route now. I setup the limited (GMBH) company in Germany. And now I am going to start trading from August. So please can you confirm if there are any change in rules?

Would you not have been better setting up as a Freiberufler?

I agree with Wanderer. I have been in Germany since June. My first month of working was through my UK Ltd company and it was a way to starting the process in Germany. Based on that I was able to get German RC for my parents. Then I found a proper contract with a big German company and have been freelancing since mid July. It has only been a month and the initial contract is only until end of September but I am hopeful that it will be extended.
If not, I will have to look for something else but my plan is to return to UK end of December. I guess I would have to apply for EEA permit by end of November. I would hopefully be going back after completing 6 months.
Do you guys think its enough?
I have had very limited internet here in Germany due to messing about of some internet companies and have not been in touch with this Brexit a lot. Seems like UK will trigger article 50 start of next year.
Also one more important question that in preparation for going back I have the following now
1. Tenancy agreement with my parents and family member names
2. My parents German RC
3. My wife should receive her RC soon too
4. Our tax numbers
5. Me and my parents "Auskunft über die Steuerliche Identifikationsnummer" - "Information on the Tax Identification Number"
6. Sozialversicherungsausweis - our Social Security numbers
7. Invoices from work
8. Freelance Tax registration number
9. VAT number
10. Contract from German employer
11. My whole family is now insured with German health insurance TK - very expensive due to my freelance work

Things that are in progress
1. Looking for a nursery for my 3 year old daughter. No places in the near by nurseries and they are asking us to come next year!!
2. Gym membership
3. Library membership
4. Start to learn the German language. Really need to do this. Even though I am working for a German employer but they all speak English so I am not having much of a difficulty. But I guess for centre of life its a must.

Anything else you think I should do whilst I am there that can make my case stronger?

Also do I need to declare in UK that I am now a resident of Germany? Do I need to tell the UK Tax authorities? Wanderer / Nojthan can you point me to any threads on this topic please?

Also in my first month from June to mid July I was going back and forth between UK and Germany as I was trying to close operations in UK and start up in Germany. In the mean time we had our baby born in UK too and then my wife and kids moved in the beginning of August. My parents had been with me in Germany since June. Do you think it could cause any issues and be seen as I have not moved my centre of life.
But from the end of July to December I would probably visit UK once to attend a wedding and that would be it.

[mak35]

Hi,

One more important thing.

I am paying a very high health insurance and taxes obviously due to my freelance set up and how much I earn.
Can we claim child benefit in Germany? I think I will have to restrict my working hours to 30 hrs per week if I was to be eligible for that but I heard the child benefit is quite generous in Germany.

Since I am paying a lot of money toward social system I should get some benefit out of it too? what are your thoughts?

Also I am not claiming anything for the new baby in UK but for our elder daughter she has only been in Germany for 3 weeks so I have not had the chance to stop her child benefit. Do I need to stop that if I am not claiming anything for her in Germany?

[heetdpatel]

Do we have any update?

I am trying to do this route now. I setup the limited (GMBH) company in Germany. And now I am going to start trading from August. So please can you confirm if there are any change in rules?

Would you not have been better setting up as a Freiberufler?

I agree with Wanderer. I have been in Germany since June. My first month of working was through my UK Ltd company and it was a way to starting the process in Germany. Based on that I was able to get German RC for my parents. Then I found a proper contract with a big German company and have been freelancing since mid July. It has only been a month and the initial contract is only until end of September but I am hopeful that it will be extended.
If not, I will have to look for something else but my plan is to return to UK end of December. I guess I would have to apply for EEA permit by end of November. I would hopefully be going back after completing 6 months.
Do you guys think its enough?
I have had very limited internet here in Germany due to messing about of some internet companies and have not been in touch with this Brexit a lot. Seems like UK will trigger article 50 start of next year.
Also one more important question that in preparation for going back I have the following now
1. Tenancy agreement with my parents and family member names
2. My parents German RC
3. My wife should receive her RC soon too
4. Our tax numbers
5. Me and my parents "Auskunft über die Steuerliche Identifikationsnummer" - "Information on the Tax Identification Number"
6. Sozialversicherungsausweis - our Social Security numbers
7. Invoices from work
8. Freelance Tax registration number
9. VAT number
10. Contract from German employer
11. My whole family is now insured with German health insurance TK - very expensive due to my freelance work

Things that are in progress
1. Looking for a nursery for my 3 year old daughter. No places in the near by nurseries and they are asking us to come next year!!
2. Gym membership
3. Library membership
4. Start to learn the German language. Really need to do this. Even though I am working for a German employer but they all speak English so I am not having much of a difficulty. But I guess for centre of life its a must.

Anything else you think I should do whilst I am there that can make my case stronger?

Also do I need to declare in UK that I am now a resident of Germany? Do I need to tell the UK Tax authorities? Wanderer / Nojthan can you point me to any threads on this topic please?

Also in my first month from June to mid July I was going back and forth between UK and Germany as I was trying to close operations in UK and start up in Germany. In the mean time we had our baby born in UK too and then my wife and kids moved in the beginning of August. My parents had been with me in Germany since June. Do you think it could cause any issues and be seen as I have not moved my centre of life.
But from the end of July to December I would probably visit UK once to attend a wedding and that would be it.

Currently in which city you are? council take 1 month time for registration as a EU citizen? because they giving date for after 1 month? If you can help. we are in Hamburg.

[Bobthemoggie]

Really helpful discussing. Thanks for sharing.

We should have similar thread about Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Switzerland also.

Cheers

[ALKB]

Can we claim child benefit in Germany? I think I will have to restrict my working hours to 30 hrs per week if I was to be eligible for that but I heard the child benefit is quite generous in Germany.

Since I am paying a lot of money toward social system I should get some benefit out of it too? what are your thoughts?

Also I am not claiming anything for the new baby in UK but for our elder daughter she has only been in Germany for 3 weeks so I have not had the chance to stop her child benefit. Do I need to stop that if I am not claiming anything for her in Germany?

You are eligible for child benefit (Kindergeld) in Germany but you will have to stop your UK child benefit for that.

German child benefit is not means tested, it's the same amount for everyone, whether unemployed or millionaire.

Keeping UK child benefit would work against you in the centre of life test anyhow, so it would be preferable to stop all and any kind of payments there.

[ALKB]

Also one more important question that in preparation for going back I have the following now
1. Tenancy agreement with my parents and family member names
2. My parents German RC
3. My wife should receive her RC soon too
4. Our tax numbers
5. Me and my parents "Auskunft über die Steuerliche Identifikationsnummer" - "Information on the Tax Identification Number"
6. Sozialversicherungsausweis - our Social Security numbers
7. Invoices from work
8. Freelance Tax registration number
9. VAT number
10. Contract from German employer
11. My whole family is now insured with German health insurance TK - very expensive due to my freelance work

Things that are in progress
1. Looking for a nursery for my 3 year old daughter. No places in the near by nurseries and they are asking us to come next year!!
2. Gym membership
3. Library membership
4. Start to learn the German language. Really need to do this. Even though I am working for a German employer but they all speak English so I am not having much of a difficulty. But I guess for centre of life its a must.

Anything else you think I should do whilst I am there that can make my case stronger?

Also do I need to declare in UK that I am now a resident of Germany? Do I need to tell the UK Tax authorities? Wanderer / Nojthan can you point me to any threads on this topic please?

Also in my first month from June to mid July I was going back and forth between UK and Germany as I was trying to close operations in UK and start up in Germany. In the mean time we had our baby born in UK too and then my wife and kids moved in the beginning of August. My parents had been with me in Germany since June. Do you think it could cause any issues and be seen as I have not moved my centre of life.
But from the end of July to December I would probably visit UK once to attend a wedding and that would be it.

Ask your health insurance for a 'Rückbildungsgymnastik-Kurs' for your wife, it's a special class to help women after birth, mainly to strengthen the pelvic floor. Health insurance should pay it, she can take the baby along, will meet other new mums in the area and you can add the documentation to your supporting evidence of having your centre of life in Germany.

Do you have any evidence regarding your parents' participation in society? Could they attend a German language course? I think that would help a lot and show that they were thinking of making Germany their long term home.

[ALKB]

Things that are in progress
1. Looking for a nursery for my 3 year old daughter. No places in the near by nurseries and they are asking us to come next year!!

West Germany is traditionally very, very short on nursery places but you do have a legal right to a nursery place once your child is three. In theory. You can always sue the council...

The problem is, that most parents put their child on wait lists as soon as they are born and children of single mothers or parents who both need to work to not fall into social security get priority.

Did you only enquire with nurseries directly? Have you already spoken to teh relevant department at the council?

I am not sure how things are organised in Düsseldorf, but in Berlin, you'd have to apply for a place at the council, get a document that states how many hours a week you are eligible for and THEN go to nurseries. The council should also be able to advise on how to get a place on such short notice, if at all possible. Services are really under a lot of strain at the moment.

You might want to look into Eltern-Kind-Initiativen (Ekita) = nurseries run by parents that require a parent to work at the nursery as a helper about once a month or so.

[Bobthemoggie]

Hi Guys

If its possible, could you please advise-
What documents do you provided for non-EU parents as evidence of dependence at the stage of RC application?

Your help is much appriciated

Cheers & good luck