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Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

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nswelton
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Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by nswelton » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:04 am

Hi,

I am self employed and am a photographer. My wife is a Norwegian citizen and I am a US citizen. Can I work in the EU if I have a residency permit from Norway (as an EEA member)?

ThankS!

Wanderer
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Re: Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by Wanderer » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:53 am

nswelton wrote:Hi,

I am self employed and am a photographer. My wife is a Norwegian citizen and I am a US citizen. Can I work in the EU if I have a residency permit from Norway (as an EEA member)?

ThankS!
Yes, so long as your wife accompanies you.
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republique
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Re: Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by republique » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:19 am

Wanderer wrote:
nswelton wrote:Hi,

I am self employed and am a photographer. My wife is a Norwegian citizen and I am a US citizen. Can I work in the EU if I have a residency permit from Norway (as an EEA member)?

ThankS!

Yes, so long as your wife accompanies you.
More precisely, she must be a resident of the country you are working in.
She can not merely accompany you into another country so you can work.

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Re: Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by Ben » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:27 am

republique wrote:She can not merely accompany you into another country so you can work.
Yes she can, why would you say she cannot?
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republique
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Re: Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by republique » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:22 pm

benifa wrote:
republique wrote:She can not merely accompany you into another country so you can work.
Yes she can, why would you say she cannot?
You are reading it wrong.
the EU citizen can't just travel country A monday and to country B tuesday so that the non ea person can work there on those two days. The EU citizen must be working or living there, exercising her treaty rights so that the spouse can work there too. If the EU citizen is just visiting that day, the eu spouse can't work in that country on that day too by virtue of the EU citizen's presence in the country at the same time. dMf

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Re: Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by Ben » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:27 pm

republique wrote:
benifa wrote:
republique wrote:She can not merely accompany you into another country so you can work.
Yes she can, why would you say she cannot?
You are reading it wrong.
the EU citizen can't just travel country A monday and to country B tuesday so that the non ea person can work there on those two days. The EU citizen must be working or living there, exercising her treaty rights so that the spouse can work there too. If the EU citizen is just visiting that day, the eu spouse can't work in that country on that day too by virtue of the EU citizen's presence in the country at the same time. dMf
I hate to contradict you republique, but that's quite wrong.

The EU national can just travel country A Monday and to country B Tuesday so that their non-EEA national family member can work there on those two days.

This is precisely the freedom of movement of EU nationals and their family members as laid out in Directive 2004/38/EC.

Such movement by the couple, and employment / self-employment by the non-EEA national family member, is entirely lawful.
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nswelton
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thanks!

Post by nswelton » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:43 pm

wow, thanks for your answers!

just to confirm though, my wife isn't an eu national, but rather an eea national (norwegian), and i'd be an american citizen with a residence permit in norway. does her being an eea national instead of an eu national make a difference?

anyway, i'm confused. say i get a job shooting an event in italy while i am living in norway as a permanent resident. does this directive mean it's legal for me to shoot the job in italy so long as my wife is physically present in italy with me? does she have to be working as my assistant or something, or can she just fly to italy with me?

thanks!
nathan

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Re: thanks!

Post by 86ti » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:49 pm

nswelton wrote:wow, thanks for your answers!

just to confirm though, my wife isn't an eu national, but rather an eea national (norwegian), and i'd be an american citizen with a residence permit in norway. does her being an eea national instead of an eu national make a difference?
No.

nswelton wrote:anyway, i'm confused. say i get a job shooting an event in italy while i am living in norway as a permanent resident. does this directive mean it's legal for me to shoot the job in italy so long as my wife is physically present in italy with me? does she have to be working as my assistant or something, or can she just fly to italy with me?
Physical presence alone is sufficient.

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Post by Wanderer » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:02 pm

Doesn't the factor of exercising a treaty right come into this before the OP can work as suggested?

And that would only happen after three months residency.

I must admit I have two opinions on this one, I'm interested to see how this thread pans out.
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Post by Ben » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:12 pm

The couple have the right of residency from day one of entering another Member State.

Either or both can work immediately.
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Post by 86ti » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:13 pm

Wanderer wrote:Doesn't the factor of exercising a treaty right come into this before the OP can work as suggested? And that would only happen after three months residency.
The right to work is not dependend on formalities and therefore there from day one. Your right to stay in the first three month is only conditional on having the passports/IDs, visas if necessary and the proof of relationship.

(Posts crossed yet again! But I can't always win...)

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Re: Working in the EU with an EEA residency permit

Post by republique » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:56 pm

benifa wrote:
republique wrote:
benifa wrote:
republique wrote:She can not merely accompany you into another country so you can work.
Yes she can, why would you say she cannot?
You are reading it wrong.
the EU citizen can't just travel country A monday and to country B tuesday so that the non ea person can work there on those two days. The EU citizen must be working or living there, exercising her treaty rights so that the spouse can work there too. If the EU citizen is just visiting that day, the eu spouse can't work in that country on that day too by virtue of the EU citizen's presence in the country at the same time. dMf
I hate to contradict you republique, but that's quite wrong.

The EU national can just travel country A Monday and to country B Tuesday so that their non-EEA national family member can work there on those two days.

This is precisely the freedom of movement of EU nationals and their family members as laid out in Directive 2004/38/EC.

Such movement by the couple, and employment / self-employment by the non-EEA national family member, is entirely lawful.
Good luck on any employer relying on a such a scenario to employ a non EU national nor would it be economically prudent to work in this manner. On principle, what you say is correct, on a practical level the nexus is residency not presence.

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Post by nswelton » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:30 pm

okay, still no straight answer, but i appreciate everyone helping out :)

not sure if this matters, but let's say it's well past the three months, which would eliminate any conditionality of my papers.

also, not sure if this matters either, but it would be an independent contractor type of agreement, where i work for a private person for just one day to shoot their event (say it's a wedding or something).

thanks again!

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Post by Ben » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:45 pm

Look, nswelton is a self-employed photographer, presumably on a freelance type basis.

It is lawful for him to enter the territory of another EU Member State, in the company of his spouse, where he can engage in economic activity (such as freelance photography) from day one.

Conditions only come in to it if the couple were to remain in any single Member State for longer than three months at a time. In such a case, nswelton's spouse must be either employed, self-employed, a student, or financially self-sufficient.

To use again republique's previous example, it is entirely lawful for the couple to enter country A on Monday, proceed to country B Tuesday.. and so on. The non-EEA national family member can engage in employment or self-employment immediately.
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Post by Obie » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:36 pm

Just some few points.

1. The non-EEA national is entitled to join or accompany an EEA national, when he or she moves to another member state to exercise her rights of movement, provided in Article 18 of the Rome Treaty, as ammended.

2. For the non- EEA national to take up employment and reside for a period longer than 3 months, the EEA sponsor would need to be exercising one of the treaty rights.

3. Member state are not oblidge to issue a document confirming the right of a family member to reside in an EEA state, without first seeing evidence that the EEA national on whom they are dependant is exercising treaty rights, as the right of a family member to install him/herself in a member state, is dependant on the EEA national doing the same.

4. Simply getting an EEA national to accompany you to a Memberstate 2 days when you are working and returning again after that period, does not confer the right of employment to a non-EEA family member, except the family member can demonstrate that the EEA nation on whom he depends is a Frontier worker, or living in that state as an economically inactive, or Economically active person as stipulated on the EC treaty.

Therefore some form for evidence like a Medical insurance or evidence of an economic activity being undertaken, would need to be furnished, for the third country national to invokes these community rights.
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Post by Ben » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:02 pm

Obie wrote:4. Simply getting an EEA national to accompany you to a Memberstate 2 days when you are working and returning again after that period, does not confer the right of employment to a non-EEA family member, except the family member can demonstrate that the EEA nation on whom he depends is a Frontier worker, or living in that state as an economically inactive, or Economically active person as stipulated on the EC treaty.

Therefore some form for evidence like a Medical insurance or evidence of an economic activity being undertaken, would need to be furnished, for the third country national to invokes these community rights.
I was nodding my head reading most of this post, until I saw what is quoted.

Let's take this step by step.

We know from Directive 2004/38/EC that an EU national has the right enter the territory of another Member State and remain there for up to three months without any condition or formality other than the requirement to hold a valid passport or National ID card.

We know from Directive 2004/38/EC that the family members referred to in Articles 2(2) and 3(2) of the Directive have the right to accompany or join the EU national during his period of residence in the territory of another Member State.

We know from Article 24 of Directive 2004/38/EC that an EU national and his family members have the right to be treated equally with the nationals of the host Member State, during their period of residence in that Member State.

To conclude, in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, a non-EU national has the right to enter the territory of another EU Member State, in the company of his EU national spouse, where either have right to engage in economic activity from day one, just as a national of that Member State would be able to.
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Post by Obie » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:44 pm

I hate to disagree with you, but i am not sure the last paragraph of your statement is entirely correct.

If your read recital 5 of directive 2004/38EC, you will notice that treaty rights is only awarded to EEA national, and not to their third country national family members.

In order to ensure their is no hinderance to EEA national exercising these right, the right is extended to their family members too, subject to the EEA national exercising treaty rights in the first instance.

If it was possible for third country national to gain right to work in a member state without the EEA national exercising treaty rights, then memberstate will not request proof of the EEA sponsor exercising treaty rights before a Residence Card confirming the right of residence of the family members, but as you possibly know, they request those information, and rightly so.

To conclude, i will say the right of a family member who is a third country national to work in a memberstate is dependant on the EEA national exercising one of those treaty rights in the first place. Once that is done, all the priviledges attached to an EEA nation by virtue of the treaty which is provided for in directive 2004/38EC, applies to them aswell.
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Carpenter ruling

Post by eldane » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:00 am

Perhaps a different approch would be beneficial.

Why don't you register a company in Norway that automatically gives you the right to exercise reverse comunity rights i.e sell your services to other EEA countries without you having to take up residence in that country (which I understand is not your target anyway).

Ladies and gents may I refer to the Carpenter ruling?
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 60:EN:HTML

In exceptional cases, EEA nationals residing in their country of nationality and providing cross-border services to other EU/EEA Member States are entitled to family reunification under EU law.

In the Carpenter judgment, the European Court of Justice ruled that a Union citizen/an EEA national residing in his/her country of origin, but providing services to customers in other EU/EEA Member States, is entitled to family reunification under EU law in that country under highly exceptional circumstances.

The Carpenter case concerned the British national Mr Carpenter, who provided cross-border services to customers established in other EU Member States and in the United Kingdom. Mr Carpenter's business was established in the UK, and he travelled to other EU Member States for the purpose of his business. The UK Secretary of State made a deportation order against Mr Carpenter's spouse, who is a national of the Philippines, but the European Court of Justice determined that, by virtue of the provisions of the EC Treaty relating to the freedom to provide services, she had a derived right of residence in the UK.

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Post by nswelton » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:53 am

wow, this is more complicated than i thought.

the problem with the carpenter thing is that my wife would be the equivalent to mister carpenter, not me. i am the worker and the non-eea national...

anyway, what does "exercising treaty rights" mean? i'm confused there.

thanks for keeping this under discussion, everyone :)

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Re: Carpenter ruling

Post by republique » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:07 am

eldane wrote:Perhaps a different approch would be beneficial.

Why don't you register a company in Norway that automatically gives you the right to exercise reverse comunity rights i.e sell your services to other EEA countries without you having to take up residence in that country (which I understand is not your target anyway).

Ladies and gents may I refer to the Carpenter ruling?
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 60:EN:HTML

In exceptional cases, EEA nationals residing in their country of nationality and providing cross-border services to other EU/EEA Member States are entitled to family reunification under EU law.

In the Carpenter judgment, the European Court of Justice ruled that a Union citizen/an EEA national residing in his/her country of origin, but providing services to customers in other EU/EEA Member States, is entitled to family reunification under EU law in that country under highly exceptional circumstances.

The Carpenter case concerned the British national Mr Carpenter, who provided cross-border services to customers established in other EU Member States and in the United Kingdom. Mr Carpenter's business was established in the UK, and he travelled to other EU Member States for the purpose of his business. The UK Secretary of State made a deportation order against Mr Carpenter's spouse, who is a national of the Philippines, but the European Court of Justice determined that, by virtue of the provisions of the EC Treaty relating to the freedom to provide services, she had a derived right of residence in the UK.

Eldanes - Michael
And she wasn't even trying to work. In any case, non EU nationals have to work for a company for one year before they can participate in cross border services so that is out and now since others have gone to find the actual legislation, my original interpretation was spot on. You have to be exercising treaty rights for your spouse to work and visiting is not enough to confer that right.

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Post by nswelton » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:10 am

so what does the phrase "exercising treaty rights" actually mean?

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Carpenter ruling

Post by eldane » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:23 am

Hi,

There's another ruling (I will see if I can find it) telling that non-EU personel working for EEA companies and being sent outside their "normal" national business area should be issued with the appropiate visa by said country while performing their job for the EEA company. This visa should be issued under the same criterion as if for a EEA family member.

Perhaps you could contact solvit for them to clarify? http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm

Eldanes - Michael
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Treaty rights

Post by eldane » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:31 am

Exercising an EU Treaty Rights referes to. f.x having worked, being self-employed, studied or lived in anoither EEA country as self providing (I.e have your own fonds to live of) any activity mentioned in Directive 2004/38/EC would be exercising a treaty right.

However, it is not limited to directive 2004/38/EC there are many other directives that would cause you to exercise treaty rights.

El danes - Michael
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Post by 86ti » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:31 am

nswelton wrote:so what does the phrase "exercising treaty rights" actually mean?
Be one of:
1) worker or self-employed
2) self-sufficient (comprehensive sickness insurance explicitly required)
3) student
4) retiree
5) job-seeker or incpacitated person in certain circumstances

Basically it means that EEA nationals must be able to support themselves and their family members without becoming an unreasonable burden to the host member state. Additional comprehensive sickness insurance may be required if they do not have it otherwise.

EDIT:
To not to forget the cases pointed out by others: providing goods and services across borders and/or being a cross-border worker.

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Post by Wanderer » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:59 pm

Edited (well deleted!) cos I didn't read the thread again - got ElenaW's skimming disease..
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