Extended travelling in EU for UK citizen + Canadian spouse

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:00 pm

Hello all,

I've been reading posts for awhile trying to find the answer to my question but no luck so far. I'm hoping someone can provide guidance for my situation:

I am a dual UK / Canadian citizen, and my wife is a naturalized Canadian citizen. We entered Spain about a month ago via cruise ship. We didn't have to go through any passport control when we entered the country, but I am assuming the cruise line provided our details to immigration. I used my Canadian passport when boarding the cruise.

We are planning to travel fairly extensively around Europe. I originally thought we would be staying only a couple of months but we have decided to stay longer. However, I am concerned about the 90 days per 180 day period limit that applies to Canadians.

My questions are, can my wife and I travel in the EU longer than 90 days based on my UK citizenship? If so, do we need to leave and re-enter with my UK passport? Do we need to have any documentation or register for some kind of permit?

ciaramc · Post by **ciaramc** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:00 pm

Ok you can travel all you like around Europe and in each country you are not required to apply for any residence as long as you don't exceed 3 months as per EU regulations (Free movement)! Your wife also enjoys these rights as your family member...simply carry your british passport and marriage certificate!

Have a look at the link

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:EN:PDF

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:07 pm

Thanks for your advice. We just left Europe after traveling for about 4 months and had a bit of trouble at the border. We left by rail from Greece to Turkey.

As we went through exit control in Greece, the border guard insisted that my wife, the Canadian citizen, had overstayed in Europe. He did not care that she was my family and said that I was mistaken to think that she had a right to stay in Europe with me.

In the end he just put an exit stamp in her passport and sent us on our way, saying that because she did not have an entry stamp he couldn't determine how much to fine us.

Have others had similar experiences? Is there any documentation I can carry to show border guards that my wife does indeed have a right to stay in Europe longer than 3 months?

Thanks.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Hi sputnik,

EU Directive 2004/38/EC applies.

Particular, the following sections:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 6 wrote:Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a
period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to
hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid
passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

and

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 7 wrote:Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
..
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State;
..
2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not
nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State,
provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph 1(a), (b) or (c).

A few points to note:

It doesn't matter that you boarded the cruise using your Canadian passport.
It matters that you are a UK national and are able to prove it by presenting a UK passport if requested.
Did you remain in a single country longer than three months? If you did, you should have had comprehensive sickness insurance cover, to cover yourself and your wife.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:24 pm

Thanks benifa.

I understand that we have the right of residence in Europe. The problem was that the Greek border guard didn't agree.

Do you have any thoughts on how to prove it if questioned? Should I carry around printouts of the EU directives?

We didn't remain in any single country longer than 3 months.

Post by **John** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:50 pm

sputnik, will your travels take you out of the Schengen area? For example to the UK, Ireland or Croatia etc etc?

And then will you later re-enter the Schengen area? And if so, will you stay in the Schengen area for more than 3 months?

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:30 pm

Hi John.

Yes, we left the Schengen area a few days ago and are now in Turkey.

We are planning to return to the Schengen area, Greece, in two weeks.

Our travel plans after that aren't fixed but it's possible we'll remain in the Schengen area for more than 3 months. We'll be moving around, not remaining in any one country for more than a few weeks.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:12 pm

We are in Greece now, this time with entry stamps. Any advice on how to avoid problems when we exit the EU if we do stay longer than 3 months?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:16 pm

sputnik wrote:We are in Greece now, this time with entry stamps. Any advice on how to avoid problems when we exit the EU if we do stay longer than 3 months?

There will be no problems if you have been economically self-sufficient during your stay. You have a right to remain longer than three months on this basis. Your spouse has the same right.

sputnik · Post by **sputnik** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:01 pm

benifa, thanks for your response.

I realize that we have a right to remain in the EU. The problem is that the last time we exited from the EU the border guard did not recognize that right. I am looking for some guidance on what to do if we run into that situation again. Can you help?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:47 pm

Print off the Directive if you wish.

If it were me, I'd just let them kick up a fuss if it makes them happy. They can't do anything more. Relax.

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:40 pm

Hi sputnik,

In Short, It is your right under EU law, as an EU citizen, to have your wife accompany or join you in another EU state,
all EU states must facilitate this, unless your wife is on a banned government terror list, or banned disease emergency list.

If the guard used these words to you

He did not care that she was my family and said that I was mistaken to think that she had a right to stay in Europe with me.

Then clearly he does not know his duty, or the laws and rules by which he is bound.

See

1) Practical Handbook for Border Guards (Schengen Handbook) also written in Greek. Further reading found >>here<<
2) As mentioned EU directive 2004/38/EC

This Handbook of rules for Schengen Border Guards says

3. Special rules for checks on certain categories of persons
3.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement
3.1.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement are authorised to cross the border
of a Member State on the basis of the following documents, as a general rule
â€“ EU, EEA, CH citizens: identity card or passport;
â€“ members of the family of EU, EEA, CH citizens who are nationals of a third country: passport.
They may also be required to have an entry visa, if they are nationals of a third
country subject to the visa obligation, unless they are in possession of a valid residence
permit or card, issued by a Member State (or by EEA countries or CH).

3.1.2 However, if a person enjoying the Community right of free movement does not have the
necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned must, before turning him/her back, give such person every reasonable
opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to him/her within a
reasonable period of time or corroborate or prove by other means that he/she is covered by
the right of free movement.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:25 pm

sputnik,

Can you be a little clearer on what you are doing and where. Then it is a little more easy to give you information.

Will you be working while in the various European countries?
Do you have money in the bank and health insurance?
Are you travelling with your UK passport and with your marriage certificate?
Do you want to stay for more than 90 days in any one European country?

meats · Post by **meats** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:33 pm

sputnik,

From time spent reading the Lonely Planet forum, Greece is the main country that is fairly strict with regards the overstaying in the Schengen zone. A lot of people tell of how they had no problems leaving but some did, it seems like it depends on the officer on duty when you leave and whether they can be arsed doing their job or not. You're quite lucky in that your partner wasn't banned having been stopped as i've read of some people leaving Greece having overstayed the 3 months in Schengen and getting a black stamp in their passport.

As the OP has a UK passport, will that have an affect on his wife seeing as the UK isn't part of Schengen? I'd have thought that it would.

Just another pointer, it's 3 months in and 3 months out, so leaving Schengen for a couple of days and then re-entering isn't technically allowed although your wife seems to have gotten away with it.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:49 am

meats wrote:Just another pointer, it's 3 months in and 3 months out, so leaving Schengen for a couple of days and then re-entering isn't technically allowed although your wife seems to have gotten away with it.

This is true for normal Schengen entry, but it is very unclear if this can be enforced for family members of an EU citizen who are travelling with the EU citizen.

meats · Post by **meats** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:57 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
meats wrote:Just another pointer, it's 3 months in and 3 months out, so leaving Schengen for a couple of days and then re-entering isn't technically allowed although your wife seems to have gotten away with it.
This is true for normal Schengen entry, but it is very unclear if this can be enforced for family members of an EU citizen who are travelling with the EU citizen.

I don't see why it wouldn't be enforced to be honest. The EU citizen hasn't been exercising treaty rights as he's on holiday so why wouldn't the 90 days in and 90 days out apply to the non-EU wife?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:41 am

meats wrote:
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
meats wrote:Just another pointer, it's 3 months in and 3 months out, so leaving Schengen for a couple of days and then re-entering isn't technically allowed although your wife seems to have gotten away with it.
This is true for normal Schengen entry, but it is very unclear if this can be enforced for family members of an EU citizen who are travelling with the EU citizen.
I don't see why it wouldn't be enforced to be honest. The EU citizen hasn't been exercising treaty rights as he's on holiday so why wouldn't the 90 days in and 90 days out apply to the non-EU wife?

Because there is no condition attached to stays of less than 90 days. There is no need to be exercising treaty rights... And that is 90 days for a stay in one member state, and then the clock resets when you move to the next member state.

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:46 am

meats wrote:I don't see why it wouldn't be enforced to be honest. The EU citizen hasn't been exercising treaty rights as he's on holiday so why wouldn't the 90 days in and 90 days out apply to the non-EU wife?

Let's not forget that:

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 6 wrote:Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a
period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to
hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid
passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 7 wrote:Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
..
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on
the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and
have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State;
..
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions
referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).
2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not
nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State,
provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph 1(a), (b) or (c).

Whether or not the EU national had comprehensive sickness insurance cover may be the deciding factor really (if they stayed in Greece for more than 90 days straight). But did the Greek border guards even think to ask? If not (and I think we can safely assume they did not), it's a clear disregard for the rights of the EU national and his family members.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:03 am

sputnik,

You may enjoy http://greekconsulate.org.au/catalog.php?id=217

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:55 am

That is good, up-to-date information! It was written in 2001, omnly 8 years ago... and our Famous Directive dates from 2004.

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Extended travelling in EU for UK citizen + Canadian spouse

Extended travelling in EU for UK citizen + Canadian spouse