FAQ about the Zambrano Judgment (New Info added on INIS)

SSH wrote:Hi Guys,

INIS have updated the website with the zambrano case, they had previously removed the link, they have put back the information again with additional clarification and FAQ's

Below i have copy/pasted 2 of the responses from the FAQS page, It makes no sense to me, I understand the responses but can they actually do this ?

Specially the response to question 3, lets say for example, If someone left Ireland for a job oversees, he/she has lost her job now and cant find another one, which leads to financial difficulties ultimately effecting the well being of the child, if she wishes to avail the zambrano rulling, so she could come and look for a job in Ireland which may improve their circumstances and ultimately add to her's and the child's standard of living, she would not be allowed to come back OR avail of the zambrano ruling?

I don't see any fairness in this ?

how is this decision not depriving the right of an Irish born child citizen ?

It will likely be argued by the Department that the parent voluntarily left this country, unlike the Zambrano family, or a family with a deportation order. That parent clearly was able to move legally to another State, thus the Department will take the attitude that the child would not be genuinely deprived of their EU citizenship as the child could move to another State.

Look at the Domestic Irish Law, the Supreme Court case of Dimbo 2008. Why? Similar problems, the parents left the Country for a while and came back. Because of serious integration, they finally won their case. You can find Dimbo on www.bailii.org

THe Parent will also be accused for not being too bothered about the Child's right to reside in the Irish State, had that parent not lost their job in the other EU state, and may be accused that the parent is trying to use Zambrano as last resort. That the parent should have been with the child and mother, and as they are not EU citizens themselves, don't have the right to gallop across europe.

That is what I believe (looking at arguments from cases in the past) that the Department will try and angle.

SSH wrote: Question 2
My child is an Irish born citizen but, despite being born there, has not resided there at any stage. Does the Zambrano Judgment allow me a right of residence in Ireland?
Response 2
No. The Zambrano Judgment applies to an Irish born citizen child’s country of residence and nationality. If an Irish born citizen child has not been ordinarily resident in Ireland then his/her parent(s) cannot rely on the Zambrano Judgment as a basis for securing a right of residence in Ireland.

Ordinary residence is the answer to Q1 as well. THis also concerns the Irish from the disaprora who can claim citizenship via descent. To stop a wave of non Irish parents coming over (even if the economy was good) It also would take the proverbial piss out of the arguements made in the Zambrano case. You could not say those arguments applied to Question 2.

SSH wrote: Question 3
I am a non-EEA national. I lived in Ireland for some years but left some time ago to return to my country of origin. I left voluntarily and was never the subject of a Deportation Order. I am the parent of an Irish born citizen child. Can I rely on the Zambrano Judgment to allow me to reside in Ireland?
Response 3
No. The Zambrano Judgment does not apply to any person who left Ireland of their own volition. Such persons can, of course, apply for a visitor or study visa to visit Ireland but cannot rely on the Zambrano Judgment as a basis to obtain a right of residence in Ireland.

THere is no evidence of genuine risk. In Zambrano, the couple were from Columbia and they had no hope or chance of returning there. THe Belgians had even acknowledged this problems but did nothing. That was the extent that EU were going to go with breaching their own Treaty. The Treaty does not give EU law the right to go that far into the interpretation of Articles 20 and 21 (the real political belief not really there).

I personally believe there might be a situation where the EU may split cases between long term absence from the State (will fail completely) and short term absence but long term stayed in the State (could succeed)

leonex4t5 wrote:RISEEN
yes... ireland don't need to give residennce to eea citizens, because they can live freely in ireland, and there is a provision for their family members through the directive 2004/38 to reside with them.

Please read what the courts said in the Judgment. THe COurts said Directive 2004/38 does NOT apply in these cases.

leonex4t5 wrote:
For eea minor kids, as their family member(parent/carer) can not be dependant on them, the chen(self sufficient rule) was provided for the family member of an eea child to reside in a host state.

Unlike Zambrano, Chen involved an IRish Citizen trying to live in the UK ie actual exercise of EU Treaty RIghts, (despite the lack of cross borders)

Chen deals with a different situation to Zambrano.

Zambrano deals with the right to family reunification and the child to stay in country of birth. Ie Irish in Ireland, Belgian in Belgium.

leonex4t5 wrote: Before zambrano there was no provision eu children under 18/21 to become eea citizens in their country of nationality, zambrano allows parents/carer reside and work in their child's country of residence and nationality.

so therefore you see provisions have been made for all the union citizens, hence they cant be forced out of the EU.

It did not apply if the one of the parents was a national of the country where the non EU wanted to live in and it was the same country as the child - See Dercei, so it is not ALL.

Tomorrow the High Court will begin to hear the first of hundreds of cases where parents of children born here are seeking to be returned to Ireland with their children. The families of children born here are now legally entitled to return following a decision of the European Court of Justice in March which declared children born in the EU to foreign national parents are entitled to EU citizenship.

Under the European Court's 'Zambrano' judgement, it appears that the State will have to pay the costs of returning the families who were deported even when their children were born here.

Even though the Zambrano judgement was passed down in March the Department of Justice and Garda National Immigration Bureau continued deporting families of children born here.

One of the cases coming to the High Court involves a Mongolian woman and her two children who were born here. She was deported in August and is now seeking to be returned to Ireland.

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riseen wrote:Tomorrow the High Court will begin to hear the first of hundreds of cases where parents of children born here are seeking to be returned to Ireland with their children. The families of children born here are now legally entitled to return following a decision of the European Court of Justice in March which declared children born in the EU to foreign national parents are entitled to EU citizenship.

Under the European Court's 'Zambrano' judgement, it appears that the State will have to pay the costs of returning the families who were deported even when their children were born here.

Even though the Zambrano judgement was passed down in March the Department of Justice and Garda National Immigration Bureau continued deporting families of children born here.

One of the cases coming to the High Court involves a Mongolian woman and her two children who were born here. She was deported in August and is now seeking to be returned to Ireland.

[/b]

For Hearing? Tomorrow?

Not by the look of the Court List

http://www.courts.ie/LegalDiary.NSF/PDA ... inish=8560

Sorry to say but the FAQ on zambrano has been on the INIS website for ages,it's nothing new.Precise (left on a foot of Deportation order/left on their own violation)those two statements are clearly different so i believe the Dept knows what they are doing.My concern is,those who followed the right procedure(visa) and were refused shouldn't be treated less than those who broke immigration law simple

A certain Mr has been asked on two different posts for reference about the Italian/Argentine case he forged on this thread but on the sly,ignored the requests,Now this is the third time.PLEASE GIVE US REFERENCE TO CLEAR THE DOUBT MR KNOW IT ALL.Thanks