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ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-URGENT

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calvtan
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ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-URGENT

Post by calvtan » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:29 pm

Hi immigrationboards member,

It has been 3 yrs since I had the ILR sticker in my passport. I recently renew my passport and the ILR (sticker) - Vignette style is in the old passport.

I was in process of switching job and the HR of the new company bring up this new rule which is very contradicting.

1) Since renewal of my passport - I have always carries both new and old passport (with ILR vignette) and have no problem with Heathrow/airport immigration. My country does not allowed dual citizenship - hence staying at ILR.
https://www.gov.uk/transfer-visa >> which state "You don’t have to transfer your visa - you can carry both your old and new passports when travelling to or from the UK instead."

2) Apparently, recently, on May 16th, 2014, Home office come up with new rule:
"Under the regulations which came into force on 16 May 2014 you may not accept an expired passport unless it is a UK passport or a passport issued by a member state of the European Economic Area. Expired passports issued by any other country are not acceptable, even if they purport to contain older immigration stamps conferring indefinite leave to enter or remain. This is to strengthen protection against the use of forged documents by illegal workers." < Page 7 of document below

Link: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... uments.pdf

Does this mean we are all forced to convert to BRP? But this seem contradicting to point one where ILR holder does not need to transfer visa to new passport.

This is slightly urgent query, and would appreciate if anyone have any ideas?

Thank you in advance...

PaperPusher
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by PaperPusher » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:29 pm

The bit after the section you quote says:
If you have to rely solely on an expired passport or travel document to show you that a person has the right to remain and work in the UK, then you must take particular care when examining photographs and comparing these with the current appearance of the person presenting them. Also, you should note the date of birth on the expired document and satisfy yourself that this is consistent with the current appearance of the holder.
Also, a page near the end explains that vignette may be in an old passport.

You should be fine.

Note: right of abode certificates must be in a valid passport.

calvtan
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by calvtan » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:35 pm

Thanks, Paperpusher...

I saw the the 1st paragraph you mentioned.

On the second one - "Also, a page near the end explains that vignette may be in an old passport." - do you mind giving me the exact page.

I am actually negotiating with the HR on the need to apply for it. if worse - I dread sending any application through post - as passport is held for unknown time, plus to do premium is another 500 pounds - which is not justify...

PaperPusher
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by PaperPusher » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:44 pm

See page 25 with the pictures of different vignettes. You have the vignette with your picture printed right?

Those vignettes ware also stuck to A4 pieces of paper which don't expire!!!

You employer can call the employer helpline on 0300 123 4699 9-5 Mon to Fri for help - they should confirm the documents you have are fine.

calvtan
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by calvtan » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:47 pm

Yes, definitely have the vignette on page 25...on old passport...

Wish it was on blank A4 paper now... I only hear one case where ILR is on A4 - due to lack of passport pages..

Thank you. Much appreciated

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by PaperPusher » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:04 pm

I am sorry. It appears that an ILR/ILE stamp or vignette has to be in a current passport to be acceptable.

The new guidance or really poorly drafted, and there are mistakes. For example on page 2:
4: Documents which are not acceptable for proving a right to work
Q20 From the 16 May 2016, which documents will no longer provide a statutory excuse
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... inalv2.pdf

Someone really needs their head examining at the Home Office.

calvtan
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by calvtan » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:37 pm

i agree... very poorly constructed document

i.e. immigration officer at airport/port will accept both current & old passport (with visa) - what is the purpose of them letting ppl in based on the ILR sticker on old passport but not allowed to work freely??!

Very contradicting indeed...

calvtan
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by calvtan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:14 pm

Just a quick update:

Went to Croydon today, Home Office seriously need to get all the documents read/foolproof before distributing to all employer...

The manager of the day says that it is not compulsory, but I mentioned the contradiction - visa on expired passport NOT VALID (latest May 16th rule)- all they can say it is up to your decision. :shock: < this was my face when i hear the response.

I find this very strange, considering Home Office is the one setting rule, yet they are asking applicant to decide if it is needed to apply. But, they did mentioned that old & new passport is enough to satisfy work eligibility, but my new employer insisnt on following new rule (risk mitigation - following blindly word by word)

Also, on a positive side, I have to admit, they did give the option to withdraw if not needed (minus the GBP 100 fee)....

My case - I went or it, just very poor experience - waste more money on UKBA (UKVI) unecessarily.
I may bring this up with the local MP - but it is too late for my case (I am stuck on the renewal process every 10 years) vs ILR vignette carrier... which just need to carry old passport.

calvtan
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by calvtan » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:41 pm

Another quick update on BRP delivery time:

The NTL transfer from vignette (old passport) was done at Croydon on Monday - everything was done in less than 1 hour.

The BRP surprisingly arrived this morning already - ~ 48hours since I left Croydon...

- BRP states - SETTLEMENT - NO TIME LIMIT instead of my vignette SETTLEMENT - INDEFINITE LEAVE TO REMAIN
If i am not mistaken, initially when BRP was issued for ILR - it states SETTLEMENT - INDEFINITE LEAVE TO REMAIN

Gonna miss the Indefinite - ILR words... but I guess No Time Limit - hopefully de-confused all this immigration policy/HR employer after the fiasco above..

Hope this helps with the BRP delivery statistics.

calvtan
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by calvtan » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:30 pm

Another update:

I have raise this issues through a few channels - hopefully we will get some response somewhere - local MPs, Migrant Right Network & some media (i.e. BBC)

Will update when I hear anything.

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by M4HON » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:19 pm

My employer asks for my passport every year to comply with immigration rules. They have always accepted my expired passport with the ILR stamp in and just copy the relevant page along with the current passport which doesn't have the stamp. Mine was done again in the last 3 weeks without problems. We employ a lot of migrant workers and they are very hot on enforcing UKBA rules, so I believe it is ok.

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by Richard W » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:36 pm

M4HON, your employer didn't need to check you every year. Before May 2014, you had a List A document, which is as good as a British citizen passport, so checks did not need to be repeated. I don't believe there is a requirement to check that a List A document accepted in the past would still be a List A document if the rules were transposed to the past. In your case it is quite possible that the checking of your documents was for show. It is also possible that your employer is convinced that you hold ILR, as Immigration check it whenever you return from abroad, and may also have decided it wasn't worth the cost of replacing you just in case you were an impostor.

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by Richard W » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:22 pm

I have two fresh points to add:

From the answer to Q13 in Frequently asked questions about the illegal working civil penalty scheme:
An Indefinite Leave to Remain stamp in an expired passport is not acceptable because it is insecure, easily forgeable and the person might no longer have their indefinite leave subsequently remaining overseas for more than two years. Instead, you should provide your potential employee or employee an opportunity to obtain current documents. Generally this will be a Biometric Residence Permit.
The regulations make no distinction between stamps, vignettes and residence permits. Moreover, this is consistent with the policy of making the BRP the main evidence of long-term legal residence of non-EEA citizens.

There may be some leverage from Okuoimose v City Facilities Management (UK) Ltd. A Nigerian married to a Spaniard was sacked for being an illegal worker because she did not have a residence card, and won her case for unfair dismissal. (Her right to work depended on having a subsisting marriage to a husband here under his EEA treaty rights, of which a residence card is merely evidence.) However, a weakness is that in this case, a non-illegal worker was dismissed for being an illegal worker, rather than for not providing her employer with a statutory excuse against a penalty for employing an illegal worker. The case might provide good leverage for someone being transferred under TUPE, but might be more difficult to turn into a discrimination case.

One desperate measure has occurred to me. The Royal Opera House requires that its contractors indemnify it against a civil penalty for employing an illegal worker. Presumably the worry is that a seeming contractor might be found to be an employee. There may well be a problem with guaranteeing an indemnity - I've pondered securing one on our house. An ILR sticker in an old passport plus evidence that ILR has not been lost should reassure the employer about the prospect of any criminal charges.

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by summer_orange » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:32 pm

Hi,

I have recently come to know about this rule and am very concerned as I hold my ILR in my expired passport and not in possession of BRP.
I have been trying to make sense of this whole new rule ( :S ) and I would like to ask a few questions and it would be great if you could share your views/opinions/information.

1) Does one need to provide evidence even if one is already working? Or is this only applicable when one is seeking a new employment?

2) In the FAQ PDF, in the section about Immigration Control, page 12, there is this clause;

"Q18 Who is not subject to UK immigration control?

A.The following categories of individuals are not subject to UK immigration control. You may therefore employ them without restriction:

* British citizens;
* Commonwealth citizens and citizens of the UK and Colonies with the right of abode in the UK;
* Nationals from the Common Travel Area (Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands);
* Nationals from European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland (except for Croatian nationals (until 30 June 2017); and
* Non EEA Family members of nationals from EEA countries and Switzerland, if the EEA national is lawfully residing in the UK"

What happens if you are a family of a UK national? Does it mean that you are exempt from the immigration control, therefore not restricted to work also?
So if an individual is an ILR holder on an expired passport without BRP and a member of a family (wife/children/husband) of a British citizen (which is me, essentially), do you still need to provide the evidence of eligibility to work?
Or EEA nationals do not include British? If so, a family member of a Spanish national is allowed to work but not if you are a family member of a British national?

Can anyone share any information?

Thanks and regards.

vinny
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by vinny » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:51 am

Richard W is correct. There's no requirement to recheck documents from List A, as amended.
Step 1: Acceptable documents wrote:List A contains the range of documents which you may accept for a person who has a permanent right to work in the UK. If you conduct the right to work checks correctly before employment begins, you will establish a continuous statutory excuse for the duration of that person’s employment with you. You do not have to conduct any further checks on this individual.
6. When do you conduct checks? wrote:If a person provides you with acceptable documents from List A at Annex A there is no restriction on their right to work in the UK, so you establish a continuous statutory excuse for the duration of the person’s employment with you. You are not required to carry out any further checks on this person.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

summer_orange
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by summer_orange » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:06 am

Hi Vinny,

Thanks for the reply.

I wondered if the recurring check does not have to occur if it has been checked since the new rule has been in force, but I am glad this isn't the case.

As for the second question, I would still like to know in case I change my job.
Can anyone shed some light on please?

Thanks and regards.

jules276
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by jules276 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:25 am

my partner, Canadian, has ILR in his passport however his current passport expired a while back

had not realised until he came to take on a new job - HR were Ok with the expired passport and the ILR however as he now wants to renew his passport what steps would we need to ensure that he still has ILR or its new equivalent

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by BHAVNAKHER » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:37 am

Hi ,

Just adding to the above discussion, I felt a need to clarify that the new norm of ILR to be on current passport from May 25th is applicable for joiners after that. Henceforth any new employee needs to have ILR on current passport or renewed one which would be BRP in most cases. However for all employees who joined before 25th May are okay to be employed on expired passport with ILR stamp.

Hope that helps !!

Cheers
Bhavs
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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by ht6448 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:53 am

Hi Calvtan, any response from your question to mp/bbc? I'm now caught with this situation - ILR on expired passport. Over zealous HR admin who won't accept I'm bona fide ILR holder with passport stamps and employment history to prove I haven't lost it. Happy to do the BRP but don't want to pay for premium and waste a day at the home office. Still trying to convince them but looks like I'll have to make a trip to home office to contribute to their coffer. If there's any official reply from other channels that might help me to avoid it.

Thanks. HT

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Re: ILR / Work Latest ruling - for Vignette (sticker) ILR-UR

Post by Richard W » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:39 pm

jules276 wrote:my partner, Canadian, has ILR in his passport however his current passport expired a while back

... he now wants to renew his passport what steps would we need to ensure that he still has ILR or its new equivalent
No special action is required. He should carry both passports when he returns. The only problem would be the gap between the old passport expiring and the new one. The IO could suspect he had been granted limited leave on an intervening passport. However, the IO did not check my wife's intervening passports when she left the UK on a blank Thai passport and returned on it,

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