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Long residence stats?

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binnacle
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Long residence stats?

Post by binnacle » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:48 pm

Regarding the long residence concession - or whatever it is now knows as, does anyone have any statistics of how many applications are granted and how many are refused for the combined lawful/unlawful residence category?

I'm interested in the probability ratio of a person with 12.5 years of residence (4.5 of which was legal, and the last 8 as an overstayer) being removed. Do factors such as income (over £200k/year for the last four years, private health insurance for last 7 years with no prior NHS usage whatsover), a senior consultancy job in a Fortune 100 firm and a demonstrably very comfortable lifestyle in a well-off area of the South East count for something here? I also realise a further 1.5 years is not particularly daunting in most cases, but said person's career is on an upward trajectory currently and postponing intenational mobility is hampering career prospects

NOTE: No family ties; was cohabiting with UK-born partner for over 4 years, but that is no longer the case.

Thanks for your help

B

Chess
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Post by Chess » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:01 pm

B,

You gotta play it safe and wait for the 14 years. Contacting HO before your 14 years have elapsed will stop the Clock!!!

Make sure there is sufficient evidence to prove stay over the 14 years
Where there is a will there is a way.

kawasaki1
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Post by kawasaki1 » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:15 pm

With such a long list of riches, could you not go via the investor route? 8)

I doubt applying for long concession is a good idea right now. HO will definately not show mercy just because you live in the South East and earn lots of money (unless you can show them you could invest in the country).

And interesting to know that there are Fortune 100 companies that hire people illegaly - surely a big reputation killer if found out? ;)

binnacle
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Post by binnacle » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:22 pm

Chess,

Thank you for your response. However, just to clarify, do the rules not say that you may apply if you have a combination of lawful & unlawful residence for between 10 & 14 years? I realise, this then comes under the "caseworker's discretion", but is that not the case for even beyond 14 years?

So, I'm trying to guage probability of refusal.

Has anyone in a highly paid, senior professional job actually been in such a situation here? Perhaps not eh? This chap has written references from VP/Senior Directors at Fortune 100 firms and despertaely wants to take the opportunity that he has been given to lead major initiatives globally.

It is hard to believe that such people will actually be incarcerated. But I realise it is possible hence the request for some raw data to assess chances

Thank you

B

Chess
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Post by Chess » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:27 pm

After 14 years - yes more or less guarranteed if you can prove the stay.

10 to 14 yrs would do if you have extremely compassionate circumstances....

Even if you were a specialist brain surgeon or astronaut and applied for the concession before the 14 years elapsed - you would be playing fire!!!
Where there is a will there is a way.

binnacle
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Post by binnacle » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:56 pm

OK, it looks like tthe consensus here is and probably will continue to be "Don't be daft, wait for the 14 years to elapse..". Fine, point appreciated and taken.

However, and as mentioned before, given the desperate nature of the situation (I realise some people might think career progression is but a minor thing in such a situation!), if advice was taken from good immigration law firm(s), and - hypothetically speaking, since no law firm has been contacted yet - they saw some merity and were to recommend putting in an application, would you all still think that it would be a daft thing to do?

On that point, are there any recommendations for excellent law firms specialising in this are of law? Has anyone used a good firm?

Thanks

B

John
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Post by John » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:12 am

Binnacle asked :-
would you all still think that it would be a daft thing to do?
Yes! But of course by then you will have received some legal advice, but as said already in this thread .... you would be playing with fire!

The problem with "caseworker's discretion" is that ... what if the discretion is not exercised in your favour? Where exactly would that leave you?
John

davidm
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Re: Long residence stats?

Post by davidm » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:30 pm

binnacle wrote: I'm interested in the probability ratio of a person with 12.5 years of residence (4.5 of which was legal, and the last 8 as an overstayer) being removed. Do factors such as income (over £200k/year for the last four years, private health insurance for last 7 years with no prior NHS usage whatsover), a senior consultancy job in a Fortune 100 firm and a demonstrably very comfortable lifestyle in a well-off area of the South East count for something here? I also realise a further 1.5 years is not particularly daunting in most cases, but said person's career is on an upward trajectory currently and postponing intenational mobility is hampering career prospects
B
Out of curiosity- how would the HR department of a Fortune 100 company employ somebody without verifying that the employee is entitled to work in the UK (assuming that you are employed by the firm, not consulting for them as a paid consultant?)

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:24 am

Chess wrote:Contacting HO before your 14 years have elapsed will stop the Clock!!!
You'd better be sure you know what you are saying before you say. If not sure - read the official documents before you post to this forum.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en ... LRCTXT.pdf

-------------
Continuity of residence should be considered as being broken if the applicant:
�� was removed or deported from the United Kingdom;
�� at the time of his departure there is evidence to indicate that he had no intention of returning or there was an absence of strong ties to the United Kingdom; or
�� a lengthy absence which can be considered to have severed ties with the United Kingdom.

------------

Also:

------------

Where a person has been served with a notice of intention to deport account should be taken of the decision in the case of Ofori. This judgement held that the Secretary of State was entitled to conclude that the extra period of residence gained by the appellant while pursuing his appeal should not count towards the 14 years continuous residence of any legality required under the LRC.

------------

It means that only if deportation order was served on person AND they were appealing - THEN this appeal pursuing period will be excluded from the period required for LRC.

Instructions say absolutely nothing about REMOVAL.

Contacting the IND with an enquiry DOES NOT MEAN on any account that any action will be taken against the individual if he is in violation of the Rules.

Jeff Albright
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Re: Long residence stats?

Post by Jeff Albright » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:34 am

davidm wrote: Out of curiosity- how would the HR department of a Fortune 100 company employ somebody without verifying that the employee is entitled to work in the UK (assuming that you are employed by the firm, not consulting for them as a paid consultant?)
Very simple. I am not sure how it is now after May 2004 but what was before - no one had been asking for any proof whatsoever. If you had worked here before, especially for a long time, it is natural (at least how it used to be before 2004) to assume that you have the right to work here - just had over your P45, fill in the form with NI number. In particular, after 10 years of continued work and life in the UK it is not always that easy to distinguish between someone being British or someone who came from overseas.

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Re: Long residence stats?

Post by Chess » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:43 am

Jeff Albright wrote:
davidm wrote: Out of curiosity- how would the HR department of a Fortune 100 company employ somebody without verifying that the employee is entitled to work in the UK (assuming that you are employed by the firm, not consulting for them as a paid consultant?)
Very simple. I am not sure how it is now after May 2004 but what was before - no one had been asking for any proof whatsoever. If you had worked here before, especially for a long time, it is natural (at least how it used to be before 2004) to assume that you have the right to work here - just had over your P45, fill in the form with NI number. In particular, after 10 years of continued work and life in the UK it is not always that easy to distinguish between someone being British or someone who came from overseas.

Jeff,

If I recall correctly, your situation is somehow similar to that describe by Binacle.

However, I would NOT recommend that the HO is contacted before the 14 years have elapsed as they may commence Adminstrative Removal procedures which would stop the 14 Year Clock.

The choice is yours - However, contact HO at your own Peril.

Jeff - can you please update us on your situation
Where there is a will there is a way.

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:29 pm

Anyone is entitled to enquire with IND about status, procedures, rules etc.. Anyone is entitled to complain, too. What do you want to tell me - an intelligence team sitting there are just waiting for calls from illegals to start tracking them? That's is nonsense and has absolutely no logical or factual basis.
Do you think they will just launch an attack on you just because you have approached them with an inquiry or sent them an application? The system does not work like this and cannot work like this.

Enforcement is one thing, which is dealt with by LEOs by records passed to them from the IND. Case processing centre (Lunar House) is another thing. There is a procedure in place. If you overstayed, you data is sent to the enforcement squads, so anyone overstaying is already in their enforcement database. If they are not chasing you, means that they either do not have your details (address etc) or something went wrong at some point and the details are inconsistent. If you call Lunar House you are given information that is on a computer - yes, overstayed, enforcement action initiated or not, etc. End of call - end of story.

I made several inquiries with IND via my MP 3 years ago when they told me according to the records I was classed as an overstayer, even though in fact I never overstayed.

Then my solicitors sent a letter to them asking to investigate what happened to my documents and sort their records out. Nothing happened. 3 years have passed - absolutely nothing.

So I am planning a major attack later this year once I have completed my degree. Will see what happens.

In my case I have nothing to be afraid of, I have not committed any offence under the Immigration Act. Perhaps, the author of this message has knowingly done so. And it is understandable after spending so many years that it is a worry for them.

14 year period will be broken only if the person is removed or awaiting appeal decision following the rejection of an application. Yes it would be unwise to send any application now, as it may stop the clock but there is nothing wrong to enquire with IND about things.

However, having said that the author may find they would qualify for HSMP. Even if HSMP is approved, the LTR may be rejected but there are lots of other things in favour - so many years spent, good earnings, profession, ties in the UK, good character, no criminal records (I hope) and it is possible that judicial review be allowed.

My personal view to this situation is just to wait another couple of years and that's the end of it.

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Post by Chess » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:25 pm

Jeff, I do agree the best form of action is to sit and wait ( Binnacle's case).


Also, thanx for sharing your story again. Unfortunately there are several hundreds of thousands of people in your situtaion (either knowingly or unknowingly)...

...I hope your situation gets resoled soon - Keep us updated and Good Luck


Chess

PS. What is the proposed new strategy?
Where there is a will there is a way.

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:37 pm

Chess wrote: Also, thanx for sharing your story again.
No problem. Thanks for your comments, too.
Chess wrote: Unfortunately there are several hundreds of thousands of people in your situtaion (either knowingly or unknowingly)...
Yes that's true. And the worst thing is that the system does not allow to put these things right, there are simply no legal ways to explore. And the Ministers must be so stupid for not realising this and burdening themselves up with lots of work that could be avoided.
Chess wrote: ...I hope your situation gets resoled soon - Keep us updated and Good Luck
Thanks again but it may never be resolved if no new rules are introduced. Will have to wait 14 years like Binnacle.
Chess wrote: PS. What is the proposed new strategy?
Sorry did not get you. What do you mean by "new strategy" and for what?
Thanks

Chess
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Post by Chess » Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:54 pm

Jeff,

You dont have to wait for 14 years. Here is a FREE strategy for you.

Get a job in the UK for which a Work Permit can be applied for/issued. Let your potential employer know that for legal reasons, your permit has got to be applied for whilst you are overseas.

Get a new Passport and Fly out.

The address on the permit application should be your overseas address. Once you get a permit then the rest will be history

If succesful, the EC cannot deny you entrey as you will be coming in a category leading to settlement

All the above is LEGAL
Where there is a will there is a way.

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:34 pm

Chess,

Thanks.
Yes I know all this and the same applies to HSMP.
There is one "no" - my name is in the enforcement database already and will stay there indefinitely. My immigration history has been marked and they will pick on it immediately at in the Embassy (they even don't have to because the application form will tell everything).

The question is: who is that moron who has marked my immigration history without me committing any offence? Those who did it must respond before I make any move out of here. Once all those adverse records have been removed from my file - then it is fair enough, I will go and reapply from overseas, no problem with that.

Whenever they say "there is no objection for you to return to the UK after an administrative removal or voluntary departure", it is just an excuse to boot people out; in fact there is and there is no way of simple coming back. When you are overseas you do not have British legal rights, you are under full control of the Embassy and they do whatever they want with you. If they don't like you they will find the reason to refuse or delay for as long as they want and you cannot prove anything. I don't argue that it may still be possible to return but it may take months if not years to sort out. By that time any employer will have withdrawn their offer. So it is not known what will actually turn out to be faster - to wait 14 years here or to fight from there.

So is this the kind of risk that is worth taking, what do you think?

Chess
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Post by Chess » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:52 pm

Jeff


I have got to the crux of the matter. Just stay put and 'SERVE' your time. The 14 years will lapse before you know...


Research (dont remember where i read it) has shown that 'Overstayers' overcome these burdens by getting on with their lives and having something else to focus on, like studying , marrying, having children and working, being active at Church etc. Holidaying in Scotland, Blackpool, Brighton, Scarborough etc..

Family visits from abroad etc...It has been done before and the time will pass before you know...
Where there is a will there is a way.

Kayalami
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Post by Kayalami » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:43 am

Jeff,

I appreciate that you and I never started off on the right footing on this forum but I do honestly sympathise with your predicament as per your first posting. I am somewhat puzzled as to what you intentions are/ what you want the outcome to be given the following facts:

1. You entry into the UK was on a 1 yr 'probationary' visa on the basis of marriage to a British Citizen.

2. The marriage broke down 2 months into this period and subsequently various allegations arose from your spouse on both civil and immigration grounds.

3. You obtained legal advise/engaged a lawyer that was below standard and did your cause more harm than good. It appears that the last

4. You were allowed to remain in the UK for the reminder of the 1 year and then applied to remain in the UK - on what basis was this? ILR on grounds of marriage was moot given the sponsor did not support the application regardless of the other legal issues as sad as they are i.e. as far as the Home Office is concerned your ex wife didn't want to know you and that's your problem not theirs. From 3 it is possible that your lawyer never submited anything at all and is the one who has your passport and other documents. It could be that is why the Home Office had you as an overstayer.

My questions are:

1. You obviously want to clear your name in regards to your ex-spouses allegations - has this been resolved?

2. On what grounds do you expect the Home Office to grant you leave to remain?

3. How have you maintained and accomodated yourself for the last 6 years? (Appreciate this is personal so no need to answer if you don't want).

4. How is your education funded? (ditto brackets above)

5. What makes you believe that an Entry Clearance Officer at an overseas British Diploamtic Post can refuse to grant you leave to enter if you meet all the requirements of the immigration rules exluding that of subjectivity in regards to leaving the UK prior to the expiry of a visa? By default this subjectivity is restricted to more or less applications NOT in a category leading to settlement. Pursuant to this any application you make to return to the UK in a category that does not lead to settlement will IMHO fall for refusal.

6. In what capacity is the 14 yr rule in anyway in your favour given that you have 8 years to go - are you willing to have your status on hold for that long just to prove a point to the Home Office?

Feel free to pm if you prefer.

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:37 am

Chess,

Appreciate your thoughts.

Chess wrote: Just stay put and 'SERVE' your time. The 14 years will lapse before you know...
Oh yes. :wink: Looks like I have to do that. I have "served" 7, so there isn't much left to go...
Chess wrote: ... having something else to focus on, like studying , marrying, having children and working, being active at Church etc. Holidaying in Scotland, Blackpool, Brighton, Scarborough etc..
That's the point that I am not an overstayer. There was no overstay at all and there is absolutely no legal basis to treat me like one. Although I do exactly all these things (apart from Church, sorry) as you say but it cannot just last like this for good. I even have offers from universities abroad for research positions now (as a Ph.D. graduate) but I cannot make a move. For example, I get enough points to migrate to AU as a Skilled Migrant but when I start applying my "overstayer"'s records in the UK will come up and I may be denied my visa. You see how important it is to clear my name and get rid of all those records? I am not even that much concerned of continuing to live in the UK but the first and foremost - to justify my innocence.
Chess wrote: Family visits from abroad etc...
Did not work out. This is how I became aware that I was classed as an overstayer. My mother went to the Embassy some years ago and applied for a visa to come and see me. She did not use me as a sponsor but they immediately brought up their records on my name and rejected her application.

There will be major enquiries with the IND later this year and I will keep the forum updated on the progress.

Thank you again for overwhelming interest to my situation and support.

binnacle
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Post by binnacle » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:03 am

All,

Thanks for some of the comments here.

- In terms of the 14-year period, assuming that is successfully completed, presumably, the person can apply the very next day after the period is completed? (In response to a point mentioned earlier, the person has no criminal record - I am assuming that 6 points on your full UK driving license, held for over 12 years, for speeding on two separate occasions do not count against you - continues, so far, to be in a lucrative job, etc).

- Important question: Since person owns no property in the UK, will the purchase of a property in the UK help person's case? If so, will that be a significant gain? Also, will it need to meet a certain threshold - i.e. does it have to be worth say £500k or more, for example? Can it be rented out or does said person have to reside in it?

- How long does the process to apply for and obtain "residency" generally take, assuming you have your passport(s) which show continuous stay and other supporting evidence like taxes paid and other bits of info ( like voter registration, council tax paid, utility bill, etc)?

- Are the records of the person as an "overstayer" permanently held in the HO database? Are they also held elsewhere? like the police, etc? Will this have an affect on subsequent naturalisation applications?

- I've asked this before - does anyone recommend (either publicly or privately) (a) particular law firm(s) who are known to be able to provide excellent advise (cost immaterial)?

Thank you

B

Chess
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Post by Chess » Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:56 am

B,

Yes you can apply the next day after 14 years. Although it might be between 3months to a Year before you get your approval as HO has to investigate to make sure that you have 'served' your time.

It does not matter whether you have property in the UK or not. But, it is generally good to have property in the UK (no price limit really).

No need to worry about traffic offences unless they lead to imprisonment.


No records are held about Overstayers unless you came to the attention of HO in one way or another after expiry of your visa.

Previous overstaying should not affect naturalisatiuon unless there are other major issues.


No need to use a lwayer (as this is a DIY area) so long as you can prove your stay over the 14 years. Try our hosts (although I am not advocating for their service!)
Where there is a will there is a way.

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:53 pm

Chess has answered most of your questions.

Just to add a few bits and pieces.

The info on overstayers or illegal entrants is NOT kept on police records, not kept on Police National Computer (at least up until today of course). Therefore it is unlikely to get exposed if you are stopped by police during ruitine checks. However, any criminal offence, including Road Traffic Act offences (no tax disc, insurance, MOT) will usually reveal your status. Getting arrested and being taken to Police Station is usually a high risk. Therefore, it is advisable to abide by all the rules and laws impeccably.
The records are usually kept in enforcement databases used by the IS and shared throughout the embassies abroad ("visa warning lists").
But IMHO they are not kept there forever, possibly not longer than 5-6 years.

I have heard, however, if a person is under Deportation proceedings the records are shared with Police. Someone like "missing deportee" may be on police records. I have read a record in Immigration Appeal Tribunal database when someone was issued with Deportation Order and went into hiding for many years. The records were circulated between different constabularies in the country.

No lawyer is needed. Just fill in the SET(O) form, append all the evidence required and send it off to Cannock.

Best of luck

vin123
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Post by vin123 » Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:30 pm

Out of curiosity- how would the HR department of a Fortune 100 company employ somebody without verifying that the employee is entitled to work in the UK (assuming that you are employed by the firm, not consulting for them as a paid consultant?)
I don’t think this can easily happen now a days. Even if you are contracting, your agency will make sure that you are legally entitled to sign a contract without a sponsorship.

I remember sometime in 2002, companies were instructed by govt (home office sending an instruction pack and leaflet) to follow strict guidelines while offering employment to a person. They make it applicable even if the candidate claims to be a British citizen. Most of the companies, including employment agencies and recruitment consultants follow the same route now.

From the length of his stay mentioned in the post, It appears that this person has overstayed and got away during the 'quite times'. He would have made solid corporate contacts over this period so it is very unlikely for anyone to have doubts over him, because of the long running relationship he is maintaining.

But if the story is true, it sounds amazing that this guy(darling of the corporate bourses) is making £200K a year in country without having to make a single business travel abroad !?
  
 

Jeff Albright
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Post by Jeff Albright » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:25 pm

vin123 wrote: I remember sometime in 2002, companies were instructed by govt (home office sending an instruction pack and leaflet) to follow strict guidelines while offering employment to a person. They make it applicable even if the candidate claims to be a British citizen. Most of the companies, including employment agencies and recruitment consultants follow the same route now.
Are you sure it was in 2002? I thought Browne brought this in last year in May.
In 2002 I was changing 2 jobs and I got them without any checks of my immigration status. One of them was for a professional post in a large and reputable company. Or maybe I was just lucky who knows?

And yes it is amazing that person being in such a capacity has managed to establish him(her)self in such an excellent career. This is really applauding. Had it been for no red tape and the system was more humane, for such achievements and contribution to the society this person would have been given an unconditional permanent leave to remain immediately.

I really tend to believe that this country is absolutely nothing without immigrants. Despite making their life so difficult and so mean at times, despite this evil deed immigration system, some really heroic and outstanding people out there who make their way regardless and come out as winners.

binnacle
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Post by binnacle » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:38 am

chess & Jeff,

Thank you for your comments. Six months to one year for this process beyond the 14 years seems to be an awfully long time. But such are the processess and procedures I suppose.


vin123 & Jeff,

I am not quite sure what said person would gain by making up a figure for total income? Whom is the person trying to impress here? Of course, I'm not here to provide individuals proof or otherwise regarding this matter on any public forum. However, the purpose of the quoted actual income level (amongst other things) which can be proven/shown to relevant authorities in a pretty straight-forward manner, was to determine if there was (is) a possibility to "regularise" status given the very significant contribution in taxes and in intellectual capacity that the person makes to the UK economy.

Odd as it may seem, foreign travel is not quite required for very many high-powered roles - especially if one keeps their head down and gets on with delivering good productivity, but of course, at one stage or another it becomes an obstacle to career progression, which is exactly where said person appears to be. Hence the initial question(s) which began this thread.

So, thank you for your interest and comments

B

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