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MOTHER FAMILY VISIT VISA REFUSED..... HELP WITH APPEAL PLZZZ

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doc_S
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MOTHER FAMILY VISIT VISA REFUSED..... HELP WITH APPEAL PLZZZ

Post by doc_S » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:25 pm

Background:

I am on Tier 1 General (HSMP earlier) in UK with my wife and two kids. My mother is a widow and lives all by herself back home in pak. My two sistes are married and live in different cities away from my mother. We applied for her visitor visa twice in 2006/07, which were refused on the grounds that she will never return as I am the only son and i'm in UK etc etc. When refused third time, we appealed and it was successful without hearing. (No change in circumstances --- she was still living alone, doesn't work/housewife, not financially dependan on me) So finally she got visitor visa for 6 months and visited us in Aug 2008 - Jan 2009. When she got back, we applied for visitor visa for 2 years multiple entry after few months. As my wife was expecting, we did mention that we want our mother to be here during delivery days. She was not refused, but was only granted 6 months visa again. (though they charged for full 2 years fee). So she visited us again in June 2009 - Nov 2009.

So in short, after 2 refusals and one appeal, she started getting visitor visas and has successfully visted UK twice and left before the expiry of her visa.

Current Application:

This time we made another application for a 2 years multiple entry family visitor visa by the end of April 2010. She just collected her application back today. And to our shock, they have refused visa this time again. Considering that she had visited twice and followed immigration rules, we were expecting a positive outcome.

The reasons for refusal:

1. As we mentioned in our sponsor letter and application that me and my wife will fully support, accomodate and finance her trip, the ECO was not satisfied with our claims and that we would actually do so. (Evidence we submitted: my payslips for 6 months, wife payslips for sux months, bank statements of our current and saving accounts for both of us separately. All in all there were sufficient savings, combined in the access of 20K plus evidence of regualr income of around 68-70K per anum) She got visa on similar documents and grounds last time !

2. No evidence to show the available accomodation. (Ok I did attach a proof of address as utility bills but didn't provide tenancy agreement or detail of the accomodation --- however, that how I applied last two times as well when she got visa.)

3. This was a shocker ..... ECO mentioned that as you and your sponsor claim that they need help with child care for their 6 months old, this constitutes as an employment whether paid or unpaid. (Well this was a real surprise as we had no idea about such a situation. We mentioned it as a reason thinking that it would make sense that a grandmother can spend time with her grandchildern and at the same time lend heand in their care as she would normally do back home. We had no idea that this could be seen as an employment. After searching through this forum, I now realised that it was a GROSS mistake to mention that my wife has to back to full-time work after her maternity leave and we would like a close family member like my mother to be be here for few months to visit us and help with childcare)

Solutions/Questions:

1. For reason 1, I guess either the ECO overlooked statements and payslips or he just has no clue how much should be shown as satisfactory funds. Plus, we claimed that we would fully support her throughout the trip and the proof is that we did same for the last two trips as well. Then how can ECO claim that he is not sure that we would support her in this trip?

2. For accomodation, I can submit a tenancy agreement and council tax payslips as a proof. (We live is a 2 bedroom flat, with a separate lounge and open plan Spam and an additional small room/study. We are 2 adults and a 5 year old and a 6 months old. --- Is accomodation enough if my mother comes here, in the eye of an immigration officer. She came and stayed at the same place on last two visits but they never asked for any details earlier)

3. Now for the hard part. This childcare/employment claim ---- how can we counter it in an appeal? Honestly speaking, we did not have this in our wildest dreams that this childcare help by a grandparent would be considered as en employment. We have hit ourself in the foot by mentioning this as a main reason for her this visit. But now, how to counter this? Should I say that we did not mean that she would be full-time carer and we might have caused confusion. We meant that she would help us and if we have a child minder at home, she can oversee etc. Or is it better to admit that we were unaware of such immigration restriction and apologise but then how to convince that now if she is granted visa that she will not be doing any child care.

I need to submit appeal soon and running out of options/ideas wht to do. Wish I had founf this forum earlier and then would not have done such a gross mistake of mentioning childcare as a reason.

Is it better in these circumstances to appeal or to re-apply?

My tenancy agreement only says, two bedroom flat where in-fact there is a small room as a study which is as good as a single room (slightly smaller). If two bedroom flat is not enough for all of us, then how can I show that we have three rooms etc ? Can I measure and give details of all rooms and add pictures or does it have to be an official survery report? In that case by whom? I have only few days, will a letting agen do it, council or any private firm?

Lastly, is it better to appeal at BHC where she applied or better if I submit an appeal here in UK to AIT? With the appeal, do we have to submit of copies of ALL the documents we already submitted with original application as well ??? Or we just need to submit additional documents only to support grounds of appeal? And do we only submit photocopies for these additional documents or the originals?

I would appreciate all your help in this regard and awaiting your expert opinions. Thank you very much in advance again.

djb123
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Post by djb123 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:01 pm

Personally I reckon reasons 1 and 2 are only sub-reasons for the refusal, and wouldn't have caused the ECO to reject your mother's application on their own - the ECO mentioned them just to strengthen his case for the refusal.

Not really sure what you can do, as very difficult to prove that your mother won't be childminding whilst you are at work. Stating that now you understand the rules you didn't mean what you said is unlikely to be believed. You say about overseeing a childminder, but surely that is work as well?

One other thing, did you realise that even with a 2 year visa, she really should only stay 6 months in any 12 month period? So when she is staying for 6 months at a time, a 2 year visa is actually more expensive than two 6 month visas.

doc_S
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Post by doc_S » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:14 pm

djb123 wrote: One other thing, did you realise that even with a 2 year visa, she really should only stay 6 months in any 12 month period? So when she is staying for 6 months at a time, a 2 year visa is actually more expensive than two 6 month visas.
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I do know that she could stay for max of 6 months per year even with 2 years multiple entry. However, as she already had two 6 months visas, I tried for 2 years so that we don't have to go through the hassell for sometime.

What is the solution now for this childminding thing? Never thought it would be this harsh. If now we show that child has got a place in nursery, will it be sufficient? I want to know how can we appeal successfully or re-apply but without compromising the future applications? :roll:

djb123
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Post by djb123 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:14 am

doc_S wrote:
djb123 wrote: One other thing, did you realise that even with a 2 year visa, she really should only stay 6 months in any 12 month period? So when she is staying for 6 months at a time, a 2 year visa is actually more expensive than two 6 month visas.
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I do know that she could stay for max of 6 months per year even with 2 years multiple entry. However, as she already had two 6 months visas, I tried for 2 years so that we don't have to go through the hassell for sometime.

What is the solution now for this childminding thing? Never thought it would be this harsh. If now we show that child has got a place in nursery, will it be sufficient? I want to know how can we appeal successfully or re-apply but without compromising the future applications? :roll:
With childminding the rules/guidance are quite clear, it's ok for a relative on a visit visa to help out if for example one of the parents is in hospital, but not ok if it's so the parents can work or study.

Your problem is that they know you can always cancel the place at the nursery. So it's ultimately going to be down to whether they trust you or not as I don't think you can prove that she won't be childminding. So if you are both at work and your children are being looked after, what will your mother now be doing during the day if she can't childmind as that is what she was originally going to do? If you can provide a convincing answer to that then maybe that will help.

doc_S
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Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:18 pm

Post by doc_S » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:24 am

This is the regret, we had absolute no idea on the guidance on childcare and wish I had contacted this forum b4 making an application. I am desperate to get my mother here as I am the only son and as she is not financially dependant on me and is under 65, visitor visa was only option which was working fine for the last two years until we dug a hole for ourself with childacre claim.

I am desperate for a sincere advice. What are my options now? Appeal ... but with what excuse? Re-apply later ... when? and even then how to defend this refusal at later stage? Can a solicitor help with this appeal?

What if we employ a childminder and give her a contract for six months with no option from us as an employer to end it before six months (to make sure that child minder will be employed for six months atleast) .... would it show that my mother will not be childminding?

Any other ideas/advice please???? Days are passing by and we need to lodge an appeal. (Is it best to lodge an appeal direct to AIT in UK? or at BHC in pak? It would be easire for me to send an appeal within UK with more evidence).

When is it considered 28 days deadline for an appeal ? from the date ECO made decision (on the form), or when the actual application is collected by the applicant. (as decision was made on 19th May, but my mother collected application on 2nd June .... they never contacted her to collect application, as promised, rather she just went there because I check on internet that it is ready for collection.)

Secondly, when is it considered that appeal has been lodged within time? If we post it before 28th day (but they recive it later) or do they have to receive it before 28th day? What if we post by 26/27th day and it is delivered by 28th day, However, if they don't open it much later, does it count as in-time or delayed? Very confused ....

doc_S
Junior Member
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Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:18 pm

Exact refusal notice:

Post by doc_S » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:58 am

1. • On your application form you have stated that you wish to visit your son and daughter-inlaw, and that they will assist with your travel
costs, support and accommodation. However you have presented no satisfactory evidence from them to show that they are able to do so, nor have you provided satisfactory evidence to demonstrate tnat you are able to cover all of your costs from your own resources. You have failed to submit any evidence from your sponsor to satisfy me that their
accommodation is spacious enough to accommodate you. I am not satisfied that you will maintain and accommodate yourself and any dependants adequately out- of the resources available to you without recourse to public funds or taking employment or will, with any
dependants, be maintained and accommodated adequately by relatives or friends. Finally I am not satisfied that you can meet the cost of the return or onward journey. 41(vi)(vii)

(Though as mentioned above, we submitted payslips, bank statements for me and my wife. My mother also submitted her bank statements with savings and monthly income/interest. Plus I submitted prood of address. Only thing missing was detail of accomodation)

2. • You have stated at part 9.1 of the visa application form "As the 6 month old child has frequently taken ill, they want him to be looked after by a relative until he is grown up a bit more (at least 1year old) before trying to get him into nursery." And further on, "They have
requested me if I can visit them in UK and help them with childcare, which I have accepted." This is'further confirmed in the two letters submitted by your sponsors in support of your application. I accept that there are policy provisions for the short term care of relatives. However what you propose to do constitutes employment, either paid or unpaid.
This is not permitted for visitors to the UK. I have taken into account the reason for your proposed travel now. However I am not satisfied that this alone should outweigh my other concerns as indicated above. I am not therefore satisfied that you do not intend to take employment in the UK, nor that you are genuinely seeking entry 'as a visitor for a limited
period as stated by you not exceeding 6 months in the UK. Paragraph 41 (iii) and (i)

3• You have provided no satisfactory evidence of your personal and financial circumstances. As a result I am not satisfied your circumstances are as you have indicated, nor on your intentions in wishing to travel to the UK now. I am not therefore satisfied that you are
genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by you, not exceeding 6 months, nor am I satisfied that you intend to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by you. 41 (i)(ii)

____________________________________________________________

(We did provide all her bank staments, income source, assets details. She has visited twice before and stuck to restrictions and went back in time. So how can he claim she wouldn't do it again?)

Any advice on grounds of appeal especially with point 2???

Thanks[/img]

HRY2005
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Location: UK

Post by HRY2005 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:16 pm

In my opinion, it will be very hard for the ECO to believe you if you change the reasons for your mum's travel to the UK at this time. It look really hard for you to win on appeal as well (but nothing is impossible). If I'm in your shoe, I 'll wait for a bit like 6months and apply for another visit visa for a different reason (like normal visit to spend time with her grandchildren and the whole famiy(now that I have learnt my lesson). if you push it too much now, might look like you are desperate to get your mum in to look after your kids (unpaid employment like they've said)

This is just my opinion and I think its the best option so that future chances of your mum getting a visa would not be jeopardised.

Good luck

djb123
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Post by djb123 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:18 pm

You really have caused yourself problems with this statement "As the 6 month old child has frequently taken ill, they want him to be looked after by a relative until he is grown up a bit more (at least 1year old) before trying to get him into nursery.". Any attempt to get your mother (or any other relative) here in the next 6 months or so is going to have a very limited chance of success.

I agree with HRY2005, your best best option is to postpone any visa application (or even appeals) for a while.

doc_S
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Post by doc_S » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:04 pm

I accept that there are policy provisions for the short term care of relatives. However what you propose to do constitutes employment, either paid or unpaid. This is not permitted for visitors to the UK. I have taken into account the reason for your proposed travel now. However I am not satisfied that this alone should outweigh my other concerns as indicated above
What does this mean? Does this mean that he can consider childcare as an excuse to travel now temporarily but he is not satisfied with other concerns above i.e., finance and accomodation???

We also mentioned in the reason that we onlywanted childcare until the baby is atleast 1 year old ..... Which he will be in Oct. So can we twist this around in appeal that admit first that we were unaware of this rule honestly that grandparent helping with childcare constitutes employment and now as we are aware, we would employ a child minder. Say if we show a contract with appeal. Also now as child would be 1 in Oct, and it would take by then or more to settle an appeal, so can we not claim that as mentioned in our application we only wanted her to do childcare until he is 1 and therefore now there is no need anyway.

I'm trying to find any slightest of possibilities here for successful appeal.

doc_S
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Post by doc_S » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:27 pm

1. Can we make a fresh application while appeal is submitted and awaiting hearing and decision? Does it have impact on the fresh application if an appeal is pending in the same category?

2. If we do not appeal, and only submit a fresh application, with new facts and figures, genuine reasons for family visit (NOT mentioning childcare or anything close to it), then can ECO refuse fresh application on the basis of previous refusal/application or do they only consider the fresh evidence/reasons? If then they refuse onthe basis of old refusal/application then we have stronger grounds for appeal because we can claim that it was a mistake and as we did not repeat it in fresh application, the ECO can not refuse on the basis of previous application .... Does this make sense???

doc_S
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Post by doc_S » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:06 pm

Any expert advice by Batleykhan on the matters above plz???

HRY2005
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Post by HRY2005 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:47 pm

I am not having a go, but I believe you have been appropriately and honestly advised even batleykhan wouldn't advised you otherwise (its all our opinion anyway, we are no experts).

Any attempt to change your story at this point, ECO would never believe you and appeal is not certain bcos you are only trying to change evidence or should I say your intentions after refusal, you are not proving the ECO wrong in his/her decision. I strongly believe that you need to give some time and apply later for a fresh visa with a very different reasons. All these questions had been answered already.

From my experience on this forum, people can only advise and show you the technicalities. Decision about what you want to do is absolutely yours. I'm just concerned about you ruining your mum's chance of future visas.

Best of luck

vinny
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Post by vinny » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:36 pm

Any news on the appeal or fresh application?

See also Child minders for relatives and Chapter 2 - Visitors > 2.20 CHILD MINDERS FOR RELATIVES.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

pearl99
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any news?

Post by pearl99 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:29 pm

Hi i'd like to know of what happened with ur mother's visa, as we r in a similar situation and not sure on what grounds to appeal.

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