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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

General UK immigration & work permits; don't post job search or family related topics!

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tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:38 pm

Dear Guru

I came Uk living in UK as being Dependent of Tier 2 . Now a days Jobless and soon will get convicted on an offence of LC20 & IN10 as i was get caught driving on expired international driving license.

Does it means same if convicted by court or by plead guilty by not going court?


What are the consequences in immigration process ?
What will happen to my visa extension case in 2015 when Main applicant will apply for visa extension?

Will it affect main applicant extension ?If Yes How?
Please Respond ASAP

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Post by geriatrix » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:19 pm

Your offence(s) will be dealt with by a court as a matter of procedure as the police do not have jurisdiction to fine someone for an offence when driving in possession of an international driving permit (expired one, in your case).

If the court imposes a fine / fixed penalty notice, it will have no effect on a leave to remain application by the individual as a PBS migrant (or dependant of one). Unless you wish to contest the offence, you should pay the fine imposed by the court at the earliest opportunity.
Life isn't fair, but you can be!

tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:20 pm

Thanks for the response

The offence was happened when i was driving with expired International license along provisional UK license. So does court issue FPN in this case?

Should i attend the court or accept plead guilty by post.

Are these same things from UKBA point of view?What impact will it have being PBS dependent on my visa extention or ILR keeping in view the current rules.

Regards

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Post by Amber » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:55 pm

See also, the general grounds for refusal, for ILR, a non-custodial conviction, will be a general grounds for refusal for 24 months after it was given.

It is up to you whether you accept guilt, if you are guilty, the obvious answer would be yes.
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Post by geriatrix » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:51 pm

Were you driving in Scotland?
If not, when you were caught offending, did you tell the police that you had a UK provisional license?
Do you know why the police didn't issue you LC20 FPN and IN10 FPN then and there itself, with the option of paying the fine within a stipulated time period?
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tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:48 am

Dear sushdmehta

I was driving in Lancsashire near Preston.Actually Police stoped me and asked on which license am i driving i told them on international driving license they then checked my details while sitting in police car.which showed that i hold a provisional license as well.He said that as i hold international driving license more then 12 months along provisional so my provisional has precedence on the International driving license. Therefore my Insurance also became invalid.

He informed on the spot that matter will go to court.I didnt received any FPN on the spot.I then passed my Full UK driving later on.

Should i attend the court by person or accept plead guilty by post for both of the offences?

What impact this offence will have being PBS dependent on my visa extention (Due in Nov 2015)or ILR keeping in view the current rules?

Regards

tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:07 am

Dear D4109125

As my case is with court and i have been given option to accept the guily by post or accept the guilt in court or Not guilt.

I am going to accept that but do you think that accepting in court & accepting by post is the same thing or it is different from the UKBA point of view i have pasted the relevant portion below?


322(1C)
(iv)Applying for ILR and have received a non-custodial sentence or other
out of court disposal
recorded on their criminal record in the last 24
months

You have applied for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom as
(insert category here) but in view of the fact that on (insert date of
conviction) you were convicted of/admitted an offence for which you
received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal recorded
on your criminal record the Secretary or State is satisfied that you were
convicted of/admitted an offence for which you received a non-custodial
sentence or other out of court disposal recorded on your criminal record in
the last 24 months.

Thanks

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Amber
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Post by Amber » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:06 am

If convicted then its not an out of court disposal it's a non-custodial conviction. You can't drive on a provisional licence unless supervised by a full uk licence holder with L plates displayed.
322(1C)
(iv)Applying for ILR and have received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal recorded on their criminal record in the last 24
months

You have applied for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom as (insert category here) but in view of the fact that on (insert date of
conviction) you were convicted of/admitted an offence for which you
received a non-custodial sentence
or other out of court disposal recorded on your criminal record the Secretary or State is satisfied that you were convicted of/admitted an offence for which you received a non-custodial
sentence or other out of court disposal recorded on your criminal record in
the last 24 months
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Post by geriatrix » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:12 am

It may be a non-custodial conviction only if the OP contests the offence, doesn't pay and is then found guilty by the court and the court imposes a "sentence".

A court issued FPN is not necessarily a conviction!


OP,
I assume you must have been driving without supervision and do not have insurance. So, it appears you are guilty of the offence.

It is a simple court issued FPN - just pay up within the stipulated time period by post or in court. Either way, it it will have no effect on your leave to remain application. Paying up by post is a convenient option - saves you from the hassle to traveling to the court.

Just so that you have piece of mind, here's an example (amongst many hundreds available on the forum).
Life isn't fair, but you can be!

tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:28 am

Dear sushdmehta

I was having insurance at the time of offence as i was regularly paying the insurance premium to them on time while askmid.com shows that my car is still insured.

My question is am i still in guilt of insurance offence?
Please reply queries related its impact on Tier 2 Visa?
Can i have your best contact number via private message of immigration board as i am really worried in this situation & want some guidance if u can provide.

Thanks

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Post by Amber » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:34 am

The OP didn't receive a FPN, he received a court summons and intends to plead guilty by post, an FPN is not an admittance of guilt and is given by the police not courts, by accepting guilt you're admitting to an offence thus the result would be conviction. Though, I agree for leave to remain its ok, though, for ILR it shoud be a bar for 24 months since the conviction was given.

If you're driving without a licence, even if paying for insurance it doesn't matter, as the insurance is invalid.
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Post by geriatrix » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:50 am

Click on the link given.

I have been trying to explain this for the last 2 years, and posts about successful settlement applications despite of single / multiple court issued FPNs (there are scores of examples available on this forum) are evidence of it. If people keep on insisting otherwise, unfortunately, I cannot do anything.

I would be interested in seeing a post wherein an extension / settlement application has been refused because of "criminal conviction" or "non-custodial sentence" when a court issued FPN has been paid within the stipulated time period, or when a summons from court to pay has been complied with in / outside the court.

What happens when an offence is committed by a driver on an international driving permit (specially non-EEA) where any FPN must be issued by a court? In such cases, every offender receives a summons from court asking them to either pay by post or in court?
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Post by Amber » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:56 am

I'm not saying that cases are not successful, all I'm saying is that such successes contravene rule 322(1C) for ILR applications, just because caseworkers don't know the difference between an FPN and a conviction doesn't make their decisions right. I've seen many people receiving cautions within the preceding 24 months of a ILR application and being granted, yet that should be a mandatory refusal. Moreover, just because refusals don't appear on here certainly doesn't mean they don't happen.

Try and apply for citizenship within 3 years of admitting guilt to a court summons = refusal.

If you look at a summons it clearly states that pleading guilt by post will lead to a conviction.

If you plead guilty by post, you will normally be convicted by the court on the date shown in the summons. The court may put the case back for up to four weeks without having to tell you. The court will write to you soon after the hearing to tell you what sentence the magistrates have given you
.
Last edited by Amber on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:58 am

Dear D4109125

Thanks for the reply. Yes its true i didn't received the FPN. i directly received the Court Summon as i was informed by Police officer that i will receive court summon with 2 offences

1 Driving without licence
2 Driving without insurance

What would be the best mitigation i opt to clarify as i was having my International driving licence issued to me 2nd time from my home country which i was using while driving. But i was not aware that IDL(International driving Licence) is only valid for 12 months not after that.

I was not objected by my home country while issuing that IDL that it is not valid after 12 months.They just checked my valid visa & issued International driving license straight away.

Along with IDL i was having UK provisional also.

What do you suggest me how should i proceed in court?


Thanks

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Post by Amber » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:04 am

Ignorance of the law is no defence in criminal matters, you need to seek legal advice from a criminal law solicitor not an immigration forum. Either try and contact the public defender service or search the law society to find a solicitor.
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tier2ilr
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Tier 2 Dependent: LC20 & IN10

Post by tier2ilr » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:11 am

Dear GURU

Should i Plea Guilt by Post or i accpet the guilt at court by informing then the exact circumstances ? As the court is near to my home location so i have no issue to go court by myself.
Does it has same meaning to accept guilt by post or by going to court & explaining them the situation.

What do u suggest?I am NON-EEA driver.

Thanks

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Post by Amber » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:14 am

I don't know how much clearer I can be, seek legal advice and see also, http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/court/summons.htm
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Post by rameshvardhan » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:11 pm

Hi,

I just got my ILR with an IN10. Now the criminality threshold for traffic related offenses are subsidized.

I would suggest better to go to court and plead guilty and the circumstances you might be in with the immigration status.

But with the current rules you need not worry about these. The rules keep changing for ILR, so better to put your stance in the court and get as much extent in your favour as it can be.

Get a basic disclosure certificate before you plan for ILR and check-out for options.

Best Wishes,
RV.

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Post by geriatrix » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:20 pm

Example 1:

Take a case of a driver guilty of motoring offences (for convenience, let's assume LC20 & IN10) when driving on a non-EEA international driving permit.
The Fixed Penalty system is only applicable to holders of UK licences issued by the DVLA at Swansea. Non–UK licences cannot be endorsed with penalty points and therefore do not meet the requirements of the conditional offer. You have no alternative but to proceed by way of a Summons to a Court hearing.
The police has no jurisdiction to issue a FPN and the matter must be dealt with by the court, and therefore the offender will always receive a summons for the court.

Does that mean that such a driver will fall foul to the "general grounds of refusal" because the police has no jurisdiction to issue FPNs here, as compared to someone else driving with a UK license who was issued FPNs by the police because they could do so because they (police) had jurisdiction?


Example 2:

Another case is that of a driver with a UK license endorsed with 9 (or more) points. He is also guilty of LC20 & IN10. The police will not issue a FPN to such a driver because by accepting the same the driver will automatically face a "totting-up" ban of at least 6 months. Does it mean that this driver will fall foul to "general grounds of refusal" because the police are unable to issue FPNs and the offence must be dealt with through a summons by the court?
If you have 9 points or more on your licence, the Police will not issue a Fixed Penalty Notice as by accepting same, the motorist would face a "totting up" ban of at least 6 months.
Likewise, for any conceivable reason that the police does not issue a FPN for an offence (no matter how minor it may be), it seems an offender will fall foul to the "general grounds of refusal" just because he will / has received a summons from the court!


Example 3:

What happens in the instance when a police officer does not have a FPN available. It is a piece of paper, so what if the officer has exhausted the pad?
Where an officer decides that a fixed penalty notice would be inappropriate or is not available, he may choose to deal with the offence by way of summons.

My suggestion:
If the police decides to not issue FPN (for any offence that a police can issue an FPN for), then based on the premise being offered here, the first thing that the offender must do (to not fall foul to "general grounds of refusal") is sue the police for discrimination! :wink:

BTW, summons from a court for a fixed penalty notice is aka "court issued FPN".


According to 322(1C):
(iv) they have, within the 24 months preceding the date of the application, been convicted of or admitted an offence for which they have received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal that is recorded on their criminal record.
When interpreting the rule, it is also important not to lose focus on the latter part of the rule (text highlighted in red) rather than just focusing on "non-custodial sentence or out of court disposal". A summons from court does not necessarily mean a "criminal record" nor does paying a fine for a FPN ordered through summons of a court, though many people seem to believe so.

Hence, a blanket interpretation of the template statement:
If you plead guilty by post, you will normally be convicted by the court on the date shown in the summons. The court may put the case back for up to four weeks without having to tell you. The court will write to you soon after the hearing to tell you what sentence the magistrates have given you
is only applicable (in context of 322(1C)(iv)) only when such a conviction leads to a "criminal record".

Anyhow, not interested in getting into a never ending discussion, as has been my experience on the subject.

As already suggested, if in doubt, the OP should seek legal advice from a solicitor "competent" to deal in such matters.
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Post by Amber » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:03 pm

You're right we could just go round in circles here, not only to what amounts to a 'criminal record' for 322(1C) but also the interpretation of 322(1C). As with any law people can take different views, you indicated that the non-custodial conviction must be recorded on a person's criminal records. However, it is just as conceivable to say that 322(1C)(iv) creates two tests:
(iv) they have, within the 24 months preceding the date of the application, been convicted of or admitted an offence for which they have received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal that is recorded on their criminal record.
Thus this would indicate that the non-custodial conviction would not need to be on a person's criminal record as the or creates two tests.

However, until some clear guidance is created it is ambiguous and really just a guessing game.
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