Visit Visa Rejected - Sponsor not subsisting

[IPFri13]

Hi,
My filipina girlfriend applied for a UK visit visa (late Jan '23).
I acted as Sponsor - being a UK national / passport holder.
We got rejected (mid Feb '23).

In the Cover Letter, regarding our 'relationship' we offered:
- online relationship commencement July '22
- meeting in person (4 weeks in Sept)
evidence was
Sponsors international flights tickets to PH
Sponsor and Applicant (named) internal flight tickets
Sponsor and Applicant (named) travel vouchers for coach transfer between resorts
Photo together in resort
Screenshot of AirBnB bookings in Sept (coinciding with dates/ locations for flights & transfers)
- I supplied evidence of regular (weekly) international money transfers (incl Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan)
- I supplied WhatsApp Call records for months Oct, Nov, Dec

The Refusal stated:
- You have submitted evidence of AirBNB stays for the duration of your stated cohabitation in the Philippines from (early> September to <late> September 2022, however I am not satisfied that this demonstrates a permanent and subsisting relationship
(Note the caseworker also mis-stated the September dates, shortening the period by 5 days.)

Is the Visit Visa Applicant/Sponsor relationship test normally held to the 'subsisting' standard ?
(I thought that was for Marriage)?
What portion of the (subsisting?) relationship was my evidence omitting, I wonder ?


Additionally, in the Cover Letter, regarding Applicant employment status and future study plans , we offered:
- Applicant was employed by <xxx> (Mar '21 to Aug '22) , evidence supplied
- Applicant was employed by <yyy> (Oct '22 to date), (although I am planning to move on shortly)
- Note <Applicant> changed jobs (between end-Aug and end-Sept) allowing me to spend time with my Sponsor here in the Philippines.
- <Applicant> currently considering future employment opportunities in PH (prior to planned college course in Sept).
- [Education Plans] <Applicant> is registered at <xxx> College on <yyy> Course commencing Sept '23
(evidence of registration and payment receipt supplied)

The Refusal stated:
- Furthermore you state that you started employment with <abc> in Oct '22 and have submitted a contract/letter of employment. However I do not find it credible that an employer would grant someone so recently employed 2 months annual leave so soon after starting in their employ.
- In addition you have failed to demonstrate that they have given you permission to absent from work or on annual leave.

The caseworker does not seem to have considered our stated plans... (leaving job then considering new employment prior to college course in Sept).
Does that seem like an error on their side?


I assume we just have to reapply, pay again, go to the back of the queue, amending our new application to say we have a Visa Refusal history

Comments / thoughts most appreciated.
Good luck all!

[alterhase58]

Not an expert on visitor visa issues, however, what has been provided to assure the ECO that applicant will leave the UK at the end of the visa term?
What visa length did your girlfriend apply for? What are the strong links to the home country?
You have given the boyfriend/girlfriend scenario which I believe can be seen as a red flag.

[Ticktack]

Hi,
My filipina girlfriend applied for a UK visit visa (late Jan '23).
I acted as Sponsor - being a UK national / passport holder.
We got rejected (mid Feb '23).

In the Cover Letter, regarding our 'relationship' we offered:
- online relationship commencement July '22
- meeting in person (4 weeks in Sept)
evidence was
Sponsors international flights tickets to PH
Sponsor and Applicant (named) internal flight tickets
Sponsor and Applicant (named) travel vouchers for coach transfer between resorts
Photo together in resort
Screenshot of AirBnB bookings in Sept (coinciding with dates/ locations for flights & transfers)
- I supplied evidence of regular (weekly) international money transfers (incl Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan)
- I supplied WhatsApp Call records for months Oct, Nov, Dec

The Refusal stated:
- You have submitted evidence of AirBNB stays for the duration of your stated cohabitation in the Philippines from (early> September to <late> September 2022, however I am not satisfied that this demonstrates a permanent and subsisting relationship
(Note the caseworker also mis-stated the September dates, shortening the period by 5 days.)

Is the Visit Visa Applicant/Sponsor relationship test normally held to the 'subsisting' standard ?
(I thought that was for Marriage)?
What portion of the (subsisting?) relationship was my evidence omitting, I wonder ?


Additionally, in the Cover Letter, regarding Applicant employment status and future study plans , we offered:
- Applicant was employed by <xxx> (Mar '21 to Aug '22) , evidence supplied
- Applicant was employed by <yyy> (Oct '22 to date), (although I am planning to move on shortly)
- Note <Applicant> changed jobs (between end-Aug and end-Sept) allowing me to spend time with my Sponsor here in the Philippines.
- <Applicant> currently considering future employment opportunities in PH (prior to planned college course in Sept).
- [Education Plans] <Applicant> is registered at <xxx> College on <yyy> Course commencing Sept '23
(evidence of registration and payment receipt supplied)

The Refusal stated:
- Furthermore you state that you started employment with <abc> in Oct '22 and have submitted a contract/letter of employment. However I do not find it credible that an employer would grant someone so recently employed 2 months annual leave so soon after starting in their employ.
- In addition you have failed to demonstrate that they have given you permission to absent from work or on annual leave.

The caseworker does not seem to have considered our stated plans... (leaving job then considering new employment prior to college course in Sept).
Does that seem like an error on their side?


I assume we just have to reapply, pay again, go to the back of the queue, amending our new application to say we have a Visa Refusal history

Comments / thoughts most appreciated.
Good luck all!

It's a standard rejection. If you applied for a USA visa and you go for an interview, the minute you mention that you have a boyfriend/girlfriend over there. You can be rest assured that you get a rejection.
Back to the UK and the matter at hand, there are no interviews here anymore (except required occasionally). The ECO has to work with your documentations.
You being a sponsor doesn't count for much when it comes to a visit visa. It's about the person coming to the UK. Would he/she leave!
Mentioning my boyfriend doesn't help as explained above, it makes it worse.

If she had been travelling to the UK before and was renewing a visa and mentions boyfriend, they might let that slide as applicant would have a good immigration history.

What you might not know, is that a lot of people use this guise to enter the UK and then try to apply to stay as civil partners.
Based on probabilities, your girlfriend doesn't pass the assessment test.

Taking you out of the equation, she has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that she by herself is self sustaining.

You've made the mistake of thinking that your British nationality makes it a slam dunk approval. There's no way that influences the application process.

The only time it would help is if you were applying from a spouse/CP visa.

I know it sounds cruel, but it's a standard refusal all day long.

[AmazonianX]

Hi,
My filipina girlfriend applied for a UK visit visa (late Jan '23).
I acted as Sponsor - being a UK national / passport holder.
We got rejected (mid Feb '23).

In the Cover Letter, regarding our 'relationship' we offered:
- online relationship commencement July '22
- meeting in person (4 weeks in Sept)
evidence was
Sponsors international flights tickets to PH
Sponsor and Applicant (named) internal flight tickets
Sponsor and Applicant (named) travel vouchers for coach transfer between resorts
Photo together in resort
Screenshot of AirBnB bookings in Sept (coinciding with dates/ locations for flights & transfers)
- I supplied evidence of regular (weekly) international money transfers (incl Aug, Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan)
- I supplied WhatsApp Call records for months Oct, Nov, Dec

The Refusal stated:
- You have submitted evidence of AirBNB stays for the duration of your stated cohabitation in the Philippines from (early> September to <late> September 2022, however I am not satisfied that this demonstrates a permanent and subsisting relationship
(Note the caseworker also mis-stated the September dates, shortening the period by 5 days.)

Is the Visit Visa Applicant/Sponsor relationship test normally held to the 'subsisting' standard ?
(I thought that was for Marriage)?
What portion of the (subsisting?) relationship was my evidence omitting, I wonder ?


Additionally, in the Cover Letter, regarding Applicant employment status and future study plans , we offered:
- Applicant was employed by <xxx> (Mar '21 to Aug '22) , evidence supplied
- Applicant was employed by <yyy> (Oct '22 to date), (although I am planning to move on shortly)
- Note <Applicant> changed jobs (between end-Aug and end-Sept) allowing me to spend time with my Sponsor here in the Philippines.
- <Applicant> currently considering future employment opportunities in PH (prior to planned college course in Sept).
- [Education Plans] <Applicant> is registered at <xxx> College on <yyy> Course commencing Sept '23
(evidence of registration and payment receipt supplied)

The Refusal stated:
- Furthermore you state that you started employment with <abc> in Oct '22 and have submitted a contract/letter of employment. However I do not find it credible that an employer would grant someone so recently employed 2 months annual leave so soon after starting in their employ.?????
- In addition you have failed to demonstrate that they have given you permission to absent from work or on annual leave. ?????

The caseworker does not seem to have considered our stated plans... (leaving job then considering new employment prior to college course in Sept).
Does that seem like an error on their side? No


I assume we just have to reapply, pay again, go to the back of the queue, amending our new application to say we have a Visa Refusal history

Comments / thoughts most appreciated.
Good luck all!

Your stated plan is so fluid. It will give concern of TIES with home country when no evidence of family and financial is shown.
For work no long term one with the current one indicated as 'moving on shortly'.
Burden of proof lies on the applicant and it appears your case as presented is not convincing enough.

[IPFri13]

Just a quick update to say thanks to all for the feedback - it’s very helpful.
Perhaps I misunderstood (overestimated) the weighting I assumed would be given to Sponsorship.

Regarding feedback about this being (an example of) a ‘standard’ rejection…
Are you suggesting that explains the (apparently misplaced) use of the term “permanent and subsisting relationship” ?
As I said, I understood this to be inappropriate (not a relevant test) for Visit Visa Sponsorship criteria.

I base that on the Caseworker Guidance below.
I believe there are other eligibility criteria elsewhere which, if I recall, were just about the Sponsor’s own eligibility to be in the UK.

Maintenance and accommodation provided by a third party
See: paragraph V 4.3 of Appendix V: Visitor.
Maintenance and accommodation support can be provided by a third party, including family members, friends and other people with whom the applicant has a genuine personal or professional relationship. If the third party is in the UK, they must not be in breach of immigration law at the time of the decision on the visitor’s application or their entry to the UK. Where that is not the case the support must be disregarded.
To assess whether the relationship with the third party is genuine and whether the third party intends to provide support consider:
• the third party’s previous history of ‘sponsoring’ visitors - for example, previous failures to support visitors may call into question their intention and ability to do so for this application
• the relationship between the applicant and the third party
For visa applications, you may want to check with the applicant or third party:
• where and how they met
• how often and by what method they communicate
If the third party is an individual such as a friend or family member providing financial support for the applicant, they must satisfy you that they have enough funds available to adequately support themselves and anyone normally dependent on them, as well as the applicant.
Where you believe it is more likely than not that the third party will be unable to provide this support, you may refuse the application.

——————-

I supplied some TIES evidence also
I will post that a little later (Thankyou!)

[lolo2]

Genuine question, is there any specific visa (fiancé, etc.) for someone in a relationship (not yet married or partnership) like the OP to invite the other person to come to the UK?

I also agree with the previous comments. We are not HO employees/experts, but there are a number of red flags in this application that made it almost impossible to be approved.

Every visitor is treated as a potential immigrant, it is the applicant's duty to convince the ECO of the opposite. This application, or the way how it was submitted, was screaming that your girlfriend has almost no reasons to leave the UK at the end of her planned stay.

You mentioned the term “permanent and subsisting relationship” and cited a caseworker guidance:

Maintenance and accommodation support can be provided by a third party, including family members, friends and other people with whom the applicant has a genuine personal or professional relationship

To me the term 'relationship' or 'personal relationship' here is not (necessarily) related to girlfriends/boyfriends. I guess you cited it trying to understand why the application was rejected when 'personal relationships' between the sponsor and the visitor are clearly stated in the guidance?

Again, I am not sure what will be the appropriate route to follow in cases like yours, hence my question above. I will wait for others to comment.

[IPFri13]

Regarding the caseworker's use of the term "permanent and subsisting relationship”.

My understanding is this term has no recognised meaning in considering (any type of) visa applications. And certainly not a visitor visa application.

I believe the caseworker meant to reference "durable relationship" and "genuine and subsisting relationship".
These appear to be recognised terms in Partner Relationships.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... artner.pdf

The caseworker also used the term "cohabitation" which I believe has special meaning applicable in (non visitor) visa applications also.

I'm a little surprised there doesn't seem to be a consensus agreeing with me (on the specific questions I raised) on this forum so far.

[alterhase58]

The consensus here is that an application based on an online relationship started July 2022 is bound to fail.
References to non-spousal relationships only apply to a minimum of 2 years relationship akin to a marriage (and not to a visitor visa), I believe.

[IPFri13]

The consensus here is that an application based on an online relationship started July 2022 is bound to fail.

Hi Alterhase, thx for your thoughts, not asking you to speak on behalf of others, but from your perspective (and I don't know your knowledge/experience in these matters), but are there specific sections in the Rules and Guidance for Visit Visas that DON'T allow a 'boyfriend' relationship between Applicant/Sponsor but DO allow 'friend' relationship? I'm struggling to see what some of the comments I see here are based on.

.
References to non-spousal relationships only apply to a minimum of 2 years relationship akin to a marriage (and not to a visitor visa), I believe.

So,
- Do you have a view (please) on whether it was correct of the ECO to state that the burden of proof on our visit visa application should prove "permanent and subsisting relationship” ?
- Do you think it was correct of the ECO to reference 'cohabitation' ?

Note I posted earlier what I believe to be the Guidance around Maintenance/Accom by Sponsor.

Many thanks , genuinely appreciate your time

Note my posts have only included 'extracts' from our visit visa application that seemed to me particularly relevant to contextualise the ECO rejection reasons. So any comments I have received here regarding things that appear missing may just reflect that I've not included enough details here for a full analysis (but I hoped enough for the specific queries regarding rejection reasons).

[ALKB]

So,
- Do you have a view (please) on whether it was correct of the ECO to state that the burden of proof on our visit visa application should prove "permanent and subsisting relationship” ?
- Do you think it was correct of the ECO to reference 'cohabitation' ?

Note I posted earlier what I believe to be the Guidance around Maintenance/Accom by Sponsor.

Many thanks , genuinely appreciate your time

Note my posts have only included 'extracts' from our visit visa application that seemed to me particularly relevant to contextualise the ECO rejection reasons. So any comments I have received here regarding things that appear missing may just reflect that I've not included enough details here for a full analysis (but I hoped enough for the specific queries regarding rejection reasons).

There is a lot to unpack here.

First of all, you overwhelmed the application with the kind of evidence that is typical for settlement applications based on a durable relationship (both cohabiting and married couples have to submit evidence of a "genuine and persisting relationship" to weed out sham marriages). Whether the case worker should have used these terms or not is pretty immaterial, a visitor has to show they are a visitor, what you provided showed the opposite.

Especially the regular money transfers are a huge red flag. It shows that the applicant is financially dependent on you, the sponsor, while a visitor should have their financial interests in their home country, not in the UK.

Plans to leave current employment is another red flag and no reason to return home after the visit.

The usual documents from the side of the sponsor are:

- Invitation letter, broadly explaining the relationship (romantic relationship is still a bit of a red flag but can be balanced out by strong ties to the home country)
- proof of sponsor´s British nationality or immigration status
- proof of accommodation (tenancy agreement or deed) if providing accommodation
- 6 months´ bank statements if sponsoring the trip financially

Instead, you supplied a huge amount of supporting documents and emphasized the seriousness of your relationship.

Did you state in the application that you lived/stayed with her during your visit to the Phillippines? If so, the term "cohabitation" is not completely incorrect and another red flag - you tried out living togetehr, now she is on the way to the UK.

The case worker saw this:

- relatively short relationship
- you went halfway around the world pretty quickly to meet
- you very quickly started to support her financially on a regular basis
- she is planning to leave her job after just a few months in that employment, with no solid proof of plans for after the visit to the UK
- risk: she might be using you to get to the UK
- risk: you might be trying to circumvent immigration rules via a visitor visa to avoid a costly and complicated settlement (fiancé, spouse) application


You can try to apply again with more proof about her ties to her home country but sadly, now the refusal is on record.

If all fails, you may want to consider meeting in a different country/different countries for holidays to build travel history and show compliance with visa rules.

[IPFri13]

There is a lot to unpack here.
....
If all fails, you may want to consider meeting in a different country/different countries for holidays to build travel history and show compliance with visa rules.

Thank you ALKB - your comments make a lot of sense to me and are really useful.

The Home Ties was always the most challenging part of the application for us.

The Applicant had provided:
- Family Ties
- parents in province, one older sibling (working) and 3 young siblings she is very close to
- we provided Chat evidence of gift-giving from Applicant to family members
- we supplied Ancestry family tree slides showing identity docs for family members
- Family Travel History
- travel history of Applicant's uncle (whose nice townhouse she lives at , in the Manila suburbs)
- he had travelled and worked (with visa history supplied) to the middle-east for 20 years
- Employment History
- 18 months plus in white-collar office work, employer issued docs confirming status, salary, taxes
- Education Plans
- enrolment on college course Sept '23
- Domicile Plans (Asia)
- chat evidence of plans to live in Thailand / Philippines (and visit UK)
- Local Bank Account
- Entrepreneurial Business Activity and Plans
- details of livestock farming business setup some 6 months ago

[IPFri13]

First of all, you overwhelmed the application with the kind of evidence that is typical for settlement applications based on a durable relationship (both cohabiting and married couples have to submit evidence of a "genuine and persisting relationship" to weed out sham marriages).

Instead, you supplied a huge amount of supporting documents and emphasized the seriousness of your relationship.

Regarding what I said we had provided demonstrating Proof Of Relationship.
ALKB - you seem to think it was perhaps 'too much' information (for a visit visa).

However, after the 2 Rejection Reasons (I provided in my earlier posts)...
The ECO went on to conclude :
"I am therefore not satisfied that you have a genuine professional or personal relationship with your sponsor or that they can and will provide you with support for the intended duration of your stay. Your application is therefore refused under paragraphs V 4.2 (a) and (c) and V4.3 (a) and (c) of the Immigration Rules."

I'm very concerned the ECO is not satisfied there is a relationship (adequate for the purposes of Sponsorship).

I'm very concerned (and see no reasoning for) ECO stating "or that they can and will provide you with support for the intended duration of your stay."
The Sponsor bank accounts, evidence of source of funds, were comprehensive. A Sponsor Invitation was provided.

Did you state in the application that you lived/stayed with her during your visit to the Phillippines? If so, the term "cohabitation" is not completely incorrect and another red flag - you tried out living together, now she is on the way to the UK.

The Cover Letter stated : "We stayed together in the Philippines in September, and travelled to El Nido in Palawan (Philippines)". We stayed at AirBnBs booked by Sponsor (not at her home address). It was a holiday.

If all fails, you may want to consider meeting in a different country/different countries for holidays to build travel history and show compliance with visa rules.

We will do this. Although no specific reference was made to travel history.

[AmazonianX]

Either the ECO is confused or wrong choice of words as there does not appear to be the concept of sponsorship for visit visas at all.

[ALKB]

Either the ECO is confused or wrong choice of words as there does not appear to be the concept of sponsorship for visit visas at all.

There is, I have acted as sponsor several times.

[ALKB]

Thank you ALKB - your comments make a lot of sense to me and are really useful.

The Home Ties was always the most challenging part of the application for us.

The Applicant had provided:
- Family Ties
- parents in province, one older sibling (working) and 3 young siblings she is very close to
Does "in province" mean that they do not live in the same household?

- we provided Chat evidence of gift-giving from Applicant to family members
Not sure what this is supposed to prove. She can chat from anywhere in the world. How often does she visit?

- we supplied Ancestry family tree slides showing identity docs for family members
Ancestry as in the genealogy company? Did you provide certified copies of birth certificates/ID?

- Family Travel History
- travel history of Applicant's uncle (whose nice townhouse she lives at , in the Manila suburbs)
Does she live in the same household as the uncle or is he providing the house for her sole use? Does she pay rent? If not, it´s not a home she needs to hurry back to. Also, uncle´s travel history is irrelevant, as he is not the visa applicant.

- he had travelled and worked (with visa history supplied) to the middle-east for 20 years
Again, he is not the visa applicant

- Employment History
- 18 months plus in white-collar office work, employer issued docs confirming status, salary, taxes
18 months is nothing, she seems to have had several employers and she stated that she is planning to quit, soon. Current, ongoing employment is a tie to the home country.

- Education Plans
- enrolment on college course Sept '23
Has she formally been accepted? have the tuition fees been paid?

- Domicile Plans (Asia)
- chat evidence of plans to live in Thailand / Philippines (and visit UK)
This is maybe proof of your relationship, but chat logs are no proof/guarantee for where you will decide to live in the future

- Local Bank Account
How many months bank statements? Is the amount sufficient to pay for her travel expenses? Does it show a good, regular income apart from the money you have been sending?

- Entrepreneurial Business Activity and Plans
- details of livestock farming business setup some 6 months ago
Again, this is extremely recent. Who is taking care of this and would this business be impossible if she were to stay in the UK rather than live in Manila? Since you provided evidence that she is thinking about moving to Thailand with you, the business sounds like it´s managed remotely? If so, it´s not a reason to leave the UK.

In my personal opinion, you provided too much information that had not been asked for.

She needs to show situations and relationships that make it necessary for her to be in the Phillippines.

Employment
Family members she is physically responsible for
Business that requires her presence
Paid for schooling that´s no longer refundable

[secret.simon]

Think like an Entry Clearance Officer.

What evidence can you provide that the applicant (your girlfriend) will be compelled to leave the UK before or by the end of her visa?

A young person of either gender, with no commitments to work, studies or (spouse/children) family, and whose entire visit is being sponsored by a British citizen, is highly unlikely to get a visit visa.

So prove a commitment to something that will compel her to leave the UK.

[IPFri13]

Thanks, as ever, for the replies.
I'll probably reply separately (shortly) to you ALKB with inline clarifications.

I'll still need to try to understand why the ECO refused to acknowledge a relationship exists (given the long list of evidence provided, and the single evidence item the ECO referenced).

However, just to add a little information about the working conditions, specifically re Holiday Allowances, in call centres (Business Process Outsourcing) in the Philippines....

1. no (annual leave) holiday is available in the 1st 6 months employment
2. employees work 5 days 'on' , 2 days 'off' (off days are not usually weekends)
3. there is a restriction to 2 days holiday (max) being taken in any week period
4. so the maximum time you can take away from the office is 4 days (per week)

The info above was provided to me (as Sponsor) by the Applicant, who has worked in that industry for circa 2 years.

I'm not sure what the HR position (Annual Leave, working conditions) is 'on paper'...
But I believe these are the realities.

So - if you want to take a 1 week holiday (or longer) - that appears incompatible with the white-collar / call centre outsourced business model. Rather different perhaps to expectations of western ECOs.

This is (to a considerable degree) why the Applicant changed job to facilitate a holiday plan.
It's why the Applicant would need to change job to take another holiday of more thann 4 days duration.

We will consider this as we make plans about the Applicants working options in future.

[Ticktack]

Not sure why the OP cannot see the obvious, and see things the way everyone else sees it.

I thought coming here with visa issues was to get unbiased opinions and to let fresh eyes look at the application with a view of how to move forward for a favourable outcome.

The summary of this reminds me of Solomon Grundy.
Met online in July
Sent money weekly commencing August to January
Visited PH to meet in person in September
UK Visa application made in Jan/Feb

You just smell a rat until proven otherwise.

Just having a relationship with someone in the UK doesn't mean the person gets visa approved. If that was the issue, No parent, sibling, cousin, uncle/aunt, grand-parents, spouse and in this case girlfriend would ever get a refusal.

No one here can justify why the ECO made the decision in the fashion that he/she did. We certainly don't have crystal balls.

However, 2 things can happen;
1. You accept the way everyone sees it and try to strategize a new way forward.
2. You don't accept the rejection. You re-apply and address all your grievances in a cover letter and hope for the best. Keep everything crossed.

If option 2 doesn't work, then she can't apply for a UK visa for a long time. Quick successive applications would be seen as desperate move to try to enter the UK.

But hey, what do I know. Just shooting at the breeze.

[IPFri13]

Thanks all.
I'll come back with updates as and when updates are available.
Trip to HK booked today.
Israel thereafter I think.
No Visa requirements!