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Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

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brucem
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Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:06 pm

Hi,

I'll cut right to the chaise: I visited Sharm El-Sheikh (Egypt) a few months ago on holiday and ended up meeting someone. He lives in Egypt but was also holidaying in Sharm El-Sheikh when we met. Our connection was so strong that we both extended our stay in Sharm El-Sheikh, he even booked in at the same hotel as me. We combined most of our planned holiday activities as well. He then asked me to extend my stay in Egypt and go back with him to his home town. I ended up staying two weeks with him at his home and then returned to the UK. Before I left we promised to remain commited to each other and that we will plan a visit soon so that we can spend more time together to see where this relationship can go.

It has now been one month since I returned to the UK and being apart from each other is becoming painful. I have now invited him to visit the UK and will sponsor his stay, pay for his return flight and also provide support and maintenance. I work for a very large and respected auditing company in the UK. I am on a TIer 2 General and hold a senior position with the firm. I have a spotless immigration history and have been in the UK now for nearly 5 years. I have my own 1 bedroom apartment, have a 5 digit balance in the bank and of course a steady income. In summary, I'm the perfect sponsor.

The issue is this: he is 28 years old and unemployed. He has never travelled outside of Egypt before and thus had to apply for a passport which he received this week. He is dependant on his cousin which supports him financially and emotionally. They grew up together and his mother basically raised his cousin. He lives with his cousin in a nice 2bedroom house which his cousin's father own and therefore they pay no rent. They have lived there for over 5 years. My friend generally takes care of the household chores and also takes care of the dog who lives indoors. Its a husky dog so having someone at home during the day is important as these kind dont dont fare well being alone all day. My friend also had his bank account re-activated so that his cousin can transfer him spending money which he will use during his visit. Of course I dont expect him to pay for anything as I am in a position to provide him with everything he needs.

My friend does own two cars: he lend one of the cars to his brother and the other one he drives. Its a very nice car, a BMW which he also modified. He is a motorvehicle enthusiast and also started a facebook group in 2015 for likeminded people in Egypt, which is today one of the largest groups of this kind in Egypt with over 50,000 members which he administrates. In the past he has arranged meetups and even held events. This is a hobby and his car is his pride and joy.

My friend and his cousin also looks after his mom, but she has her own home which she owns. She also receives life insurance income from her late husband, but this isnt enough so they sometimes give her money in the form of cash. She is emotionally dependant on both him and his cousin. My cousin also has a brother which she depends on financially and emotionally..

The main purpose of the visit is for him to come and see me. With LOndon being in lockdown there is not much we can do in terms of siteseeing etc, so we plan to say at home, play online games and generally just enjoy each others company. Being unemployed makes it easy for him to come and visit me for a few months and in return this keeps me sane as being home alone during a lockdown is not good for anyone's health, let alone if you missing someone you have recently fell in love with.

So that's the gist of it. I have been following the guidelines in a very nice online article called "
The Ultimate UK Visitor Visa Guidance for 2020" and also the Visitors Guidelines PDF provieded by the home office. I am handling most of the visa application and also typing his cover letter as his english writing is not the best (its not bad but mine is better).

The application will look somethign like this:

Financial/Economic/Family/Personal:

Cousin:
6 bank statements
proof of income (payslips)
Proof of ID
proof of address (and potentially proof that his dad owns the house)
Letter of support (that my friend is dependant on him and that he will provide spending money into my friends recently activated account).

My friend:
bank statements (which wont contain much as its only been re-activated a week ago)
proof of ownership for the two cars (including photos).
Proof that he runs and administrates the online group and also proof that he occasionally hosts events.

Household: photos of the house, photos of duke in the house with them

Me (Sponsor):
proof of address, including pictures of house to show that its addiquite to support him.
Proof of income (payslips) and letter from employer.
6 months bankstatements
Passport & Tier 2 permit incl Copies of all pages of passport.
Written undertaking that I will support and maintain him.
Letter of support

Relationship:
proof of when, how and where we met.
Proof of where we stayed while on holiday, that he changed his hotel to mine,
Proof that I visited his home town and stayed with him for 2 weeks,
Proof that we have been communicating non-stop ever since.

Is there anything I missed or anything that you think I should add? Also, I welcome personal opinions on whether all of this sounds believable on face value? Of course everything I stated is true and I will provide all the supporting documents to back up every statement I made. I know the home office has a mindset of being sceptical.

Thanks everyone! :D

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by ALKB » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:49 pm

brucem wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:06 pm
Hi,

I'll cut right to the chaise: I visited Sharm El-Sheikh (Egypt) a few months ago on holiday and ended up meeting someone. He lives in Egypt but was also holidaying in Sharm El-Sheikh when we met. Our connection was so strong that we both extended our stay in Sharm El-Sheikh, he even booked in at the same hotel as me. We combined most of our planned holiday activities as well. He then asked me to extend my stay in Egypt and go back with him to his home town. I ended up staying two weeks with him at his home and then returned to the UK. Before I left we promised to remain commited to each other and that we will plan a visit soon so that we can spend more time together to see where this relationship can go.

It has now been one month since I returned to the UK and being apart from each other is becoming painful. I have now invited him to visit the UK and will sponsor his stay, pay for his return flight and also provide support and maintenance. I work for a very large and respected auditing company in the UK. I am on a TIer 2 General and hold a senior position with the firm. I have a spotless immigration history and have been in the UK now for nearly 5 years. I have my own 1 bedroom apartment, have a 5 digit balance in the bank and of course a steady income. In summary, I'm the perfect sponsor.

The issue is this: he is 28 years old and unemployed. He has never travelled outside of Egypt before and thus had to apply for a passport which he received this week. He is dependant on his cousin which supports him financially and emotionally. They grew up together and his mother basically raised his cousin. He lives with his cousin in a nice 2bedroom house which his cousin's father own and therefore they pay no rent. They have lived there for over 5 years. My friend generally takes care of the household chores and also takes care of the dog who lives indoors. Its a husky dog so having someone at home during the day is important as these kind dont dont fare well being alone all day. My friend also had his bank account re-activated so that his cousin can transfer him spending money which he will use during his visit. Of course I dont expect him to pay for anything as I am in a position to provide him with everything he needs.

My friend does own two cars: he lend one of the cars to his brother and the other one he drives. Its a very nice car, a BMW which he also modified. He is a motorvehicle enthusiast and also started a facebook group in 2015 for likeminded people in Egypt, which is today one of the largest groups of this kind in Egypt with over 50,000 members which he administrates. In the past he has arranged meetups and even held events. This is a hobby and his car is his pride and joy.

My friend and his cousin also looks after his mom, but she has her own home which she owns. She also receives life insurance income from her late husband, but this isnt enough so they sometimes give her money in the form of cash. She is emotionally dependant on both him and his cousin. My cousin also has a brother which she depends on financially and emotionally..

The main purpose of the visit is for him to come and see me. With LOndon being in lockdown there is not much we can do in terms of siteseeing etc, so we plan to say at home, play online games and generally just enjoy each others company. Being unemployed makes it easy for him to come and visit me for a few months and in return this keeps me sane as being home alone during a lockdown is not good for anyone's health, let alone if you missing someone you have recently fell in love with.

So that's the gist of it. I have been following the guidelines in a very nice online article called "
The Ultimate UK Visitor Visa Guidance for 2020" and also the Visitors Guidelines PDF provieded by the home office. I am handling most of the visa application and also typing his cover letter as his english writing is not the best (its not bad but mine is better).

The application will look somethign like this:

Financial/Economic/Family/Personal:

Cousin:
6 bank statements
proof of income (payslips)
Proof of ID
proof of address (and potentially proof that his dad owns the house)
Letter of support (that my friend is dependant on him and that he will provide spending money into my friends recently activated account).

My friend:
bank statements (which wont contain much as its only been re-activated a week ago)
proof of ownership for the two cars (including photos).
Proof that he runs and administrates the online group and also proof that he occasionally hosts events.

Household: photos of the house, photos of duke in the house with them

Me (Sponsor):
proof of address, including pictures of house to show that its addiquite to support him.
Proof of income (payslips) and letter from employer.
6 months bankstatements
Passport & Tier 2 permit incl Copies of all pages of passport.
Written undertaking that I will support and maintain him.
Letter of support

Relationship:
proof of when, how and where we met.
Proof of where we stayed while on holiday, that he changed his hotel to mine,
Proof that I visited his home town and stayed with him for 2 weeks,
Proof that we have been communicating non-stop ever since.

Is there anything I missed or anything that you think I should add? Also, I welcome personal opinions on whether all of this sounds believable on face value? Of course everything I stated is true and I will provide all the supporting documents to back up every statement I made. I know the home office has a mindset of being sceptical.

Thanks everyone! :D
Be prepared for an uphill battle.

Look at it from the ECO's perspective: a young, unemployed man, whose main task in daily life is to dogsit, yet somehow has enough money to maintain a luxury car plus one more and can afford several weeks holiday in Sharm-el-Sheikh.

His mother is emotionally dependent on him and his cousin needs him to take care of the dog, but it's not a problem to spend several months (how many months are you planning?) in the UK.

When you say the cousin will transfer some spending money, how much exactly? Large sums being transferred into the applicant's account is one of the more common refusal reasons for visit visas.

Now, on another note, you might want to look up the term 'bezness'. I am not saying this is what is happening to you, but you may want to be aware that this is a thing that's extremely common in North African resort towns. I personally know a bezness victim and your story sounds exceedingly familiar.
I am not a regulated immigration advisor. I am offering an opinion and not advice.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by secret.simon » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:54 pm

The crucial thing that you must include in any visit visa application is proof that the applicant (in this case, the Egyptian guy) has such strong ties to his country of habitual residence that he will return back to that country when the visit visa comes to an end.

In this case, the fact that he is unemployed (and presumably not studying) will count against him quite heavily, as that means that there is no pressure on him to return to Egypt.

EDIT: Beaten by @ALKB. Thanks for introducing the forums to the term "bezness".
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by Zerubbabel » Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:18 pm

Hello,

I don't know where to start.

From the visa point of view, this profile looks very typical for refused applications. I don't recommend he tries as the refusal seems nearly certain here. One thing with visas, is that you don't want to have refusals because they will always create a negative bias against any application lodged in the future. Therefore, it's always a good idea to apply only when there are realistic chances of getting a visa.

Your friend doesn't work, but still he owns 2 cars including a BMW. This means 2 things to any Home Office employee:

- He works cash in hand and doesn't declare to avoid paying taxes (very common in the area)
- He is involved in some illegal trade/business where everything is in cash

1 week for banking history is suspicious.

Attachment to Egypt is nil. A man of his age, needs to show a stable job, a family (wife + children) and some property in order to stand reasonable chances to get a visitor visa.

You can't demonstrate attachment to home country with a photo of 2 cars, a dog and a house where you are allowed to have a bed for free + 1 week banking history. Despite his dedication to the Facebook group, this cannot constitute an incentive to return to Egypt and the group can be managed from anywhere.

He will most certainly get a refusal under paragraph 4.2+

Other than immigration things. I am Arab, not from Egypt, but I know Egypt and Sharm el Sheikh where I used to dive back in the days. As you seem acquainted with our culture, let me be frank with you. The time in Egypt was fun and I am happy for you. Especially with the lockdown in the UK, having some fun abroad, meeting people and seeing places is good for mental health. I don't want to hurt your feelings but if you were my sister, I would tell you stop while you can. No damage has been done to your life at this point in time. You have your life in London, your Tier 2, you work for a serious auditing company. There are 4 big ones. If you are there in a senior capacity, it means your career is doing very well. You don't need to get involved more than what you did in a social, economic and cultural situations you know nothing about.

I have many of these stories and I don't know a single one that ended up well. If yours ends up well, it will be a miracle.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:13 am

Let me begin by saying thank you to everyone who has responded thus far. I am surprised (and grateful) by the detailed responses received and they certainly highlight things I didn't stop thing about.

Firstly, the term bezness. Never hard of this term before but I can see how this kind of thing could happen. If I understand it correctly, bezness is when you meet someone while on holiday and then that person pretends to fall in love with you only to get you to invite him visit you in your country and then takes you for a ride? Yeah, I get it, that would suck big time. Of course, I don't think this is the case but what I think is irrelavent as I am the one who is in love here. What I can say is that I am the one pushing for this visit, not him. In fact, sometimes i get a little bit frustrated with him as he doesn't really seem to be in any hurry to come visit...so yeah...if anything, its me trying to get him to come, not the other way around. Lets maybe ignore the pathetic side of what I just said :cry:
Look at it from the ECO's perspective: a young, unemployed man, whose main task in daily life is to dogsit, yet somehow has enough money to maintain a luxury car plus one more and can afford several weeks holiday in Sharm-el-Sheikh.
@ALKB: Thank you for painting this picture for me, in all honestly I never say it in this way. But I can completely understand why someone would think this. Allow me to add more detail and then you can tell me if the additional information helps paint a better picture?

1. My friend is 27 years old. He did 2 years of manditory military service after school and then completed a 4 year college degree. In addition to that, he also worked for Vodafone for 2 years. So, its not like he has done nothing with his life, its just at the moment he is unemployed and there isn't anything wrong with that (in my opinion).

2. My friend's cousin grew up with them and was cared for by my friend's family as if he was a sibling. There were times when my friend's cousin was unemployed and my friend was earning good money and during those times he took care of his cousin. Now the wheels have turned where his cousin has a senior (and stable job) at a university and is able to take care of them both. The house they live in is own by his cousin's father, who unfortunately is commited full time to an institute.

3. My friends dad died a few years ago. He received a lumpsum money from insurance policies etc...He purchased the BMW (2nd hand) with that money and modified it himself with parts he bought over the years.

4.
yet somehow has enough money to maintain a luxury car plus one more and can afford several weeks holiday in Sharm-el-Sheikh.
The BMW (older model) he purchased 2nd hand from the money he received when his dad died. The 2nd car (VW Polo) is a 1999 model. In the UK it would be considered scrap metal. They are by no means "luxuary cars". His BMW (and his Computer) is really his only pride possessions. He is dependant on his cousin who paid for the holiday in Sharm-el-Sheikh. His cousin received a bonus in december (as can be seen on his payslip, I checked) and this allowed them to stay in Sharm-El-Sheikh for 8 nights. Also, I know where they stayed and know that the rooms were very very cheap.

Improvement points:

Would it help if I included the following details in the application:

1. Include that he did 2 years military (he received monthly pay), 4 years college and 2 years of working for vodafone. That way it doesn't look like he has been sitting on his mule doing nothing all his life.

2. For into more detail about the cars. Explain that he purchased the BMW with money he received when his dad died. He said he will be able to get bank statements showing the lumpsum deposit. I can also include that the VW Polo is worth roughly 3,700GBP and the BMW around 20,000GBP.

3.
1 week for banking history is suspicious.
His bank account was made dormant due to inactivity. Once re-activated all his prior history (deposits/withdrawels) are available on the account. Seeing as he has been unemployed and had no more money in the account he had no use for it. I dont see a problem with this. The fact that he re-activated the account now in order for his cousin to deposit spending money does seems reasonable to me. I dont think he is going to have a lot of spending money, I would say 300-400GBP at most.

4. Remove the fact that he owns cars. I think this is completely irrelavent anyway seeing that I am sponsoring his visit?
Other than immigration things. I am Arab, not from Egypt, but I know Egypt and Sharm el Sheikh where I used to dive back in the days. As you seem acquainted with our culture, let me be frank with you. The time in Egypt was fun and I am happy for you. Especially with the lockdown in the UK, having some fun abroad, meeting people and seeing places is good for mental health. I don't want to hurt your feelings but if you were my sister, I would tell you stop while you can. No damage has been done to your life at this point in time. You have your life in London, your Tier 2, you work for a serious auditing company. There are 4 big ones. If you are there in a senior capacity, it means your career is doing very well. You don't need to get involved more than what you did in a social, economic and cultural situations you know nothing about.
I understand. Its obvious that I have a lot more going for me than what he does and one would beg the question what exactly is it that he has to offer me? But we all know these things aren't that simple...and in all honestly I dont see the problem in wanting to experiece a little bit of happiness. He is unemployed so able to come visit me, and I am employed and able to sponsor his trip. We both get some happiness out of it and in the end we return to being misserable but at least for 1.5 months we were happy. Of course, after that it begins all over again. I dont want to think about the long term struggles ahead, like partner visas etc...My stay in the UK is temporary as it is (Tier 2), being an Australian Citizen and South African we do have options for living together in the future if its not going to be the UK, but again, its WAAAY to early to think about that stuff and in all honesty im not even sure thats what I want, but hte only way to find out is to spend more time with him which is exactly what we are trying to do.

Again, thanks to everyone who commented, I honestly appreciate the time and effort that went into it.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:36 am

Let me also just state the following:

He has NEVER EVER asked me for a single penny. In fact, while we were on holiday him and his cousin would often pick up the bill and pay for things. I literally had to fight with them in order to pay half. Even though they dont earn a lot of money, typical middle class, they still didn;t think twice to swipe their credit card in order to pay for things, and to this day neither my friend or his cousin has ever asked me for a penny.

I've done a long way in my life and I would like to think that I am a good judge or character. One thing I know for a fact is that I am not being taken for a ride here. Like I said, I am the one who invited him and I am the one who is pushing for him to come and visit. We even had a fight because he was too slow in sorting out his passport and that got me a little bit annoyed with him. He has a very decent life back in Egypt. He lives in a comfortable home with someone who provides financially. He has his car, his computer, his dog...this is enough for some people...

I honestly get how it looks...I guess I am asking for advice on how to frame the application so that it reflects REALITY and not look like some common romantic scam (which btw, I just googled, and seems like bezness is full on with egyptian men).

But honestly, I met his mother, I met his brother & wife at their home, I even visit the cousin at this office at the university (and a very nice office I might add).

They are decent people :cry: I feel very sad that I clearly have done a really bad job at explaining the situation on paper as can be seen by the comments and no doubt the ECO will also see it in this way. I think sometimes people who have pure intent find it hard to see the dark side of things. I'm not feeling sorry for myself but I am super dissapointed and feel really discouraged now.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by secret.simon » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:48 am

brucem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:36 am
I feel very sad that I clearly have done a really bad job at explaining the situation on paper as can be seen by the comments and no doubt the ECO will also see it in this way. I think sometimes people who have pure intent find it hard to see the dark side of things. I'm not feeling sorry for myself but I am super dissapointed and feel really discouraged now.
The idea was not to discourage you, but to give you a more realistic viewpoint of both the circumstance and of what to expect.

Think about it this way. We are (or have been) migrants ourselves and are advising caution based on our reading of your text, the circumstances you have described and previous experiences of people familiar to us. We are sympathetic towards you.

Imagine how it would read/sound to an Entry Clearance Officer who goes through mounds of similar applications regularly and has become either weary or cynical (or both) of them. The Reject stamp & bin beckons and the Reject letter is probably writing itself before they have finished reading the application.

If you really plan to get him to travel to the UK, you'd have to do much better at messaging the circumstances and story.

Alternatively keep in mind that you can always meet with him in Egypt, other Maghreb countries (like Tunisia) or other Mediterranean and European countries who may have a more relaxed approach to visas for Egyptian citizens.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:27 am

Zerubbabel wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:18 pm
Hello,

I don't know where to start.

From the visa point of view, this profile looks very typical for refused applications. I don't recommend he tries as the refusal seems nearly certain here. One thing with visas, is that you don't want to have refusals because they will always create a negative bias against any application lodged in the future. Therefore, it's always a good idea to apply only when there are realistic chances of getting a visa.

Your friend doesn't work, but still he owns 2 cars including a BMW. This means 2 things to any Home Office employee:

- He works cash in hand and doesn't declare to avoid paying taxes (very common in the area)
- He is involved in some illegal trade/business where everything is in cash

1 week for banking history is suspicious.

Attachment to Egypt is nil. A man of his age, needs to show a stable job, a family (wife + children) and some property in order to stand reasonable chances to get a visitor visa.

You can't demonstrate attachment to home country with a photo of 2 cars, a dog and a house where you are allowed to have a bed for free + 1 week banking history. Despite his dedication to the Facebook group, this cannot constitute an incentive to return to Egypt and the group can be managed from anywhere.

He will most certainly get a refusal under paragraph 4.2+

Other than immigration things. I am Arab, not from Egypt, but I know Egypt and Sharm el Sheikh where I used to dive back in the days. As you seem acquainted with our culture, let me be frank with you. The time in Egypt was fun and I am happy for you. Especially with the lockdown in the UK, having some fun abroad, meeting people and seeing places is good for mental health. I don't want to hurt your feelings but if you were my sister, I would tell you stop while you can. No damage has been done to your life at this point in time. You have your life in London, your Tier 2, you work for a serious auditing company. There are 4 big ones. If you are there in a senior capacity, it means your career is doing very well. You don't need to get involved more than what you did in a social, economic and cultural situations you know nothing about.

I have many of these stories and I don't know a single one that ended up well. If yours ends up well, it will be a miracle.
PS: I'm a guy...so we are in a romantic gay relationship, which probably doesn't change much but I guess less likely to look like your typical bezness case.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:38 am

secret.simon wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:48 am
brucem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:36 am
I feel very sad that I clearly have done a really bad job at explaining the situation on paper as can be seen by the comments and no doubt the ECO will also see it in this way. I think sometimes people who have pure intent find it hard to see the dark side of things. I'm not feeling sorry for myself but I am super dissapointed and feel really discouraged now.
The idea was not to discourage you, but to give you a more realistic viewpoint of both the circumstance and of what to expect.

Think about it this way. We are (or have been) migrants ourselves and are advising caution based on our reading of your text, the circumstances you have described and previous experiences of people familiar to us. We are sympathetic towards you.

Imagine how it would read/sound to an Entry Clearance Officer who goes through mounds of similar applications regularly and has become either weary or cynical (or both) of them. The Reject stamp & bin beckons and the Reject letter is probably writing itself before they have finished reading the application.

If you really plan to get him to travel to the UK, you'd have to do much better at messaging the circumstances and story.

Alternatively keep in mind that you can always meet with him in Egypt, other Maghreb countries (like Tunisia) or other Mediterranean and European countries who may have a more relaxed approach to visas for Egyptian citizens.
Hi @secret.simon,

I know the idea was not to discourage me, it was me in the end who asked for opinions. I was pointing out how this harsh reality wakeup call feels like for me. I am honestly very grateful for all the feedback - in fact the feedback may even end up helping me to revise the application and who knows, perhaps by some stroke or miracle we happen to convice the ECO that this is genuine and that he will return to his country.

It is not only his reputation on the line but mine as well. Having done a Tier 5 followed by two Tier 2 visas I would be supid to jeprodise my untarnished immigration status in the UK. As you know, sponsoring someone and providing an underwring puts yourself on the line and if you talk to that up then of course you are liable. The question is how to make this clear in the application because I dont see where this information would fit in, certainly not under Eligibility requirements (v 4.1 - 4.6) ? The immigration rules hardly mentions sponsors so its difficult to know what would be considered irrelevent information.

Thanks again for your msg.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by Frontier Mole » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:07 am

No matter how the application is worded or pictured it is destined to fail. The back story you are preparing / constructing is worthless. It will have zero impact on the visit visa considerations.

Young unemployed people with no means of support, proof of income, income tax records or strong ties to their countries are not likely to get a visit visa.

“Single” males, met on holiday from a number of countries make it there business to forge relationships to gain entry to the UK. It is a very well worn route and rarely has a good outcome. Egypt is one such country and the Home Office is very familiar with holiday romance and the love of your life emotional pulls. Luckily the vast majority of these cases are seen for what they are and that they pose an immigration threat to the UK. This is mainly a Brits abroad scenario so it is not pointed at you because of your nationality.

Bezness is a very real thing and despite your views that this is not the case on the balance of probabilities unfortunately says otherwise. The ECO does not need to take any heed of the representations you are suggesting and can go straight to the crux. No job, no money, no record of income, no prospects, a wealthy target, a minimal amount of time together... it is an endless list of NO’s....

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:34 am

secret.simon wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:54 pm
EDIT: Beaten by @ALKB. Thanks for introducing the forums to the term "bezness".
Likewise.

There was even a
Love scams and ‘bezness
European Parliamentary question and answer.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:23 am

vinny wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:34 am
secret.simon wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:54 pm
EDIT: Beaten by @ALKB. Thanks for introducing the forums to the term "bezness".
Likewise.

There was even a
Love scams and ‘bezness
European Parliamentary question and answer.
Yes, bezness has already been mentioned and like I said, does not apply here. So lets move on as now matter how much you try and harp on this "bezness" thing it does not apply in my case.

There are however other things that do apply, like the list mentioned by @Frontier Mole.

It seems to me that the UKBA process is nothing more than a bureaucratic money making scam. So I guess the UK does not welcome people who have no job and no income, you know, like everyone who just finished school, or even kids that are still in school...better yet, what about students who are currrently enrolled and studying in their home country?

Yes, it appears to me that all of you are right...there is simply no way in hell that this application will be approved....and the reason is not because of HIM or ME but simply because of how this corrupt system works. Don't believe me...well google "Top Secret …. how to get a UK Visa" and read the comments at the bottom of the article...I am truly shocked at what I have just discovered...I wish I discovered this before I spent a week on putting together an application which is likely not even going to receive 10 seconds of consideration.

I am sure a lot of the more "experienced" members on this forum are well aware of what I just said, it would be great if they can be more honest and simply say that sponsoring someone will almost ALWAYS get the application rejected. The UK does not welcome poor, unemployed people...simple as that...If you have money, and if you have an income, then you are welcome, otherwise "give us your visa application money and p*ss-off"

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:41 am

brucem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:23 am
Yes, it appears to me that all of you are right...there is simply no way in hell that this application will be approved....and the reason is not because of HIM or ME but simply because of how this corrupt system works. Don't believe me...well google "Top Secret …. how to get a UK Visa" and read the comments at the bottom of the article...I am truly shocked at what I have just discovered...I wish I discovered this before I spent a week on putting together an application which is likely not even going to receive 10 seconds of consideration.
Did you mean the Former British Ambassador to Lebanon’s article?
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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by THO » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:16 am

You're here Brucem, and by the sounds of it doing very well, so you got a visa? Why should the UK govt allow anyone to turn up just because they want to come here (or in his case you seem to be dragging him here against his will?)

Do you know how many people arrive to the UK and either overstay until they get caught, or just stay illegally? Just read the posts on this very forum, and you can see that so many people are trying to remain here, and with no just reason. They are fighting extradition and this is costing the UK tax payer a lot and the reason why so many genuine people's visa application are rejected.

The truth of your story is not possible for the ECO to determine, and you have no evidence to show that this man will return to Egypt. None, not one shred. He is a prime candidate to abscond as far as they are concerned. So, based on past experience the ECO will now not give any thought to your story telling him that everything will be fine, because they have been duped before so many times. You could be in it too, or you could be being taken for a ride, your logic and so the way you think they should see things is not correct, their logic comes from experience.

I find it hard to stomach when someone on a visa having a happy life here, calls our system corrupt.

I know personally of a girl I worked with years ago, fell for a man from Jamaica while on holiday there, Robert was such a lovely sweet man, she got married to him, got him over and guess what, he was a complete sh1t to her, never worked, and left her when he could.

And, do not forget that the best scams are those where the victim has no clue they are being scammed. He, making you chase him, could be just part of the plan to make you think this is your idea, and he does not want to seem to keen, so you don't think he is just using you for a visa.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by Zerubbabel » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:42 am

The UK does not welcome poor, unemployed people...
Sorry, I didn't know you are a man, I just assumed. But the concept is still the same.

When someone applies under a visitor visa route, they evaluate some objective parameters:

- Does the person work? Is that work stable?
- Is the person economically and socially integrated to his or her country?

These are reference points they use to see if the person is a genuine visitor. A genuine visitor is someone who visits the UK, doesn't try to work or access social services/NHS and leaves at the end.

In this game, I agree with you that someone educated and rich is more likely to show stronger ties to home country and obtain a visa. We don't see people leaving a good economic and social standing in their country to come to the UK on a visitor visa then work illegally in a chicken factory, pick-up fruits or apply for asylum.

But these visitor visas are not an exact science. I have seen doctors with strong social and economic ties to their home country being denied a visitor visa just like that. At the same time, you see nearly daily the mother in law with zero education, never worked, husband passed away, all children living in the UK... getting a visitor visa. There is a part of hit and miss in it and most people find it unfair to some extent.

However, there isn't much debate about a young male from Egypt, no work, no strong economic or family ties, no financial history... This will trigger a near automatic refusal. You can't plead a case like that. All objective parameters are against you here. You can still try to meet in third countries. There are places where he can go without visa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requ ... n_citizens

And you can then meet there. Check if the countries are gay friendly before you go. But that could be an option for you to meet from time to time.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by Frontier Mole » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:09 pm

As an Australian citizen you seem to consider the UK’s view on immigration is corrupt because of your personal wants / views are not being met. I am afraid when the first world countries look at third world countries for immigration purposes it is very much the same across the world.

I feel perhaps you should consider the same set of circumstances being presented to Australian immigration. There is even less of a possibility of a visit visa being granted by your home nation in these circumstances.

You are been driven by emotions and are pushing against your perception of what you deem as fair. There is one thing that immigration law is not governed by or takes much or any recognition of - emotions.

I hope you are able to maintain your romance and your relationship can still flourish.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by brucem » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:05 pm

vinny wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:41 am
brucem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:23 am
Yes, it appears to me that all of you are right...there is simply no way in hell that this application will be approved....and the reason is not because of HIM or ME but simply because of how this corrupt system works. Don't believe me...well google "Top Secret …. how to get a UK Visa" and read the comments at the bottom of the article...I am truly shocked at what I have just discovered...I wish I discovered this before I spent a week on putting together an application which is likely not even going to receive 10 seconds of consideration.
Did you mean the Former British Ambassador to Lebanon’s article?
Indeed...but I was not referring to the article but rather the hundreds of comments exposing the lies in the article. If you read the comments you will see that changes of getting a visit visa approved when you are sponsoring a friend, a sister or parent is NIL, no matter how perfect your application. YOu will see in the comments that some people submitted applications which looked perfect on paper yet all of them were still rejected. Reasons for visits which are legit, like parents attending their childs wedding when the parents have jobs, a house and more back home, ALL rejected.

I am not new to the UKBA system...however this is my first attempt to sponsor someone for a visit, so I have had my fair amount of dealings with the home office, and other offices like the Tribunals...They are corrupt to the core so Im sticking to my opinion that this is nothing but a bureaucratic money making scam.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by Zerubbabel » Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:21 pm

During the last 10 years, I sponsored about 10 different persons from my family to visit the UK.

- 8 were approved.
- 2 were refused as "non genuine visitors".

The ones approved range from 12 to 75 years.

I am still frustrated by the 2 refusals.

So, for most people, the chances are not nil.

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Re: Visitors visa for friend (holiday romance)

Post by ALKB » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:05 pm

brucem wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:23 am

It seems to me that the UKBA process is nothing more than a bureaucratic money making scam. So I guess the UK does not welcome people who have no job and no income, you know, like everyone who just finished school, or even kids that are still in school...better yet, what about students who are currrently enrolled and studying in their home country?
Six month visitor visas aren't really high enough in fees to be a money maker, processing application does actually incur a cost.

What you describe goes for most of the western world. Young, unemployed persons, but specifically men, from third world and developing countries are seen as a high overstay risk because that's what historically happened/still happens.

In some countries it's easier to sponsor someone who would otherwise not be able to get a visitor's visa. In Germany, a German or settled person can go to a specific government office, show their income and accommodation and enter into an official guarantee which encompasses providing food and board to medical expenses not covered by travel insurance and even deportation if it came to that. It's something that can be enforced legally and this is done routinely.

The UK does not have anything like that in place. Invitation letters are well and good but not legally binding. There is no requirement to show travel insurance when applying for a visa, either, just a recommendation to get it, which many don't and then end up with many thousand pounds in debt. So, ECOs look at the bare bones of an application and often err on the side of caution. This even goes for parents of naturalised British nationals who may be from a country that doesn't use bank accounts a lot. Many heartbreaking stories on the forum.
I am not a regulated immigration advisor. I am offering an opinion and not advice.

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