I hope this is right thread, Visit visa refused 320 (7a)

[Graham Weifang]

Hello all,
We have a problem that needs some more brain power than we both have.
If we had any brain power at all, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Here it is.
I am UK citizen, born in UK, lived there all my life.
My girlfriend is Chinese.
We know each other for 2 years now, and have lived together in China for 18 months, this is well documented now.
Bank accounts for both of us, at the same address, etc.

Girlfriend successfully applied for a UK visa in June 2010.
She got 6 months, multi entry.
No overstay of any kind, and we both came back to China.
She also successfully applied for a Shengen visa in June 2010.
No overstay of any kind, and we both went back to UK, then back to China.
We enjoyed holidays in UK and Europe together.

Now she applied for another UK visit visa, however her documents were not entirley correct, and got found out.
In essence, she stopped work for her company at end of December 2010.
The second applied UK visa (middle January 2011) indicated she still worked there.
They phoned her old company, they said she was not working there any more.
Open and shut case.
Wronge, yes we know.
Now she got refused under 320 (7a)

She is now again fully employed in China, and wants to apply for a tourist visa to UK, so we can go together, visit my mum and rest of my family.
All of who she met last time.
However, as there is no mention of 320 (7b) we are very cautious if to even apply, incase she does get once again automatically refused, and given 320 (7b)

We plan to marry in December 2011 ( 6 months time) in China, then apply for a spouse visa.
We really don't want to jeopardize our chance of a spouse visa.

We know we were quite wrong to try with an out of date employment letter, the damage is done.
We are trying to evaluate our next step forward to repair the damage.
I presume she still need apply for a tourist visa, as even though we are engaged, she is not technically "family" yet.
Is this right?
Or do we look at apply for family visa?

Graham

[vinny]

Given 320(7A), she is automatically subject to a 10-year ban under 320(7B), unless 320(7C) is applicable.

Best to apply for a spouse visa after mrriage in China.

[Graham Weifang]

Hi Vinny,

Thanks for the first reply.
Is it really as bad as that?
So do I understand correctly, that at the moment she is not subject to a 10 year ban.
However, if she applies for another tourist visa, then they will not even read the paperwork, just go right on and send her a 320 (7b) ?

Is this correct, or do I missunderstand you?

Graham

[pennylessinindia]

I think you will see every where it warns that false documents will lead to 10 yr ban quite a daft thing to do . Visas for visits will not be allowed for 10 years
But you should be OK if you submit genuine documents when you apply for her settlement .

[vinny]

As bad as that. See also flowchart.

[Graham Weifang]

Hi Vinny,
Thats a terrible flow chart.
Quite difficult to really adjuge the "yes, no, or unless"
I can run through the flow chart, and arrive at 2 outcomes.
No for 320 (7b) and then yes for 320 (7b)
.
I am more puzzled now, however we don't want to risk a visa submission, only to be slapped down.

Perhaps I should ask gf to write email to UKBA, amd detail her concern?
Do you possibly have an email addy, that they read, with out simply hitting the automatic reply button?

Thanks

Graham

[MPH80]

I'm not sure how you get to two outcomes.

She has previously used deception ... so move to the 'unless' box.

But in the unless box is 'used deception MORE than 10 years ago' - since that's an immediate "well - she has done that" *and* she's not applying for spouse settlement (further down) - it follows the unlabelled path.

The offence is clearly demonstrated to a high standard so there's no other altenative path but refusal.

I think you have to accept the 10 year ban until/if you decide to actually marry and she comes here to live.

M.

[mulderpf]

The rules around deception are so serious because using deception is so serious, I don't really understand why you seem surprised by that?

Any way, the only way that she will become exempt from the ban is by marrying a British citizen or a person settled in the UK.

[Graham Weifang]

I'm not sure how you get to two outcomes.

She has previously used deception ... so move to the 'unless' box.

But in the unless box is 'used deception MORE than 10 years ago' - since that's an immediate "well - she has done that" *and* she's not applying for spouse settlement (further down) - it follows the unlabelled path.

The offence is clearly demonstrated to a high standard so there's no other altenative path but refusal.

I think you have to accept the 10 year ban until/if you decide to actually marry and she comes here to live.

M.

.
Hi M.
In the large text box, there is 3 outcomes.
1/ NO
2/ Offence demonstrated , , , , ,
3/ Do not use 320 (7B)
.
Take your pick,,,,,

Graham

[MPH80]

So read the big unless box ...

Overstayed for 28 days or less and left UK voluntarily not at Secretary of State expense
nope
Used deception in an entry clearance application more than 10 years ago
nope - less than 10 years
Left the UK voluntarily more than 12 months ago not at Secretary of State expense
nope
Left the UK voluntarily more than 5 years ago at Secretary of State expense
nope
Was removed or deported from the UK more than 10 years ago
nope
Is now applying for settlement, family reunion or rights of access (320 7C)
nope
Breached immigration laws when under 18 years of age or recognised victim of human trafficking (320 7C)
nope
Was unaware that false documents submitted or false representations made
nope
Previously issued a visa in the knowledge of the immigration breach
nope
Refused further leave as a student only because of out of time application
nope

So that means that the first box hasn't been ruled out because none of the 'unless'es are yes - so you follow the box to "offence demonstrated to a high standard".

Ergo - one possible outcome.

M.

[Graham Weifang]

So read the big unless box ...

So that means that the first box hasn't been ruled out because none of the 'unless'es are yes - so you follow the box to "offence demonstrated to a high standard".

Ergo - one possible outcome.

M.

.
I must me being dim tonight,,,
But why follow the box "offence demonstrated to a high standard".
Why not the "No" box or the "Do Not Use 320 (7b) box.

I am not tring to be difficult, I am genuinly asking why to pick the middle box of the 3.
I am sure it's all going to drop into place soon.

Graham

[mulderpf]

It's a terrible example of a flowchart, that's all. You should be going down to Yes (not via the Unless section), then No, then Yes and you get to Use 320 (7B).

Read the rules which override the flowchart (Part 9 of the rules).

Someone tried to put the rules into a flowchart, but did a terrible job of it - at the end of the day, the law overrides the flowchart regardless of which flow you want to try and use.

[vinny]

Agree!

[Graham Weifang]

Thank you Mulderpf,

That make more sence.

My original question though is,"On the paper she received from UKBA, totally highlighted in blue in my first post, has no mention of 320 (7b)
Simply mentions 320 (7a)

Going back to Vinny's post:
Given 320(7A), she is automatically subject to a 10-year ban under 320(7B), unless 320(7C) is applicable.

So, question, why bother with returning to her a 320 (7a), why not just send her a document with 320 (7b) on it?

Is this flowchart the connection between the receiving of a 320 (7a) and applying again, and ending up with a 320 (7b) ?

So even if all the documents for a subsequent tourist visa were 100% correct, then even the simple act of applying, would result in the immediate issuance of a 320 (7b)

Am I right?

Graham

[vinny]

Their failure to mention 320(7B) for future applications doesn't exempt her from it.

[MPH80]

320(7a) is the rejection for using false documents in the current application

320(7b) is the rejection for using false documents in previous applications within the last 10 years.

So - the answer to your "immediate rejection" question is - yes - it will be.

As Vinny said - just because it's not mentioned, doesn't mean it won't apply.

M.

[Graham Weifang]

Hi Vinny,
Thanks for the link to the UKBA wording.

I have pulled an extract, to which I think is applicable

In your application, (you/name of other person) said [false statement], OR
(you/name of other person) submitted [the documents that are false].
I am satisfied that the [statement/documents] [were/was] false because [reasons].

Under para 320 (7a) of the Immigration Rules a person must automatically be refused entry clearance if false representations or documents are used (whether or not material to the application and whether or not to the applicants knowledge) or material facts are not disclosed in relation to the application. A false representation for these purposes is a lie, or a false statement in a visa application, made either orally or in writing. A false document includes:

· a genuine document which has been altered or tampered with;
· a counterfeit document (one that is completely false);
· a genuine document which is being used by an impostor;
· a genuine document which has been fraudulently obtained or issued;
· a genuine document which contains a falsified or counterfeit visa endorsement.

I am satisfied, to a higher balance of probabilities, that false representations in the form of xxxxxx or false documents in the form of xxxxxx were made/produced in your visa application. The reasons I have reached this conclusion are contained in a document verification report, held on file. I therefore refuse your application.

You should note that because this application for entry clearance has been refused under paragraph 320(7A) of the Immigration Rules, any future applications may also be refused under paragraph 320(7B) of the Immigration Rules, (subject to the requirements set out in paragraph 320 (7C)).

A refusal under paragraph 320 (7B) of the Immigration Rules attracts an automatic refusal period of up to 10 years. The period starts from the date of the previous event in which the deception or submission of falsified documents or information was employed.
.
I have highlighted the interesting text in red, and further highlighted by underline.

They use the worg "MAY" so this again is not clear black and white.
There still appears to be a possibility, albeit small, that providing all her documentation is watertight, and awritten explanation is offered in an attached letter for the prevoius error, then a tourist visa could still be issued.

We have looked at it an two views,

1/ We pay the visa fee, and they issue her with a visa.
2/ We pay the visa fee, and they return her visa application with a 320 (7B) so we wasted the visa fee.

In December time, we will marry in China, and it appears that the 320 (7A) and any possible 320 (7B) are not to be used by UKBA in a settlement visa application.

Sure we are on the thin end of the wedge, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, we just lose the visa fee.
Hardly the end of the world for us.

Is there any previous history of a visa being issued after a 320(7A) ?

Graham

[Greenie]

They say may because of the exceptions in 320 7c. She is highly likely to be subject to 7b when applying for a visit visa. Use of false documents is treated very seriously. If you want to try again that's up to you but you might find yourself getting into a mess. Did mention your relationship in her previous application?

[pennylessinindia]

You should note that because this application for entry clearance has been refused under paragraph 320(7A) of the Immigration Rules, any future applications may also be refused under paragraph 320(7B) of the Immigration Rules, (subject to the requirements set out in paragraph 320 (7C)).

I assume that the may gives the opportunity for someone to show there was an error too. But in your case you have clearly used deception so do not think you can benefit from a may.



But as you say you feel you have nothing to loose well there is nothing we can say to stop you applying I think.