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Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

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ekbe01
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Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:02 am

Dear Forum, I'm looking for your help in deciding on a visa category.

My visa history: Tier 4 - Tier1 (Graduate Entr) - Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) which expires in about a year.

Current situation:
- I'm not sure I will be able to extend my Entrepreneur visa so I'm looking into Family visas,
- I've lived with my partner (UK citizen) for less than a year, we are not married and have a child.

My understanding is that I am not eligible to apply for leave to remain as a partner because:
- we are not married,
- we've been living together for less than 2 years (and my current visa expires before we reach 2 years),
- we're not engaged to be married and would like not to marry if possible.

Is this correct? If so, will I be able to apply for leave to remain as a parent?
- I'm not a sole parent,
- the child is not living with my partner separately from me.
Again, I'm not sure I qualify.

Also, a question about applying for ILR later.
Applying for ILR as a partner: after I've lived in the UK for 5 years (I understand that years on previous visas will count towards 5 years).
Applying for ILR as a parent: after I've lived in the UK with a family visa as a parent for 5 years (so previous years will NOT count).
Is this correct?

Thank you!

vinny
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by vinny » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:54 am

Unfortunately, you cannot apply for leave to remain as a parent, if E-LTRPT.2.3. fails.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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ekbe01
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:42 am

Thank you. Understand.
I also understand I cannot apply for leave to remain as a partner, is that right? Any solution apart from getting married?

ekbe01
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ILR as a partner - 60 months

Post by ekbe01 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:43 am

Hello,
Section E-ILRP: Eligibility for indefinite leave to remain as a partner
E-ILRP.1.3. (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the applicant must, at the date of application, have completed a continuous period of either:
(a) at least 60 months in the UK with:
(i) leave to enter granted on the basis of entry clearance as a partner granted under paragraph D-ECP.1.1.; or
(ii) limited leave to remain as a partner granted under paragraph D-LTRP.1.1.; or
(iii) a combination of (i) and (ii);
Question: will my time on Tier 1 before the partner status count towards 60 months? (e.g. 2 years as a partner and prev 3 years as Tier1E)?
Thank you!

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CR001
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Re: ILR as a partner - 60 months

Post by CR001 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:32 am

ekbe01 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:43 am
Hello,
Section E-ILRP: Eligibility for indefinite leave to remain as a partner
E-ILRP.1.3. (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the applicant must, at the date of application, have completed a continuous period of either:
(a) at least 60 months in the UK with:
(i) leave to enter granted on the basis of entry clearance as a partner granted under paragraph D-ECP.1.1.; or
(ii) limited leave to remain as a partner granted under paragraph D-LTRP.1.1.; or
(iii) a combination of (i) and (ii);
Question: will my time on Tier 1 before the partner status count towards 60 months? (e.g. 2 years as a partner and prev 3 years as Tier1E)?
Thank you!
No it will not. You need 60 months as partner visa to qualify for ILR based on 5 years residence, You cannot combine PBS route with family route visa to make up 5 years.
Char (CR001 not Casa)
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ekbe01
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:18 am

Thank you.
Last question remained from the above - do I qualify for a partner visa? Thanks )

vinny
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by vinny » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:32 am

ekbe01 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:42 am
Any solution apart from getting married?
You also have to satisfy the other requirements.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

ekbe01
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:49 am

vinny wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:32 am
You also have to satisfy the other requirements.
I will satisfy them, thank you.

The question now is whether I can apply at all as a partner in a situation when we live together for less than 2 years, not married/engaged, have a child and clearly intend to continue living together.
It's clear that I can not apply as a parent of a UK child.

And whether it worth it at all or better stay on Tier1E (with all its hassle) and not to lose years already spent in the country counted towards ILR )

Thank you!

Kwipeh
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by Kwipeh » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:52 am

ekbe01 wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:49 am
vinny wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:32 am
You also have to satisfy the other requirements.
I will satisfy them, thank you.

The question now is whether I can apply at all as a partner in a situation when we live together for less than 2 years, not married/engaged, have a child and clearly intend to continue living together.
It's clear that I can not apply as a parent of a UK child.

And whether it worth it at all or better stay on Tier1E (with all its hassle) and not to lose years already spent in the country counted towards ILR )

Thank you!
You may have to go the FLR (FP) route eventually. Have you had a look at that?

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by Kwipeh » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 am

Oops. Looks like you ARE speaking of FLR (FP). It figures.

I'd say apply as a partner and in a cover letter explain why you do not meet the requirements of having lived together for two years. The HO is run by human beings. If your case has strong merits, I don't think it will be chucked into the bin without proper consideration. Partner route is your best bet, to be honest.

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by physicskate » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:04 am

Kwipeh wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 am
Oops. Looks like you ARE speaking of FLR (FP). It figures.

I'd say apply as a partner and in a cover letter explain why you do not meet the requirements of having lived together for two years. The HO is run by human beings. If your case has strong merits, I don't think it will be chucked into the bin without proper consideration. Partner route is your best bet, to be honest.
The HO is not run by human beings - it is run by tick boxes. Tick the box, get the visa. Over the years, I have seen unmarried partner visas (which in effect is what you are after) denied for being just a few days short of two years of provable cohabitation in a relationship akin to marriage.

If you don't meet the requirements and apply for the visa anyway, you are at risk of being accused of submitting frivolous applications. Even if the application is simply rejected, you will be unlikely to win an appeal (which would probably be an out of country appeal anyway).

Either continue with your T1E or get married.

ekbe01
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Thanks very much to all.
Kwipeh wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 am
I'd say apply as a partner and in a cover letter explain why you do not meet the requirements of having lived together for two years.
Well )) There are formal requirements, and Home Office is a yes or no machine, I'm afraid... I was rather looking for a gap in the requirements OR other ways that will be accepted by HO to prove that the relationship is genuine.
physicskate wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:04 am
Either continue with your T1E or get married.
Thanks, that's pretty much the result of my research as well. Grr

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by Kwipeh » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:29 am

physicskate wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:04 am
Kwipeh wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 am
Oops. Looks like you ARE speaking of FLR (FP). It figures.

I'd say apply as a partner and in a cover letter explain why you do not meet the requirements of having lived together for two years. The HO is run by human beings. If your case has strong merits, I don't think it will be chucked into the bin without proper consideration. Partner route is your best bet, to be honest.
The HO is not run by human beings - it is run by tick boxes. Tick the box, get the visa. Over the years, I have seen unmarried partner visas (which in effect is what you are after) denied for being just a few days short of two years of provable cohabitation in a relationship akin to marriage.

If you don't meet the requirements and apply for the visa anyway, you are at risk of being accused of submitting frivolous applications. Even if the application is simply rejected, you will be unlikely to win an appeal (which would probably be an out of country appeal anyway).

Either continue with your T1E or get married.
Thing is, I didn't 'tick all the boxes' - I didn't qualify for a partner visa, or a parent visa. Even though we'd been together for years, I had never lived with my partner beyond a few months at a time, I had only a few items of correspondence for myself and my daughter. I came in on a visitor's visa and had only been here a few months before putting in an FLR FP application. I wrote a cover letter and provided loads of evidence to support all my explanations. Whatever I did not have evidence for, I explained in writing and hoped against hope that good sense would prevail.

There were other issues that presented as insurmountable obstacles quite alright (which perhaps were responsible for the positive response I got), but I was told by many (some here and many offline) that it was highly likely I would be refused and then perhaps I would get an in-country right of appeal since my British daughter was involved and her well being was at stake.

I read about cases similar to mine, where the applicants were refused even though they ticked more boxes than I did. Before I picked a solicitor, I spoke to several who told me "nah, this won't work". I said the same thing to them - it might be complicated alright, but there really isn't any other way around it as things stand, and with ample explanation any sensible HO staff who handles the case should see the merits thereof. But I was refused representation by three solicitors back to back (because I insisted I would not tell lies and re-create my life's circumstances just so I could get further leave to remain as a parent) until I settled for one who upon hearing my situation, said to me, "the HO staff are human. Just be hundred percent honest and let them see the merits of your case". That was why I picked that solicitor. Because her ethics chimed with my principles.

Thankfully, I got my visa in 6 months, far quicker than I was expecting, based on my initial thoughts about the HO as well as timelines of other people whose cases were nowhere as complicated as mine, or at least didn't seem so.

I still believe that complete honesty is key. If you explain, and give good enough reasons why you don't tick all the boxes, as well as state how a refusal would affect any child in the picture, you may get the visa. I may be wrong, but I think it's worth a stab.

ekbe01, good luck whatever you decide. Crossing my fingers for you.

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by physicskate » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:24 am

That's great for you - but your case sounds VERY different to the OP. It might be that you 'slipped through' and your insurmountable obstacles proved enough. The OP 'doesn't want to carry on with their current visa' - these are NOT insurmountable obstacles as far as we know.

And in my humble opinion 'not wanting to get married' is not a good enough excuse. I've seen many many many people who were in genuine relationships but who maybe got married sooner than they would have liked because of immigration. They are already here legally and on a visa that allows settlement (provided the conditions are met) - already a VERY different situation to you!!!

I would have said you had about a 5-10% chance of getting the visa. Just because you were successful does NOT mean that everyone in your circumstances would have been!!! So it is incorrect to advise people to go the same route as you were granted leave outside the rules, because the rules are not often broken.

ekbe01
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Thank you very much, Kwipeh. What an amazing story, congratulations! When did you get your visa?
I'm not prepared to risk with a rejection, and my feeling is that the chance is very high. Also, switching to a new visa category will reset the clock for my 5y ILR. Looks like the best strategy is to proceed with my current T1E and use family visas only if my application is rejected (I may have 2 years of living together by then).
Thanks to the forum, a most useful place to discuss visas and immigration.
K

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by Kwipeh » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:16 am

I'm not sure where I implied that my getting a visa through a certain route meant that everyone else would get it if they went that route.

I'm also not sure where I insisted the OP did anything at all.

What I do know is I wrote about the HO being run by humans, which you refuted - and if you're honest it was as subjective an opinion as mine was. My response to your refutal was my case history which was to highlight the subjectivity of your opinion of the HO being run by tick boxes. I'm not sure how a subjective opinion from a stranger on the internet comes across as insistence on going a certain route.

I'm therefore not sure what the need was for peppering your responses with caps and exclamation marks.

And LOL at your suggestion that I might have simply "slipped through". Okay, we'll take your word for it. Tee hee.

At the end of the day, the OP will do what they feel is best for them to do. They're not going to say "oh Kwipeh gave this opinion therefore I must just do what she has said". I feel like I can trust them to know better.

You still have my best wishes whatever you decide, OP. And do keep us posted. I will post my timeline in the relevant section when I have the time to do it neatly.

Peace and love.
physicskate wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:24 am
That's great for you - but your case sounds VERY different to the OP. It might be that you 'slipped through' and your insurmountable obstacles proved enough. The OP 'doesn't want to carry on with their current visa' - these are NOT insurmountable obstacles as far as we know.

And in my humble opinion 'not wanting to get married' is not a good enough excuse. I've seen many many many people who were in genuine relationships but who maybe got married sooner than they would have liked because of immigration. They are already here legally and on a visa that allows settlement (provided the conditions are met) - already a VERY different situation to you!!!

I would have said you had about a 5-10% chance of getting the visa. Just because you were successful does NOT mean that everyone in your circumstances would have been!!! So it is incorrect to advise people to go the same route as you were granted leave outside the rules, because the rules are not often broken.

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by kamsi » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:20 am

Hi, I have been following this forum for some years now and I have had to comment on a few occasions. I came across this post and I felt I should post a comment, my own experience might give you some hope. Some times you have to go with your instinct even when people say that it can not be done. Just over 2 years ago I was in a slight similar situation, people on this forum said I could not apply for leave to remain on the basis of my child (British citizen). Here is my situation:

I was married to a British citizen, we were married for years. At the time I had no leave to remain (overstayer), I made an application on the basis of our relationship and after many years I was granted 2.5 years leave to remain under the 10 year route to settlement. I then switched into the 5 year route to enable me qualify for ILR after 5 years. While I was still on the first 2.5 years leave to remain, my partner and I separated. We had no children. Shortly after the separation I started a new relationship with a British national and luckily within two months she became pregnant. My ex-wife contacted the HO that we were no longer living together and the HO emailed me a curtailment letter informing me that my leave had been curtailed and gave me two months to either leave the country or apply for visa in my own right. When the letter was received my child was only 2 months old. Before reaching the date I was given to leave the country I applied for leave to remain on the basis of the new relationship and also on the basis of my British citizen child. Many people on this forum told me that I did not qualify for the following reasons: That my partner and I had only been living together for a few months, that my child has just been born, that I live with my partner and therefore did not have sole parental responsibility.

I made the application myself. I wrote a detailed letter explaining my circumstances to the HO. I explained the importance of a child having the involvement of both parents as she grows up. I printed some things on the internet where David Cameron and David Lammy (MPs) talked about building a strong society and the importance of black men being involved in raising their children. I sent off the application and within 8 weeks the application was decided and I was granted 2.5 years leave to remain under the 10 year route to settlement.

I would say that you should make the application on the basis of the relationship with your partner, although you do not qualify under this route because you do not meet the requirement, but in a cover letter explain your situation. You should also mention your British child and how important it is to maintain the family unit that you have formed with your partner. Include your child as part of the application, what it does is that even if it is refused, you have raised a human right argument and that means you would be given in-country right of appeal. Also another thing you can do is, if you have nearly completed 2 years of cohabitation, if the application has not yet been decided when you complete 2 years, you can vary the application to partner route. Whatever happens, you will still have the visa that you presently have. This application will not cancel the visa that you have.

When the HO is considering your application, they look at the rule and whether you meet them, if you don't meet them, then they consider the application outside the rule. This is where you child comes in.

I have attached letters that came with my leave to remain with this post, just to let you know that there is a way! I hope you find this helpful.
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physicskate
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by physicskate » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:06 am

Congrats! Again - very different situation to the OP.

My opinion is no more valid that kwipeh's (obviously). I only base mine in being on this board for over 6 years, reading and generally quoting the actual immigration rules and highlighting these rules and customs to hundreds of people over the years (which does bring a certain amount of experience). Obviously, this is a different experience to kwipeh and every other poster. I encourage people to abide by the immigration rules. But there will always be the odd person who is granted leave OUTSIDE the rules. I am not basing what I say on my own personal visa experience (and the other posters appear to be basing their advise on their own single individual circumstances without referring to the differences with he OPs situation).

If the forum is peppered with only positive outcomes of these actually quite unusual cases, it gives false hope to many and encourages people to apply for visas for which they have no real chance of success. I would always only advise people to apply for routes within the immigration rules as we are able to more accurately predict the outcome. The op has already stated they are not willing to take any risks of rejection and do not want the inherent risks of applying outside the rules.

ekbe01
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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by ekbe01 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:17 pm

Kwipeh and Kamsi, thank you very much for sharing your stories. Fully agree with being honest in the application and presenting the real situation. My feeling is that I will be able to get a partner's visa with due explanations. But I still have over a year on my Tier1E visa so I will give it a try. If it doesn't work, I'll apply as a partner, there will be no other choice.
Thanks again to all of you.

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Re: Applying as a partner vs applying as a parent

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:36 am

physicskate wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:06 am
Congrats! Again - very different situation to the OP.

My opinion is no more valid that kwipeh's (obviously). I only base mine in being on this board for over 6 years, reading and generally quoting the actual immigration rules and highlighting these rules and customs to hundreds of people over the years (which does bring a certain amount of experience). Obviously, this is a different experience to kwipeh and every other poster. I encourage people to abide by the immigration rules. But there will always be the odd person who is granted leave OUTSIDE the rules. I am not basing what I say on my own personal visa experience (and the other posters appear to be basing their advise on their own single individual circumstances without referring to the differences with he OPs situation).

If the forum is peppered with only positive outcomes of these actually quite unusual cases, it gives false hope to many and encourages people to apply for visas for which they have no real chance of success. I would always only advise people to apply for routes within the immigration rules as we are able to more accurately predict the outcome. The op has already stated they are not willing to take any risks of rejection and do not want the inherent risks of applying outside the rules.
You can take it as glass half full or glass half empty. Neither is right or wrong - just an individual's approach.

But basing opinions on this board will almost always lead to a negative perception. The simple reason is that most people find this board and post here only when they run into difficulties. So, by nature, you will have more refusals/problems on this board. The number of people posting here would be very small proportion of the overall number of immigrants.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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