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Older dependent relatives

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arifzx
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Post by arifzx » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:22 pm

Yes Home office notes in file reads that my parents met para 317, however case file acknowledges that they were granted also on private life setup here in UK for last 7 years. All family members are British citizens save my parents.
The solicitors put in 17 of these applications for dependent parents, under transitional rules and all of them got refused except ours. The solicitors also mentioned that 90% of all the rest of the applicant were above 65 and did not have to meet the exceptional compassionate test, but still got refused with no right of appeal.
Each case has its own merit, our was different to a usual applicant in this category as my parents had no association with any other country except UK. They lived all their lives in Middle East, but their rights and stay their got compromised when due to my fathers redundancy their visas got canceled.
Usually an elderly dependant would come here from their home country where they can still reside and would be expected to Have family and house, even if they are 65+

kuruvi
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Post by kuruvi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:17 pm

The solicitors also mentioned that 90% of all the rest of the applicant were above 65 and did not have to meet the exceptional compassionate test, but still got refused with no right of appeal.


I thought applications under 317 had right of appeal. Any reason why they were not given right of appeal.

Thanks

arifzx
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Post by arifzx » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:55 pm

Yes you are right. The right to appeal a refusal is granted if the previous leave to remain is still valid at the time of application. Most cases in this category either did not have valid leave to remain or it ran out. Like my parents leave to remain ran out whilst HO dealt with the application. My uncles application was refused in the same category with no right to appeal, he had a valid limited leave to remain. The solicitor are asking for a right to appeal, or else will consider JR. Also with the new rules in place, the solicitors advised me that non of his applicant were granted a right to appeal refusals. So they will be considering JR or await removal to take the cases to high court.

kuruvi
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Post by kuruvi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:57 pm

Thanks arifzx for sharing the information.

kahn
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Post by kahn » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:07 pm

[quote="arifzx"] My uncles application was refused in the same category with no right to appeal, he had a valid limited leave to remain. The solicitor are asking for a right to appeal, or else will consider JR.
Thanks Arifzx. This is our dilemma - what are pros and cons of it ? Has your uncle decided against extension of their valid limited leave, in favor of pursuing the long expensive route of JR/Appeal ?

Trickytok
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Post by Trickytok » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:17 pm

Congrats!
Last edited by Trickytok on Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

arifzx
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Post by arifzx » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:45 am

All treatment privately, apart from some visits to A£E, where I even offered to pay, however never charged to date.
Nhs registration and availing treatment while not entitled= refusal and prosecution.

kahn
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Post by kahn » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:32 am

arifzx wrote:All treatment privately, apart from some visits to A£E, where I even offered to pay, however never charged to date.
Nhs registration and availing treatment while not entitled= refusal and prosecution.
To me it is irrelevant . If NHS is a problem it could be sorted by private medical insurance but then why should be paying top rate tax ? On my part I would be happy with NHS replaced with private medical insurance. -whether NHS is or is not an entitlement is a different issue. for that matter whole benefits arguement is a different issue . The real issue here is how much should state manage the family when visa of dependent parents is subject to no recourse to public funds in the first place..

And when you say,
"The solicitors put in 17 of these applications for dependent parents, under transitional rules and all of them got refused except ours. The solicitors also mentioned that 90% of all the rest of the applicant were above 65 and did not have to meet the exceptional compassionate test, but still got refused with no right of appeal.Each case has its own merit"
You are very kindly highlighting a problem - something is wrong if so many people got it wrong . visa fee alone was £1850 per person + legal expenses. There be a reasonable expectation of what the lawful result would be . A beautiful premise of our common law in England is that everybody is expected to know the law themselves or through their lawyers - if they are say 80% right in understanding what the law is maybe it is reasonable, just I would say- but 16 out of 17 wrong and with legal advice ! - something is wrong - if it was so confusing about old Rules that seemed much simpler - what about the new Rules - That kind of visa fee of after tax earnings in these days of economy , being paid by a financially dependent going waste- total waste - it is cruel - is it not ? I ask all those lobbying about this - All - old and new - where is the fault I ask the experts please can BritCits please note ?

arifzx
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Post by arifzx » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:27 am

You are right Kahn. This category is tricky and the law associated with it is unexplained in real terms. Their is no clear definition of the requirement.
I have struggled with the old law for 6 years myself. Altogether for the 2 applications for my parents in this category I had spent £15K in fees, solicitor bills, barrister fees. Almost another £30K in private medical bills over the last 4 years.
Private medical insurance is irrelevant for elderly dependants as it doesnot cover any pre existing conditions, assuming they have medical conditions.
Also their are several determinations online fr applicants rejected ILR as dependant relatives because they were availing NHS service whilst not entitled for it. As one of the requirement of this category is that the dependant can be financially looked after with no recourse to public funds.
Anyways I agree with your points raised.

doc_S
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Post by doc_S » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:28 pm

Does Surinder Singh Judgment apply to elderly dependants? Is there a minimum period required to live and work in a member state before exercising this EEA treaty? Can someone work there on temporary basis (leaving rest of family in UK) but living there and get parents visa for that country and later EEA family permit for them? Which EEA country is best for that?

On the other hand current elderly dependant visa rules needs to be challenged by someone sooner or later. These inhumane rules can not survive.

kahn
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Post by kahn » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:31 pm

arifzx wrote:You are right Kahn. This category is tricky and the law associated with it is unexplained in real terms. Their is no clear definition of the requirement.
I have struggled with the old law for 6 years myself. Altogether for the 2 applications for my parents in this category I had spent £15K in fees, solicitor bills, barrister fees. Almost another £30K in private medical bills over the last 4 years.
Private medical insurance is irrelevant for elderly dependants as it doesnot cover any pre existing conditions, assuming they have medical conditions.
Also their are several determinations online fr applicants rejected ILR as dependant relatives because they were availing NHS service whilst not entitled for it. As one of the requirement of this category is that the dependant can be financially looked after with no recourse to public funds.
Anyways I agree with your points raised.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it is not the category that is tricky something else may be tricky - It is a permissible category in a vast majority of civilized countries of the world- -
Great Britain is for centuries, the mother of modern civilization, many of them migrated from Britain to the new world .
yes there are ques, yet there are reasonably straight forward Rules existing in USA, Canada , Australia , New Zealand -
and in the old world of Europe now we even have Surinder Singh route .

I voted Conservative,but at times ponder about a comment of Gordon that did a significant damage to him among all the reasons Labour lost the last election, I don't know what to say- what did he say? ? ..

Immigration is what it is, and is not what it is not. But why make Rules no one can meet or understand? Why not come clean and ban the category, altogether- if that is the treatment we actually think the elderly deserve.
It is cruel - very cruel. isn't it!
"spent £15K in fees, solicitor bills, barrister fees".
Why are solicitors and barristers doing it to these poor, elderly vulnerable humans? if it is not more than 80% of the time they have probability to get it right then is it not bad professional advice to make an application knowing it is bound to be refused.
But, if solicitors launched these applications only hoping that after refusal by Home Office, later on in the courts over 80% of appeals were successful, then why wrong decisions in that proportion were made which were bound to be turned down by judiciary in the end, if this position is correct - is it all fair? what is going on?
As for the claim of "the most exceptional compassionate circumstances" as it was termed in 317 (i)(e), it was very rarely met both at Home Office and at courts. If a medical condition evident from "£30K in private medical bills in 4 years" , could not sufficiently arouse a compassion in the mind of the caseworker -and compassion is part of law -
then for a common simpleton person what was this provision of compassion in the Rules all about ?
And now we have new Rules - many notches over and above- "the most exceptional compassionate circumstances" when 317 (i)(e) was rarely met what is the purpose, if no one can meet it ?
This is one of the reasons they are celebrating anniversary on 9 July 2013
by a protest , I am told- let's see how many turn out - to show sincerity.

LankanFunkin
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Post by LankanFunkin » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:17 am

At the recent debate in June, someone very appropriately called this a "ban masquerading as a rule," and thats spot on.

I will be attending the protest on Jul 9.

Kahn, arifzx - are you guys going to come to the protest as well?

arifzx
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Post by arifzx » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:39 am

Hi Lankanfunkin,

Thanks for the invite. Although we are relieved after succeeding in our case, I would like to be part of the protest and will come. We have been made to suffer for 6 years to succeed on something which should be our automatic right.

LankanFunkin
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Post by LankanFunkin » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:47 pm

Great to have you on board for this Arifzx! Here's a link to the demonstration. Please sign up!

http://britcits.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/ ... ction.html

kahn
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Post by kahn » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:03 pm

LankanFunkin wrote:At the recent debate in June, someone very appropriately called this a "ban masquerading as a rule," and thats spot on.

I will be attending the protest on Jul 9.

Kahn, arifzx - are you guys going to come to the protest as well?
Yes most definitely

LankanFunkin
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Post by LankanFunkin » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:42 pm

Great to hear Kahn. Please see the link above on where to find the details. Please also ask your MP for a meeting - that link has a template etc to make it easier!

Anndeep
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Older dependent relatives

Post by Anndeep » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:17 pm

Has anyone applied for older dependent relatives visa based on new rules and has the application been successful? What is the latest on the new rules? I am concerned as I would soon like to bring my older dependent relative to the UK but very concerned to apply.

kuruvi
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:11 am

Post by kuruvi » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:15 pm

Has anyone applied post July 09, 2012 still waiting for a decision. It has been nearly 14 months since we applied and still waiting.

kuruvi
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:11 am

Approved after a long wait

Post by kuruvi » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:24 pm

We received a news today from solicitor that my parents application been approved.

We have waited over 14 months. We are happy that the wait is worth. It is a great news for us.

Thank you for all your advise and help

patel555
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Location: uk

Re: Approved after a long wait

Post by patel555 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:20 pm

Hi,

Are you apply in new law means after july-2012. pl. some high light about your succesfully story

kuruvi
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Post by kuruvi » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:02 pm

We applied under the old rules. The applications were made in July 2012 and we waited over 14 months to get a decision.

My father was 66 years old and mother was 63 at the time of application. My father is a diabetic and developed eye related problems for which he underwent to laser surgeries. It was paid privately while he was in UK.


We made the applications in the UK when they visited us due to changes in family. We had to rush the applications because of rule change. My mother has 2 relatives but my father doesn't.

We submitted evidence for financial dependency by bank statements showing over 3 years of transactions. Letters from relatives that they have their own family. A letter from my father's former employer confirming he doesn't receive any pension or other money.

The application was very detailed and the evidence submitted was huge.

This information may not help for the new applicants.

Thanks

Andy83
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??

Post by Andy83 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:31 pm

Cannot believe that normally wait for within 6 months,but over double time for it.

kuruvi
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Post by kuruvi » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:38 pm

Yes, it has taken long but there are (over 300) applications still pending after 14 months.

Andy83
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?!

Post by Andy83 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:22 pm

Oh???what you mean there's still 300 olderly application?shocking

kahn
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Post by kahn » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:20 am

kuruvi wrote:We applied under the old rules. The applications were made in July 2012 and we waited over 14 months to get a decision.

My father was 66 years old and mother was 63 at the time of application. My father is a diabetic and developed eye related problems for which he underwent to laser surgeries. It was paid privately while he was in UK.


We made the applications in the UK when they visited us due to changes in family. We had to rush the applications because of rule change. My mother has 2 relatives but my father doesn't.

We submitted evidence for financial dependency by bank statements showing over 3 years of transactions. Letters from relatives that they have their own family. A letter from my father's former employer confirming he doesn't receive any pension or other money.

The application was very detailed and the evidence submitted was huge.

This information may not help for the new applicants.

Thanks
Congrats - they met the Rules and got it , that is it - so simple. You did not loose anything waiting - had no right to live here otherwise - from a visit visa, you would appreciate. Thanks for sharing decision

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