Immigration Status of Baby - Hypothetical scenario

If a person on a WP or HSMP fathers a child in the UK and the mother is a student (or say an overstayer) and the couple are not married...what would be the procedure for getting a WP depedant visa stamped in the baby's ppt?

Obviously the birth certificate will include the father and mothers name however when applying for the transfer of the WP depedant visa to the baby's ppt - the couple would not like HO to know the mothers immigration status - as this will cmplicate the situation (is that possible)..


i.e complete form SET (O) and include only the fathersw ppt and baby's birth certificate - would this be acceptable?

I see no way of how to avoid disclosing the mother's name.

tnavon wrote:I see no way of how to avoid disclosing the mother's name.

Mothers name is disclosed on both birth certificate and SET (O) form. No need to submit mothers ppt though!. What happens if the Dad is a 'single' father

Is the father responsible for the day to day care of the child? If yes, you can add the child as a dependent. When you get your ILR, you can apply for his British citizenship registration skipping the ILR status.

tnavon wrote:Is the father responsible for the day to day care of the child? If yes, you can add the child as a dependent. When you get your ILR, you can apply for his British citizenship registration skipping the ILR status.

TVT,

Thought so - now we are talking on the same wavelength

Soon we will have a Doppler effect.

My understanding of the current Nationality Act and accompanying regulations is that registration in the circumstances described would not be possible as the parents are not married and the father is the one who has legal status. We are looking at a discretionary grant here - I suspect as a minimum a statutory declaration of 'abondonment' by the mother and substantial demonstration of the father's day to day care of the child including taking substantial decisions in their lives.

It will make life easier (including the claim of various benefits) if the HSMP/WP holder subject to the relevant relationship supporting an application for FLR as a spouse/ unmarried partner as the case may be. Expect a 'detailed dig' into the facts by the Home Office either way. By the way SET(O) is for ILR - is this the pending application by the father?

I thought that the fact the child is illegitimate is immaterial now.

tnavon wrote:I thought that the fact the child is illegitimate is immaterial now.

TVT - what do you mean by illegimate child?



Kayalami,

I thought SET(O) form would be appropriate even before ILR is granted....


Hypothetical scenario - however it is based on previous knowledge -

I have come accross someone who was granted ILR and then applied for naturalisation of himself and the child - however the mother was 'out of status' - so her ppt was not submitted . The mothers name obviously apperas on the birth certficate.

Granting leave to enter or remain

Where all the requirements of Paragraph 305 are met

A child may be granted indefinite leave to enter or remain if at least one of his parents has been or is being granted indefinite leave, if either parent is a British citizen or has the right of abode, or if the parental rights and duties of the child have been permanently vested in a local authority.

Illegitimate is the (Victorian) legal term for a child whose parents were not married at the time of his birth.

tnavon wrote:I thought that the fact the child is illegitimate is immaterial now.

Nope - still a requirement for this category of application unless on the basis of destitution (local authority care) / statelessness.

Chess wrote:I thought SET(O) form would be appropriate even before ILR is granted....

Nope - in the circumstances you describe the child cannot be granted ILR - only FLR through the relevant parent unless included in an ILR application. Given the legal parent is on HSMP/WP then this (use of Set O) is moot.

Chess wrote:Granting leave to enter or remain

Where all the requirements of Paragraph 305 are met

A child may be granted indefinite leave to enter or remain if at least one of his parents has been or is being granted indefinite leave, if either parent is a British citizen or has the right of abode, or if the parental rights and duties of the child have been permanently vested in a local authority.

None of these apply to the child as per your post so they are irrelevant. Note that legitimacy is a requirement for the British Nationality Act (exception is the registration of adults born overseas to British Born mothers prior to enactment of the BNA). The Immigration Rules however consider illegitimate children but there are supporting criteria such as destitution/ abondment and daily care of the child for the grant of leave to remain. You can't pick and mix various parts of the rules and the BNA for this one am afraid. It would be best for the mother to get legit - is marriage an option here?

Kayalami,

That is a rather interesting discussion - so basically a single unmarried HSMP/WP holder should investigate the 'immigration status' of the would be mother/father prior to thinking of having babies. This would be hursh!

Now let us to try to get to the bottom of this...... If I (Chess Esq) say on a WP or HSMP got jiggy with (Lady beautifull) and we had a baby (Baby Rastafarian) illegitimately (unmarried). .......

What would be the easiest/legal way of getting Baby Rastafarian travel documents without the immigration status of lady beautifull coming into play???.

Can I apply for HSMP/WP depedant visa for Baby Rastafarian on the FLR (O) without including the mothers ppt. i.e submit my ppt with HSMP/WP visa,
birth certificates and NHS card.

Kaya, look at this way. If lady beautifull decided to leave me with the kid - do you mean that I would never be able to sort out the kids travel documents



......to be continued (after reciept of initial response)

It would be best for the mother to get legit - is marriage an option here?

In life things are never as clear as Black & White

I think marriage would solve the status of the child straightaway..... Although I am sure the people who made these rules had some considerations for illegitimate children. How about registration as BC (although I am aware both parents have to consent)

......to be continued

Chess wrote:That is a rather interesting discussion - so basically a single unmarried HSMP/WP holder should investigate the 'immigration status' of the would be mother/father prior to thinking of having babies. This would be hursh!

Quite the contrary - however the immigration status of the mother is a consideration in granting the baby further leave to remain in the UK i.e. you have the moral issues and the legal one - I am discussing the latter.

Chess wrote:Now let us to try to get to the bottom of this...... If I (Chess Esq) say on a WP or HSMP got jiggy with (Lady beautifull) and we had a baby (Baby Rastafarian) illegitimately (unmarried). .......

What would be the easiest/legal way of getting Baby Rastafarian travel documents without the immigration status of lady beautifull coming into play???.

Can I apply for HSMP/WP depedant visa for Baby Rastafarian on the FLR (O) without including the mothers ppt. i.e submit my ppt with HSMP/WP visa,
birth certificates and NHS card.

Kaya, look at this way. If lady beautifull decided to leave me with the kid - do you mean that I would never be able to sort out the kids travel documents

Any application under the immigration rules requires details of the mother. An exception to this is where the mother has abondoned the child and you can prove that you have the sole day to day care of the child - is this the case? As a minimum I would expect the Home Office to require a statutory declaration to this effect.

Chess wrote:Kaya, look at this way. If lady beautifull decided to leave me with the kid - do you mean that I would never be able to sort out the kids travel documents

The child would either be stateless (unlikley) or would get your/mothers nationality with subsequent passport facilities on application. Where no travel document is presented in an FLR application on a justifiable basis, leave to remain is issued on a letter with a residence permit + photo endorsed.

Chess wrote:I think marriage would solve the status of the child straightaway

Appreciate not as easy as my Q has made it appear - not intentional in any way.

Chess wrote:How about registration as BC (although I am aware both parents have to consent)

Not possible unless child in care of local authority due to abondment by both birth parents.

I hope things work for you, lady beautiful and the child. Do get competent legal advice on this - definitley not a DIY application.

Kaya,

With all due respect you have made this scenario look unnecessarily complex.......... If you can spare a minute or two and go through forms like SET (O) and FLR (O).....it clearly states that you should provide passports/documents of those depedants who are applying for ILR with you

So there is no requirement to provide the ppt of the mother if She is NOT applying for leave with the HSMP/WP holder ..... Only need to provide documents pertaining to the child.......

With all due respect back where have I said that the mother's passport is required ?

Kaya,

So basically one can use the FLR (O) or SET (O) as appropriate and include the child as depedant as its only the child who would be applying for leave and not mama Rasta.

No part of the form requests for Mama Rasta's documents

Chess wrote:Kaya,

So basically one can use the FLR (O) or SET (O) as appropriate and include the child as depedant as its only the child who would be applying for leave and not mama Rasta.

No part of the form requests for Mama Rasta's documents

What? Do I detect a grudging apology...you can do better than that...must be a man thing . I'll try and simplify it:

The application will be decided on the basis of meeting the immigration rules or a concession outside this as applicable pursuant to the relevant Immigration Act. You are intent on not providing the mother's details and have zeroed in on that her ppt is not required. Well her child's birth certificate will have her name on it (its the law) and the caseworker will need to know more about her to consider the application - this is a fact.

I am the caseworker at Croydon and you have turned up to submit the application - you are downstairs at initial screening. Here goes the conversation:

CW: Morning how can I help you?

Chess: I am here to submit a dependent application for my child.

CW: Right - I take your packet and its form SET(O) - I look at your ppt and see you don't have ILR i.e. you are applying for a dependent to have ILR while you still have limited leave as HSMP/WP - sorry this is the wrong category so go away re-apply on the right form and come back..you can fill out a fresh form here if you want.

OR

CW: Right - I take your packet and its form FLR(O) - I check you have Limited Leave To Remain and see your HSMP/WP stamp - fine. I check a full birth cert is included. I can deduce from it that you are not married to the mother but I ask for marriage certificate to verify this is the case.

Chess: I am not married to the mother

CW: Where is she?

Chess: Why do you ask?

CW: Her details are required to determine the application - the child's leave will need to match that of the parent who has a longer period of stay. I will need the mother's passport.

Chess: I don't know where she is:

CW: So you are saying she has abondoned the child - can you provide proof of this.

Chess: Why do you need this.

CW: To disregard the mother in the application

Chess: How do I do that

CW: Get a report from the social services including evidence of the child's day to day care and details of the GP with a statutory declaration/ affidavit attesting to the abondonment including details from the hospital where the child was born - Leeds Royal Infirmary etc.

Chess: Over to you dude!! - remember false information for the success of this application may come back to haunt you.

Kaya,

Thanx for the role play there - you are tough CW and BTW, I dont think Chess would give some of those 'dumb' replies .


CW: Where is the mother's ppt?

Chess: The application form only states that we should include ppts of depedants who applying for LTR - so i thought it was not necessary to provide the ppt.


CW. Where is the mother?
Chess. The mother went back to 'Timbukutu' where I also came from 2 months ago and she is not returning so I am gonna be raising the child on my own!

CHECK MATE!!!!

Scenario 2

CW: Where is the mother's ppt?

Chess: I have got a certified copy of her British PPt (obtained by naturalisation).


CW. So the child is already British

Chess: No sir, The child was born before the mother became British. That is why we need to get the child 'the LTR

bang - Stamp, come back in a couple of hours for the ppt

BTW, would the CW try to investigate how the mother got her citizenship. Is Croydon/Liverpool/Birmingham/Glasgow linked to the Liverpool ppt office?


Over to you..................(I am role playing - so no possibility of being haunted)

Chess wrote: Kaya,

Thanx for the role play there - you are tough CW and BTW, I dont think Chess would give some of those 'dumb' replies .

Still no outright apology young man - they don't make engineers like they used to

CW: Where is the mother's ppt?

Chess: The application form only states that we should include ppts of depedants who applying for LTR - so i thought it was not necessary to provide the ppt.

CW: Form FLR(O) - Para 7k states:

If you are applying for an extension of stay in the UK for any other purpose or reason, a letter or other document explaining why you should be given an extension of stay. You must give full details and provide any relevant document(s) to support your case.

Under the powers vested in me by the Home Secretary I require the submission of a passport or any other document verifying the identity and immigration status of the mother in resolving this application.

CW. Where is the mother?

Chess. The mother went back to 'Timbukutu' where I also came from 2 months ago and she is not returning so I am gonna be raising the child on my own!

CW: Please provide evidence of said departure and abondment as the case may be in the form of affidavits as provided for by the local, health and legal authorities in the manner prescribed before i.e. as per my initial role play.

CHECK MATE!!!!

Scenario 2

CW: Where is the mother's ppt?

Chess: I have got a certified copy of her British PPt (obtained by naturalisation).


CW. So the child is already British

Chess: No sir, The child was born before the mother became British. That is why we need to get the child 'the LTR

bang - Stamp, come back in a couple of hours for the ppt

Sorry you've lost me - the mother is no longer illegal but is now a BC or we are talking about a different woman. In any case as per your own words if she (BC) is the sponsor then her details are needed either for minor registration as a BC or for an ILR application (not possible as UK born and not a joint ILR application) including an original passport or susbstantive documentation pertaining to nationality and residence in the UK in lieu. Where do you come in this scenario? Go back to jail - do not pass go and do not collect 200.

BTW, would the CW try to investigate how the mother got her citizenship. Is Croydon/Liverpool/Birmingham/Glasgow linked to the Liverpool ppt office?

The Home Office can refer to any agency/ section be it internal or external in the discharge of their duties.

Over to you..................(I am role playing - so no possibility of being haunted)

Not really getting much joy with this are you - ditto

Kaya,

Thanx for the role play (nice to see that you have played Devils Advocate as usual -

Where there is a will there is a way

I am sure Mama Rasta and Child will be OK - assuming they ever come into existence