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ILR and Citizenship Tougher language requirements

Please use this section of the board for queries about Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR). However please use the EEA-route section for queries about the EEA-route equivalent of Permanent Residence (PR).


This section is relevant irrespective of whether current status is Tiered or Non-Tiered.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

friday
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Post by friday » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:33 pm

I had a quick look at the pdf file. If I have a degree (PhD research) taught in UK + passed life in UK test + applied for ILR before 28 Oct. 2013, do I need to a pass the english language for naturalisation?

I know it is mentioned that people with UK degree are automatically passed the english language. But this is mentioned in the ILR section. In the naturalisation section, it says "For some people this will mean passing a relevant speaking and listening qualification for the first time. Others will need to pass a speaking and listening qualification at a higher level than they had to demonstrate to be granted leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK.

So they mentioned two options only: (for some..)either pass the English test or (others) upgrade your already obtained degree. They did not mention about any other people who already have UK degree.


May you please advice on this.

Ramana66
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Posts: 114
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Post by Ramana66 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:12 pm

If you read carefully, the whole objective is get more money through Leave To Remain Extensions (after 28th Oct 2013) for the dependents as if they don't meet the KOLL requirements, NO ILR, and need to extend their current dependent visa, paying a fees of over £1500 (which may increase further in coming years).

This is clear from below paragraph from the statement (Page 7).

We recognise that the new KoLL requirement may be challenging for some. We will therefore allow the following categories of applicant to apply for further periods of limited leave (subject to continuing to meet the other relevant Immigration Rules in their category) to enable them to meet the requirement if they not yet done so:

Another money fleecing tactic.

babe_khyber
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Location: ENGLAND UK

re ESOL and LIFE IN THE UK TEST FOR BOTH ILR AND BC

Post by babe_khyber » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:37 pm

Ramana66 wrote:If you read carefully, the whole objective is get more money through Leave To Remain Extensions (after 28th Oct 2013) for the dependents as if they don't meet the KOLL requirements, NO ILR, and need to extend their current dependent visa, paying a fees of over £1500 (which may increase further in coming years).

This is clear from below paragraph from the statement (Page 7).

We recognise that the new KoLL requirement may be challenging for some. We will therefore allow the following categories of applicant to apply for further periods of limited leave (subject to continuing to meet the other relevant Immigration Rules in their category) to enable them to meet the requirement if they not yet done so:

Another money fleecing tactic.
What about that? Any chances of provision for Refugees whos already got it ILR,
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/busin ... providers/
babe khyber

[iD]
Senior Member
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:36 am

Post by [iD] » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:06 pm

Ramana66 wrote:If you read carefully, the whole objective is get more money through Leave To Remain Extensions (after 28th Oct 2013) for the dependents as if they don't meet the KOLL requirements, NO ILR, and need to extend their current dependent visa, paying a fees of over £1500 (which may increase further in coming years).

This is clear from below paragraph from the statement (Page 7).

We recognise that the new KoLL requirement may be challenging for some. We will therefore allow the following categories of applicant to apply for further periods of limited leave (subject to continuing to meet the other relevant Immigration Rules in their category) to enable them to meet the requirement if they not yet done so:

Another money fleecing tactic.
It was, is and will always be about money. Half of those so called natives can't even spell the word tomorrow let alone passing the life in the uk test. All they know is how to say hello mate with their weird accents.
Goodluck.

Sep08T1Applicant
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Location: London
Mood:

Post by Sep08T1Applicant » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:07 am

[iD] wrote:
Ramana66 wrote:If you read carefully, the whole objective is get more money through Leave To Remain Extensions (after 28th Oct 2013) for the dependents as if they don't meet the KOLL requirements, NO ILR, and need to extend their current dependent visa, paying a fees of over £1500 (which may increase further in coming years).

This is clear from below paragraph from the statement (Page 7).

We recognise that the new KoLL requirement may be challenging for some. We will therefore allow the following categories of applicant to apply for further periods of limited leave (subject to continuing to meet the other relevant Immigration Rules in their category) to enable them to meet the requirement if they not yet done so:

Another money fleecing tactic.
It was, is and will always be about money. Half of those so called natives can't even spell the word tomorrow let alone passing the life in the uk test. All they know is how to say hello mate with their weird accents.
exactly :(, nailed it
It is always about money, When they actually launch the new LIUT, there were some sample questions on MSN, I asked my colleagues to try it and the results were not really good. Unfortunately, tests, rules and fees are only meant to restrict and filter immigrants :(
(it is my opinion)

avatar2010
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Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:11 am

Post by avatar2010 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:24 am

Sep08T1Applicant wrote:
[iD] wrote:
Ramana66 wrote:If you read carefully, the whole objective is get more money through Leave To Remain Extensions (after 28th Oct 2013) for the dependents as if they don't meet the KOLL requirements, NO ILR, and need to extend their current dependent visa, paying a fees of over £1500 (which may increase further in coming years).

This is clear from below paragraph from the statement (Page 7).

We recognise that the new KoLL requirement may be challenging for some. We will therefore allow the following categories of applicant to apply for further periods of limited leave (subject to continuing to meet the other relevant Immigration Rules in their category) to enable them to meet the requirement if they not yet done so:

Another money fleecing tactic.
It was, is and will always be about money. Half of those so called natives can't even spell the word tomorrow let alone passing the life in the uk test. All they know is how to say hello mate with their weird accents.
exactly :(, nailed it
It is always about money, When they actually launch the new LIUT, there were some sample questions on MSN, I asked my colleagues to try it and the results were not really good. Unfortunately, tests, rules and fees are only meant to restrict and filter immigrants :(
(it is my opinion)
Agree, it is a money game. I wonder if our visa and test fees are driving half of their economy ! What a shame !

Are people not exempted from taking Speaking and listening test based on this para on page 6 of Statement of intent ?

"It is possible that the requirements for English language for KoLL may change in the future and
applicants will need to meet the requirements in place at that time.
The following groups are considered automatically to meet the English language component of the
KoLL requirement and will not be required to show a formal speaking and listening qualification:
• Nationals of majority English speaking countries (Annex A).
• Those who have obtained a degree taught in English.
Both of these groups will, however, be required to pass the Life in the UK test to demonstrate
their knowledge of life in the UK."

Somudro
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Post by Somudro » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:28 am

What about the the dependents (over age eighteen) of Tier-1 having LIUK?

snowball001
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Post by snowball001 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:56 pm

friday wrote:I had a quick look at the pdf file. If I have a degree (PhD research) taught in UK + passed life in UK test + applied for ILR before 28 Oct. 2013, do I need to a pass the english language for naturalisation?

I know it is mentioned that people with UK degree are automatically passed the english language. But this is mentioned in the ILR section. In the naturalisation section, it says "For some people this will mean passing a relevant speaking and listening qualification for the first time. Others will need to pass a speaking and listening qualification at a higher level than they had to demonstrate to be granted leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK.

So they mentioned two options only: (for some..)either pass the English test or (others) upgrade your already obtained degree. They did not mention about any other people who already have UK degree.


May you please advice on this.
The requirements for natralisation are the same for ILR (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t-koll.pdf) so you don't need to take English test since you have a degree taught in English.

As for the 'some people' who may need to take english test for the first time, it could be, e.g. dependents who got ILR with no or lower English language qualifications.

king2be98
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Post by king2be98 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:53 pm

So if my understanding is correct for non EU applicants and those not from an English speaking country.

Anyone applying for the ILR after Oct 2013, irrespective of when they entered the UK, will have to pass the following:

1 - New Life in the UK Test, similar to the current one, if not identical.
2 - Another english test - regardless of whether they did an english test for their initial entry clearance VISA.

In regards to point 2, which specific test will be the requirement? Is it the B1? C1?

cs95tdg
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Location: London

Post by cs95tdg » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:34 pm

snowball001 wrote:
friday wrote:I had a quick look at the pdf file. If I have a degree (PhD research) taught in UK + passed life in UK test + applied for ILR before 28 Oct. 2013, do I need to a pass the english language for naturalisation?

I know it is mentioned that people with UK degree are automatically passed the english language. But this is mentioned in the ILR section. In the naturalisation section, it says "For some people this will mean passing a relevant speaking and listening qualification for the first time. Others will need to pass a speaking and listening qualification at a higher level than they had to demonstrate to be granted leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK.

So they mentioned two options only: (for some..)either pass the English test or (others) upgrade your already obtained degree. They did not mention about any other people who already have UK degree.
May you please advice on this.
The requirements for natralisation are the same for ILR (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t-koll.pdf) so you don't need to take English test since you have a degree taught in English.

As for the 'some people' who may need to take english test for the first time, it could be, e.g. dependents who got ILR with no or lower English language qualifications.

Personally I'd be inclined to agree with this interpretation (from a logical point-of-view), even though it isn't worded in a manner that makes this explicitly clear. For it to be clear they should have included the text in blue below to be common to "KoL & Life requirement for Settlement" & "KoL & Life requirement for Naturalisation". The way it appears at the moment suggests that this text is only applicable to the "KoL & Life requirement for Settlement" section of the document.
cs95tdg wrote:Briefly scanned through the first link. I recall that this requirement was put forth earlier last year. Note the following statement mentioned in the document - it may apply to you:

The following groups are considered automatically to meet the English language component of the KoLL requirement and will not be required to show a formal speaking and listening qualification:

• Nationals of majority English speaking countries (Annex A).
• Those who have obtained a degree taught in English.


As this is only mentioned under the section for "KoL & Life requirement for Settlement", I'm not entirely sure whether it would apply to someone who had obtained ILR before October 2013, but then went onto apply for Naturalisation after October 2013. Logically I see no reason why it wouldn't. The document should have included that statement in a manner where it applied to both sections: I.e. Settlement and Naturalisation.

dilip_gem
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Location: UK

Post by dilip_gem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:39 pm

The following groups are considered automatically to meet the English language component of the
KoLL requirement and will not be required to show a formal speaking and listening qualification:

Nationals of majority English speaking countries (Annex A).

Those who have obtained a degree taught in English.
Both of these groups will, however, be required to pass the Life in the UK test to demonstrate
their knowledge of life in the UK.


Ok.. I reckon it is for the people (I'm talking about Tier-1) who did not have a Degree which was taught in English during their initial Tier-1 PBS application. However, they fulfilled this requirement by passing 'English Language' test which was NOT of B1 level. I think for the Tier-1 PBS initial application, 'English language' requirement was that of 'C1' level (which is lower than 'B1' level).

So if you are on Tier-1 and have a degree which was taught in English, then you are good. No need to go for this language test.


This is just my assumption based on quick read through the policy document (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t-koll.pdf).


Regards,
Gem

Ramana66
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Post by Ramana66 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:51 pm

Small Correction @dilip_gem

The level C1 is higher than B1. The levels in increasing language skills based on CEFR (Council of Europe’s Common European Framework) are:

A1 } Basic User
A2 } Basic User
B1 } Independent User
B2 } Independent User
C1 } Proficient User
C2 } Proficient User
(C2 being highest and equivalent to maximum level possible on IELTS - Band 9.0) - Fluency commensurate with that of native speaker

See below links:

http://www.cambridgeenglish.org/about-u ... standards/

http://c828274.r74.cf3.rackcdn.com/Engl ... -chart.pdf

dilip_gem
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Location: UK

Post by dilip_gem » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:03 pm

Oh I see.. I just checked English language requirement for Tier-1 PBS for people with degree but NOT taught in English :

What is an approved English language test?

We will only accept English language test certificates from education providers that have been assessed as meeting our requirements. You can download a list of acceptable tests from the right side of this page.

You must check that you have passed an English language test that is on the list, and is still within its validity period. You must have achieved at least CEFR level B1 in all 4 components (reading, writing, speaking and listening).

You can make your application before you have taken or received the results of an English language test. If the test provider confirms that you have sat a test or have a confirmed date to take the test, we will hold your application open so that you can complete this process. But if you do not pass the test on the first attempt, we will not hold your application open so that you can make more attempts.



Ramana66 wrote:Small Correction @dilip_gem

The level C1 is higher than B1. The levels in increasing language skills based on CEFR (Council of Europe’s Common European Framework) are:

A1 } Basic User
A2 } Basic User
B1 } Independent User
B2 } Independent User
C1 } Proficient User
C2 } Proficient User
(C2 being highest and equivalent to maximum level possible on IELTS - Band 9.0) - Fluency commensurate with that of native speaker

See below link:

http://c828274.r74.cf3.rackcdn.com/Engl ... -chart.pdf

T1ilr
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:34 pm

Post by T1ilr » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:52 am

Hello,

I read the statement of intent here.

Looks fairly simple here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t-koll.pdf

A) If you are from majority of English speaking nation

Or

B) If your degree was taught in English (if you can prove / proven)

Or

C) if you have proven with IELTS or similar during EC (this is my interpretation from the example provided for Tier 2 blokes in the above doc).

I can't, as a tier 1 guy waiting to climb the Ilr ladder,don't see a reason to whine yet or am I missing something. ______________________________________________________________
I am not a solicitor, advocate, lawyer, accountant, banker etc., all the opinions in the post are my opinions only. I don't tweet or use Facebook.

Please PM me if you think I can answer your question. After all it won't cost a penny for either of us.

Somudro
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Post by Somudro » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:55 am

Do you have any details of the course? Any link?

Is this B1 or C1?

T1ilr
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Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:34 pm

Post by T1ilr » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:08 am

No more details available on this topic.




________________________________________________________

Climbing uphill is always tough, but the view is fantastic from the top.

friday
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Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:23 pm

Post by friday » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:39 pm

Thank you snowball001 and cs95tdg for your comments.

I agree wih cs95tdg that is very likely that I do not need to pass the English language test when I apply for naturalisation after oct. 2013 if I have a degree taught in UK, but it is not clear.

May you please let me know if there is way to confirm this? I feel even if we wait until they publish the details, it will still be in the same format! I mean what happens if they just add just few details to the current pdf file without answering our question?

Thank you again for you help.



cs95tdg wrote:
snowball001 wrote:
friday wrote:I had a quick look at the pdf file. If I have a degree (PhD research) taught in UK + passed life in UK test + applied for ILR before 28 Oct. 2013, do I need to a pass the english language for naturalisation?

I know it is mentioned that people with UK degree are automatically passed the english language. But this is mentioned in the ILR section. In the naturalisation section, it says "For some people this will mean passing a relevant speaking and listening qualification for the first time. Others will need to pass a speaking and listening qualification at a higher level than they had to demonstrate to be granted leave to enter or leave to remain in the UK.

So they mentioned two options only: (for some..)either pass the English test or (others) upgrade your already obtained degree. They did not mention about any other people who already have UK degree.
May you please advice on this.
The requirements for natralisation are the same for ILR (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t-koll.pdf) so you don't need to take English test since you have a degree taught in English.

As for the 'some people' who may need to take english test for the first time, it could be, e.g. dependents who got ILR with no or lower English language qualifications.

Personally I'd be inclined to agree with this interpretation (from a logical point-of-view), even though it isn't worded in a manner that makes this explicitly clear. For it to be clear they should have included the text in blue below to be common to "KoL & Life requirement for Settlement" & "KoL & Life requirement for Naturalisation". The way it appears at the moment suggests that this text is only applicable to the "KoL & Life requirement for Settlement" section of the document.
cs95tdg wrote:Briefly scanned through the first link. I recall that this requirement was put forth earlier last year. Note the following statement mentioned in the document - it may apply to you:

The following groups are considered automatically to meet the English language component of the KoLL requirement and will not be required to show a formal speaking and listening qualification:

• Nationals of majority English speaking countries (Annex A).
• Those who have obtained a degree taught in English.


As this is only mentioned under the section for "KoL & Life requirement for Settlement", I'm not entirely sure whether it would apply to someone who had obtained ILR before October 2013, but then went onto apply for Naturalisation after October 2013. Logically I see no reason why it wouldn't. The document should have included that statement in a manner where it applied to both sections: I.e. Settlement and Naturalisation.

deleted_user

Post by deleted_user » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:23 pm

Hey guys, they want us to leave.

But we aren't going to leave are we. We are highly skilled in staying in the UK. :lol:

As election time nears David Cameron's migration target becomes more critical. Otherwise the opposition will hold a proper face blackening ceremony for him. Expect more rules. More stress.

Btw, watch this rubbish. Somehow I feel UK is like that room these people are trapped in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQWFxcU ... 4A66570888

lapppt
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Post by lapppt » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:03 am

The Pass Notification Letter for the Life in the UK test provides that "Following your test today in knowledge of life in the United Kingdom this is to certify that you have reached the level required for the purposes of obtaining indefinite leave to remain under the Immigration Rules or for naturalization as a British Citizen under section 6 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

Your success at this test also demonstrates that your level of competence in English meets the required standards for naturalization or indefinite leave to remain.

No further proof of this is needed
."

My emphasis is in the last two sentences. Unless there is going to be transitional arrangements, those who have already done and passed the Life in the UK test may rely on those sentences to argue that the new law is contrary to what they have been advised in the past that NO FURTHER PROOF OF THIS IS NEEDED TO DEMONSTRATE THEIR LEVEL OF COMPETENCE IN ENGLISH.

I understand some will argue that there is no legitimate expectation in matters of immigration, but I strongly believe that this does not apply here. Those who completed the Life in the UK test had legitimate expectations that NO FURTHER PROOF OF THIS WOULD BE NEEDED for their competence in English, unless the Government believes that competence in English can be lost even when you are in the UK.

It will also be shocking if skilled immigrants who have lived and worked in the UK for 5 years are told to prove that they understand English when they apply for settlement. How did they allow those skilled immigrants to enter and work in the UK in the first place if they did not show that they understand English?

[iD]
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Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:36 am

Post by [iD] » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:19 am

I'm just gonna sleep on it for 6 months. Let me know in October if I have to waste more money on stupid tests or not.

BTW coming to think of it, how much money would I have saved if I were illegal here...
Goodluck.

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