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New rules, minor traffic offence

Please use this section of the board for queries about Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR). However please use the EEA-route section for queries about the EEA-route equivalent of Permanent Residence (PR).


This section is relevant irrespective of whether current status is Tiered or Non-Tiered.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

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JohnM
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New rules, minor traffic offence

Post by JohnM » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:44 pm

Hello, thanks in advance for professional help, is someone could help, it would be amazing and great!

New rules about eligibility for ILR say (more info here: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=119001)
they have, within the 24 months preceding the date of the application, been convicted of or admitted an offence for which they have received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal that is recorded on their criminal record
I recently got one very minor driving offence:

CD10, Driving without due care and attention, 4 points, 200 pounds fine.

Basically, I did not notice motorcyclist in my blind zone. Nobody was injured and only and maybe motorcycle had small damage because of evasive action (did not touch my car) or, more likely, because he dropped it on the ground when he decided to "talk" to me (lost his temper). I did not attend any court but the fine and conviction was given by court. I paid the fine immediately over the telephone.

In the current rules which were in force before today, my ILR should have been accepted because one minor conviction can be ignored if it is not "recklessness". It is not.

Will new rules cancel this? Will everybody have to wait 24 months since the date of conviction even it was one minor driving offence which was not "recklessness"?

Apparently, my conviction is usually not even on CRB checks. However, mine was recorded for some reason, probably because it happened in Scotland and Scotland is not part of PNC records framework. Or maybe it's just like a lottery. I saw many people did not have any record of similar offence on forums and I saw one person had. I definitely did not have any other factors which would influence it been recorded. I was completely honest here. I consulted traffic solicitor and he confirmed to me that this is very minor offence which is reflected in only 4 points and smallest fine available. I lived in this country for more than 9 years now and would be eligible for 10 years ILR in summer (if I would with these new rules). I was driving for 13+ years and this is my only offence (and I was driving a lot).


And one more question. If I will not be eligible for 10 years ILR by new rules (have to wait 24 months since conviction). My wife would be eligible. If she applies for ILR and I would be her dependent. Would I be eligible for dependent visa or the same rules would effectively prohibit me from getting even new dependent visa? I even begin to think, would it not make my current stay in UK on Entrepreneur dependent visa illegal or because I'm already here it is Ok? Maybe they will want to cancel my current visa now because of one small fine? Or, another chilling scenario, if I try to apply for ILR and ask them for "forgiveness" based on how minor it was with solicitor letter, etc. and then they refuse and also revoke my current visa because I am no longer eligible for it based on new rules, is it possible?


It would be great if some professional could clarify it. I think there are a lot of people in similar situation (small fines, etc.) who read new rules now and can't understand the same. No speculations please.

geriatrix
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Post by geriatrix » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:44 am

Have you checked if you have a criminal record, and whether this offence (CD 10) is noted in your criminal record and/or as an unspent conviction?

In Scotland, motoring FPNs are dealt with by procurator fiscal, an officer of the court, hence all FPNs are dealt with by the court. This doesn't necessarily mean that paying a fine on a court issued FPN leads to a criminal record or an unspent conviction.
Life isn't fair, but you can be!

JohnM
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Post by JohnM » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:57 am

Yes I checked through Disclosure Scotland and it is there. It s written there Road Traffic Act Section 3, £200 fine. I hoped that Home Office would ignore it because it does not constitute "recklessness". And I don't have anything else. And now I worry that new rules would remove it when they allowed to have one small offence.

geriatrix
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Post by geriatrix » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:00 am

JohnM wrote:Road Traffic Act Section 3, £200 fine.
What is this written under / against? Criminal Record / Unspent conviction / fines / offences / or something else?

Just because a fine for a motoring offence is recorded in a PNC check does not make it a "criminal record".
Life isn't fair, but you can be!

JohnM
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Post by JohnM » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:07 am

Road Traffic is written where Offence is.

And all that written under "Convictions" heading.

Like that. Not criminal convictions, just one word "Convictions".

Then there is Date, Court, Offence and Disposal.

Court: Stirling Sheriff

Offence: Road Traffic Act Section 3

In Disposal it is written: CHG(S) 1 License Endorsed, Fine £200.


I did not attend court. I paid fine over the phone.
Last edited by JohnM on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

JohnM
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Posts: 234
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Post by JohnM » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:15 am

Road Traffic Act is written in Offence field.

Offence: Road Traffic Act, Section 3

Under Convictions heading. Between Court and Disposal.

(Sorry wrote 2 similar replies because did not correctly understood question at first and then edited both replies to correct answer).

JohnM
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Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:42 pm

Post by JohnM » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:26 am

sushdmehta wrote:
JohnM wrote:Road Traffic Act Section 3, £200 fine.
What is this written under / against? Criminal Record / Unspent conviction / fines / offences / or something else?

Just because a fine for a motoring offence is recorded in a PNC check does not make it a "criminal record".
I wonder then should I declare it on ILR application form? I also want to apply for US tourist visa and there is a question in the application form about Criminal Convictions (even spent). Do I have criminal conviction or not. Common sense tells me that it is not criminal conviction, however, I don't want to be accused of deception later on.

So do you think ILR application should be fine even with new rules?

geriatrix
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Post by geriatrix » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:05 pm

AFAIK, it is nothing but a FPN.
Even if we assume it to be a conviction, then "having no unspent convictions" will no longer be a requirement when the relevant rules are amended.

Since you are not applying rightaway, best to wait for detailed information to become available on the matter. Doubts, if any, will be cleared in time.
Life isn't fair, but you can be!

JohnM
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Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:42 pm

Post by JohnM » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:26 pm

Thank you!!!

Yes, I see what you mean. So, even if they treat it as conviction, in Good Character requirements there is written that they ignore one minor conviction. So when I first saw new rules I was worried that they will cancel it but it looks like they would not cancel Good Character rules because they do not mention it anywhere in new pdf.

But it should not be treated as criminal conviction in the first place, more like FPN as you mentioned. What confused me is that it showed on Basic Disclosure. But it probably happened because it was in Scotland. So, the fact, that it was recorded, should not mean that it goes under "criminality" category when in reality it was minor traffic offence.

they have, within the 24 months preceding the date of the application, been convicted of or admitted an offence for which they have received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal that is recorded on their criminal record
It would be crazy to apply this to one minor traffic offence which was recorded, right?

JohnM
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Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:42 pm

Post by JohnM » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:08 pm

sushdmehta wrote:Have you checked if you have a criminal record, and whether this offence (CD 10) is noted in your criminal record and/or as an unspent conviction?

In Scotland, motoring FPNs are dealt with by procurator fiscal, an officer of the court, hence all FPNs are dealt with by the court. This doesn't necessarily mean that paying a fine on a court issued FPN leads to a criminal record or an unspent conviction.
Dear Sushdmehta

Thank you very much for your valuable explanation.

Since this post, I did ACRO police certificate check. They sent me police certificate. It states "NO TRACE". In Cover Letter to this certificate it is explained - No Trace means you don't have any conviction, police cautions, warnings, etc.

So now I wonder, should I declare it in Set O form that I have Criminal conviction and then describe it. Or I should not? On the one hand, people advice to describe in order to be completely honest. On the other hand, why should I accuse myself of criminal conviction when ACRO told me I don't have any. Set O is somewhat confusing cause they also ask there to give driving offences but only after you confirm that you had criminal conviction. It's so confusing. I don't want to be accused of deception but I also know that UKBA is not always like an angel and I don't want to represent myself as having criminal conviction if I don't have any.

What should I do? Do I need professional consultation for a fee?

P.S. sorry but I also started another topic about the same with no success, then I found my old topic and decided to repost it in order to be more useful for immigration community. :) thank you so much

JohnM
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Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:42 pm

Post by JohnM » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:33 pm

LOL

After more research on this great forum, I found answers to my questions myself. Check out my last message here for my findings:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=120689

Thanks to everyone who participated. I hope it will also help to people whom would worry like myself to relax faster. Cheers :)

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