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4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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ca.funke
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4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:12 pm

You can travel visa-free throughout all of the European Union IF :
  • You are travelling in possession of a "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen"
    • In Ireland this is the 4EUFam-Card
  • AND together with the EU family relation
  • OR joining the EU family relation at your destination :!:
The applicable law is >>Directive 2004/38/EC<<, Articles 5 and 10
Article 5
Right of entry
1. (...)
2. ... For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
such family members from the visa requirement.
Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called 'Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen' (...)
The European Commission describes this >>here<<:
YOU MIGHT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN ENTRY VISA

Possession of the valid residence card, (...) issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.
Unfortunately these facts are not known to all embassies, airline staff and immigration officials, therefore I compiled this guide which contains:
  • Emails received from many Dublin based EU embassies about this. (scroll down, continued on the next page...)
  • A list of all embassie's websites and their respective information about this. (next page, or click >>here<<)
    • The emails and websites give an overview whether the law is known and respected in each individual country.
    • Unfortunately this is not always the case.
  • A >>practical guide<< on how to be able to use this law.
  • Last but not least I filed a >>petition with the European Parliament<< asking them to consider the mess this law created.
I sent the following email to all EU embassies in Dublin to see[list][*]if they know AND [*]voluntarily inform citizens about visa free travel as described above. [*]I included a scan of both passports, the 4EUFam Card and our marriage certificate into the following email:[/color][/list]
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Sun, Aug 17, 2008
Subject: Visa necessary?
To:all EU embassies

Dear Madam or Sir,

my wife (Lebanese Citizen) and myself (German) envisage visiting [your country] for a weekend-trip.

My wife is in posession of an Irish EU4-Fam-card, as per attached documents.

Will we have to apply for a visa? If yes, could you please outline the procedure?

Thanks and regards, Christian
The replies are listed below:


Stating a visa is needed: No answer: Stating a visa is NOT needed: other cases:
  • 4 countries (>>Austria, Belgium, Cyprus and Malta<<) already confirmed this is correct in earlier contacts (=a visa is NOT needed), so I didn't ask again.
  • I also sent this email to the Norwegian ( emb.dublin@mfa.no ) and the Icelandic ( icemb.london@utn.stjr.is ) embassies, but I have no clue at all what their answer should be. (They are Schengen, but as they're not in the EU I assume they are not bound by 2004/38/EC.)
When I received negative answers, I followed up with a modular email as follows:
:arrow: General
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: visa
To: ...

Dear xyz,
Thanks for your fast reply. I do have some questions around the visa-procedure:
:arrow: Visa necessary at all?
I found the following information on the website of the European Commission:

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/c ... ex_en.html
YOU MIGHT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN ENTRY VISA
(...)
Possession of the valid residence card, referred to in the relevant fact sheet, issued by any Member State,
exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.
As my wife in in possession of an EU4Fam-card, which is the Irish version of the "Residence Card for EU family members" as referred to above, I was hoping that we do not need a separate Visa?
:arrow: Additional Documentation
If we still do need a visa, I hope it can be granted providing our passports and our marriage-certificate (only), as per the following?
As your right of entry is derived from your family ties with a Union citizen, all the Member State consular officials can ask you to produce for the visa application is your passport and a document establishing the family ties with a Union citizen, such as marriage or birth certificate and proof of dependence, where applicable.
:arrow: Free of charge?
Furthermore, as my wife is the family-member of an EU-citizen (me), the visa should be issued free of charge?
The Member State of destination should grant you every facility to obtain the necessary visa, which shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure. In any event, even in the most difficult cases, the visa should be issued no later than a couple of weeks following the date of application.
Could you fill me in about the necessary procedure, considering the above?

Thanks and regards,

All answers received are listed beneath and also included in a >>petition to the European Parliament<<.

After having waited 8 working days for replies, I sent >>this<< email to all embassies at once, hoping to improve overall awareness of this law where necessary.
Last edited by ca.funke on Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:29 pm, edited 67 times in total.

ca.funke
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Bulgaria

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:13 pm

Bulgaria (Visa NOT required) :)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bulgarianembassydublin <bulgarianembassydublin@eircom.net>
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr.,

Your wife does not require visa for Bulgaria on the legal grounds of Article 4, Item 3 of the Entry, Stay and Exit of EU Citizens and members of their family in the Republic of Bulgaria Act.

NB! Please, carry your original marriage certificate with you while entering and leaving Bulgaria.
Yours sincerely,
(...)
Second Secretary and Consul
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:23 am, edited 6 times in total.

ca.funke
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Czech Republic

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:13 pm

Czech Republic (Visa required) :( : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Subject: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

Dear Mr./Mrs.
To your query we would like to inform you that your wife as a spouse of
German nationality has to apply for a visa (free of charge) .

You can find all information about visas on our website: www.mzv.cz/dublin

Your wifw has to submit tourist visa application and supporting documents
as well in person during official hours (Tue&Thu: 9.30-12.00, 13.30-16.00),
no appointment is necessary. It takes 10-15 working days to get a visa
clearance of the Czech Immigration Police.

Kind regards
(...)
Consular Officer
Second answer received, unfortunately not much better, but the "supporting documents" seem to be gone... :(
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: Christian


Dear Mr.,

You do not need any visas to the Czech Republic, because you are EU citizen.
Your wife needs to aply in person for visas /free of charge/. She has to provide yours German passport and marriage certificate.

Best Regards
(...)
Consular section
Having found this link through 86ti's contribution (thanks a lot!) I will try again for a last time...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>

Dear (...),

forgive me for contacting you for the third time about the same issue. This is probably due to the special situation we are in.

Your Ministry of Foreign Affairs publishes a leaflet (attached and availabe here), which reads:
Third-country nationals – family members of citizens of
the EU, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland or Liechtenstein


...The visa is not required for stays which do
not exceed 3 months if they hold a valid
residence permit or card issued by an EU
Member State or any of the countries
stated above...
As my wife holds an Irish EU4Fam-card, which is the mentioned "residence permit (...) issued by an EU Member State", I still believe that it may be possible for my wife and myself to travel to your country without a visa.

It would be lovely to have this verified, as it would eliminate the hassle of applying for a visa.

Thanks a lot for your consideration of the above and have a lovely day,

Christian
I find it disappointing that they don't trust their own Minister of Foreign Affairs :(
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr.,

As mention in previous reply, your wife is obliged to apply for a visas before she is going to the Czech republic. These visas are free of charge.

You can find more information on our websites: www.mzv.cz/dublin

Best Regards
(...)
Consular section
In reply to my email to all embassies, I received this info: :(
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Czech Embassy Consular Section <consulate_dublin@mzv.cz>
Date: 2008/9/3
Subject:
To: Christian

Dera Sir,

to your query we would like to inform you that your wife has to apply for a visa first before she leave Ireland. She only has to present with her application form for visa her marriage certificate and your passport. There is no visa fee.

Regards

(...)
Consular Section
Last edited by ca.funke on Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:10 am, edited 12 times in total.

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Denmark

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:14 pm

Denmark (Visa NOT required) :)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xyz@um.dk>
Date: Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian


Dear Christian,

In order to apply for a visa for Denmark, please go to the Swedish embassy here in Ireland, since they are handling visas for Denmark. Their website is
http://www.swedenabroad.com/Page____73934.aspx
or google "Swedish embassy Dublin"

Hope you will have a good trip to Denmark.

Best regards
(...)
Second answer - sounds very precise to me, even detailing the mess. Same as Slovenia, but in writing. :)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xyz@um.dk>
Date: Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Christian

Sorry for not answering your question the first time.

Your wife with a EU4Fam-card does not need a visa if;
  • she is travelling together with her husband (EU-citizen)
  • can somehow prove that she is joining up with her EU citizen husband there.
Unfortunately these rules are not always well known for immigration officers at borders and airports. However they have been informed of the rules. If there are troubles of unawarity from the immigration officers, it will therefore eventually not block entry. Therefore travel with the EU4Fam-card and a passport is sufficient for your trip.

It is possible (but not necessary) to issue a visa, which is free and can be made in a few days. The visas for Denmark are handled by the Swedish embassy here in Dublin from the website:

http://www.swedenabroad.com/Page____73934.aspx

Have a good trip to Denmark.
Best wishes
(...)
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:25 am, edited 11 times in total.

ca.funke
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Estonia

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:14 pm

Estonia (Visa NOT required) :) : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents first)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Saatkond Dublinis uldaadress (e-mail) <embassy.dublin@mfa.ee>
Date: Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Subject: Visa Enquiry
To: Christian

Dear Sir,

Regarding your enquiry for a visa for Estonia-

Your wife will need a visa to travel to Estonia.

For applying for an Estonian visa she has to come to the Embassy in person and bring with her the following documentation:
  • Valid passport with two free pages
  • Re-entry visa for Ireland/Garda Immigration Card
  • 2 photos (4x5 cm)
  • Copy of your passport
  • Legalized original marriage certificate
As a spouse of an EU citizen (marriage certificate will be needed) she will be exempted from the visa fee

More information can be found http://www.estemb.ie/consular_information .

Embassy is opened from Monday till Thursday from 10am-2pm. Embassy will be closed on 20th of August

Regards,
(...)
The Estonian Embassy
Tel. 01 219 6730
Fax 01 219 6731
www.estemb.ie
Riversdale House
St Ann's
Ailesbury Road
Dublin 4
second reply - insisting :(
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Saatkond Dublinis üldaadress (e-mail) <embassy.dublin@mfa.ee>
Date: Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Visa Enquiry
To: Christian

The procedure and documents requested in my email are in accordance with EU Commission.

Regards,

(...)
The Estonian Embassy
Tel. 01 219 6730
Fax 01 219 6731
www.estemb.ie
Riversdale House
St Ann's
Ailesbury Road
Dublin 4
Finally - after bunches of more emails - thanks a lot :!: :)
---------- Original message ----------
From: Konsulaari sekretar (e-mail) <Konsek@mfa.ee>
Date: Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Subject: FW: Information given on your website
To: Christian

Dear Christian

Thank you for your letter. We took your information into account and we do confirm that EU citizens` family members, who in addition to the valid passport of the country of their citizenship present the residence card, which has been issued pursuant to the Directive 2004/38/EC bearing a text "Family member of a Union citizen" may enter Estonia without a visa.

However, please be advised that abolition of visas is applied only in case the family member travels together with the EU citizen or to the EU citizen. Visa-free stay may last up to 90 days during six months.

We regret the fact that there was incorrect information on our website.

Best Regards
(...)
Schengen Division
Consular Department
Last edited by ca.funke on Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:15 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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Finland

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:14 pm

Finland (Visa NOT required) :)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: xyz@formin.fi
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Subject: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr.,
Thank you for your message. The EU4Fam card is sufficient, your wife
does not need a visa to enter Finland in this case.

Hope you will have a nice stay in Finland.

Best regards,
Embassy of Finland
Dublin
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:26 am, edited 6 times in total.

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France

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:14 pm

la France (Visa required) :( : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: (...)@diplomatie.gouv.fr
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Subject: visa
To: Christian

Good morning

Your wife need a visa to go to France. We need 3 weeks for the process of the application.

You’ll find hereafter the list of requirements :
  • Passeport + 2 photos
  • Reentry visa to Ireland ( 3 months validity after the return date in Ireland)
  • Residency card (3 months validity after the return date in Ireland)
  • Bank statement for the last 2 months ( with full name and address)
  • Travel insurance / VHI, BUPA etc ….( with period of cover, zone of cover, policy number and surname)
  • Recent letter from the employer ( with position held in the company)
  • Last two pay slips
  • Flight tickets
If you are married , we need the certificate of marriage and the spouse’s passport

If you have children, we need the certificate of birth and a letter from the school

We are open between 2.00pm to 4 .00pm from Monday to Thursday and from 2 .00pm to 3.00pm on Friday.

If you have any complementary queries, do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards
The Visa officer

second answer - insisting :(
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: (...)@diplomatie.gouv.fr
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: visa
To: Christian

Good morning

I gave you the list of the documents to provide. We need all the documents.

Regards

Visa officer
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Germany

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:15 pm

Germany - no answer so far

In Germany's case I must say that "no answer" may be because they already know me (see countless other posts), so maybe they got a heart-attack upon reading my name ;) ...

Their official position can be seen here, so it's OK.[quote]If you are married to an EU-citizen and your Garda Card
is a “4EUFamâ€
Last edited by ca.funke on Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Greece

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:15 pm

Greece (Visa required) :( : (They sent an empty :!: email, asking for Visa and supplementary documents in an attachment)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Greek Embassy <greekembassy@eircom.net>
Date: 2008/8/26
Subject: Visa req
To: Christian
The attachement is available here.

backup-questions (as per first post) sent - no reply so far
  • In the attachment I wonder what the dividing line means?
  • If it WOULD mean that in the case of EU-marriage the certification and the other passport is enough, that'd be at least something.
  • If this means "if you're married this is additional" that'd be quite bad...
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:28 am, edited 16 times in total.

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Hungary

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:15 pm

Hungary - no answer so far
Last edited by ca.funke on Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Italy

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:16 pm

Italy (Visa NOT required) :)
---------- Original message ----------
From: Visa Office - Embassy of Italy Dublin <xzy@esteri.it>
Date: Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 23:38
Subject: Re: Visa necessary? No! - Petition to parliament
To: Christian

Dear Christian,

I'm sorry for replying so late, I had just started my vacations when you sent your email.

Then I was sick - now I'm better and back.

As you most probably know we always make it our commitment to reply to each and every email we get even if a bit late, so here is our answer.

Having read your email and the replies you received from other EU Embassies, I feel it is my duty to explain a bit more in detail rather than just give you a yes or no answer.

Just so you may understand everything a lot better, exactly how the whole system works. I can see from your email that you have not distinguished between an EU law and a Directive. So here goes:

When there is felt the need to effect a common approach and uniform treatment among the various EU member countries regarding any matter,the Council of Europe, whose expert various smaller working parties/Mixed committees (EU-Iceland/Norway/Switzerland) etc.etc.,on the particular subject matter, all come together in meetings to discuss and exchange ideas. Various proposals and counter proposals are made over a long period of time and put forward by each EU country's delegation, until there is a broad common consensis or an agreement reached by the various different EU membercountries. When there are no more doubts in any delegations minds, to put it very simply, and an agreement is finally reached, the porposals are all then put together one final time as an EU Directive on the particular matter. That is how CE/38/2004 or any other directives were born in the first place.

Now as far as I am aware any EU Directive is only that - a Directive. It is not an EU law or Regulation. All EU Directives remain only as directives until such time that each and every member government of all the member countries that form the EU, passes the necessary legislation in its own parliament or government, on each particular directive. Therefore when you talk about Directives CE/58/2004 or CE/38/2004, even though these directives were brought out in the year 2004, they were only ratified and adopted by the Irish Government as a law on the 30th of April 2006 and by our own italian Government on the 6th of February 2007 by Leglislative Decree nr. 30, granting the right to EU citizens and their non EU spouses to move and reside freely within the territory of any European member state.

If any EU country government still has not ratified and has not yet passed the necessary legislation on the above Directives, by bringing out its own necessary National Leglislative Decrees, then it stands to logic, that those countries will make any amount of problems for Non EU spouses even travelling together with their EU spouses to their particular EU country without the necessary Visas.

Before Italy ratified the above Directives by bringing out Italian laws on the above directives, all non EU spouses of EU nationals were required to be in possession of the relative visas to visit Italy even when travelling together. This was exactly the same in most EU countries, that is why the answers of different EU Embassies is not always the same.

Some countries still require visas to travel for non EU spouses travelling with their EU spouses and they will continue to do so unless and until such time that their own particular EU countries finally ratify the above EU directives.

If found to be without the necessary visas, all non EU spouses even though they were travelling with their EU spouses into Italy were dutifully arrested or speedily returned to their own EU countries by return flight and were denied entry in Italy. This was prior to the 6th of February 2007 - the date the Italian Government ratified and passed through its Italian Parliament the necessary legislation.

I cannot tell you with any certainty if all the member EU governments have as yet adopted and passed the necessary legislation on the above EU directives or not only that until such time that they do - it will be very difficult indeed for you to travel with your wife freely without any further problems - at least from those EU countries that have still to pass the necessary leglislation.

For Italy since the CE/38/2004 directive was passed and the required leglislation was issued on the 6th of February 2007, no EU spouse travelling with their Non EU Spouse require visas. They also do not require visas if travelling alone but can then prove that their EU spouses are resident in Italy.

Hoping to have given you a valid clear explanation on the matter and cleared up some of the confusion that exists in most peoples' minds.

Best regards
(...)
Visa Officer
Italian Embassy
Dublin
Last edited by ca.funke on Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Latvia

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:16 pm

Latvia (Visa NOT required) :)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Consulate in Ireland <consulate.ireland@mfa.gov.lv>
Date: Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr (...),

Thank you for your interest to travel to Latvia.

If your spouse holds a "4EUFam"-type Garda Card, she doed not need a visa to travel to Latvia, IF you are travelling TOGETHER WITH YOUR SPOUSE. If she is travelling on her own, she needs a Visa to travel to Latvia.

Be ready to present Garda Card, passport and an original of marriage certificate at the airport at the passport control.

We appologise for the late reply.

Sincerely,
(...)
Last edited by ca.funke on Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Lithuania

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:16 pm

Lithuania (Visa required) :( : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: (...) <xyz@urm.lt>
Date: Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

Dear Sir,
Your wife would need a visa to go to Lithuania. To make an appointment for a visa she would have to call the Embassy any business-day from 2 p.m. (tel. nr. 01 6688292).
Your wife would have to come on the appointed day and bring marriage certificate, her passport, her permission to stay in Ireland, copy of your passport and 1 picture.

Kind regards,
(...)
Pagarbiai,
(...)
Lietuvos Respublikos ambasada Airijoje
90 Merrion Road, Ballsbridge
Dublin 4, Ireland
Tel.: +353 1 6688292
Faksas: +353 1 6680004
http://ie.mfa.lt
Lovely work by the embassy (thanks a lot :!: ), but the responsible people in the ministry seem to be unaware :(
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xyz@urm.lt>
Date: Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Christian,
i have contacted the Visa Section in the MFA of the Republic of Lithuania and they confirmed, that according to the current procedures of the Republic of Lithuania your wife would be required to have a visa (the only exception is - if this is a transit travel through the airport).
Kind regards,
(...)

Pagarbiai,
(...)
Lietuvos Respublikos ambasada Airijoje
90 Merrion Road, Ballsbridge
Dublin 4, Ireland
Tel.: +353 1 6688292
Faksas: +353 1 6680004
http://ie.mfa.lt
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:29 am, edited 7 times in total.

ca.funke
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Luxemburg

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:17 pm

Luxemburg (Visa NOT required) :) : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents first)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ...@mae.etat.lu
Date: Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Applications are made between 10-11:45 mon-fri. At present applicants are
advised to allow 4 weeks for the visa process to complete.

Please find attached a visa application form and information sheet.

Visa Section
Luxembourg Embassy
London
reply to backup-questions (as per first post)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ...@mae.etat.lu
Date: Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr

If the EU4Fam-card has the wording ‘Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National’ your wife will not need a visa. Without this she will need a visa. She would be required to complete a visa application form and supply 2 photos, your passport, her passport and your marriage certificate. The visa would be free of course.

Are you living in Ireland? If so the visa application would have to be made at the Belgium embassy in Dublin. They process visas on our behalf.

Please feel free to PDF us a copy of the EU4Fam-card if you’re still unsure whether your wife is exempt from a visa or not.

Regards
(...)
followed up as folows:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: ...@mae.etat.lu

Dear Mr,

in the attachments you find our marriage-certificate, the passports and the 4EUFam-card.

The 4EUFam-card is issued according to Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 10. However, the Irish authorities consider the addition "EUFam" as marking the card to be issued for family-members of EU-citizens. As you can see it does not separately state "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National".

The Belgian embassy in Dublin informed us that this card is good for travel to Belgium. We already managed to enter Belgium in Brussels airport, but the entry caused some problems: The card was unknown to the official who initially checked our passports. After a phonecall of approx 5 minutes duration we were allowed to pass.

Thanks for considering the attached .pdf's in this regard.


Regards, Christian
Concluded by this: :)
---------- Original message ----------
From: ...@mae.etat.lu
Date: Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Subject: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr,

I have pleasure in confirming that your wife can travel to Luxembourg on her Irish 4EUFam-card without a visa. The Luxembourg authorities (border control, airport control) have been alerted to the existence of such a card and your wife should have no problem in entering Luxembourg.

Best regards,
(...)
Luxembourg Embassy
London
Last edited by ca.funke on Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:22 pm, edited 9 times in total.

ca.funke
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the Netherlands

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:17 pm

the Netherlands (Visa NOT required) :) :
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: DUB-INFO <DUB-INFO@minbuza.nl>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian


Dear Mr,

If you are travelling together, the EU farm card should be sufficient.

Kind regards

(...)
Ambassade van het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
160 Merrion Road
Dublin 4
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

ca.funke
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Poland

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:17 pm

Poland (Visa NOT required) :) :
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Konsulat RP w Dublinie <visa@dublin.polemb.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke


Dear Mr,

In response to your enquiry I would like to inform you that your wife does not need a visa to Poland if you are travelling together.
Please ensure you will have your marriage certificate and the GNIB Card with 4EUFam stamp with you.

I would also advise you to print out an appropriate extract of our webpage http://www.dublin.polemb.net/index.php?document=38 so that you can present it to border officers.

Kind regards,
(...)

Wydzial Konsularny Ambasady RP w Dublinie
Consular Section of the Embassy of Poland in Dublin

4-8 Eden Quay
Dublin 1
IRLANDIA

www.dublin.polemb.net
consul@dublin.polemb.net
paszporty@dublin.polemb.net
visa@dublin.polemb.net

tel. +353 - 1 - 871 8020
fax +353 - 1 - 872 7792
(the link provided gives nearly fully correct information, with the exception that this should also apply to Polish citizens.)
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:29 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Portugal

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:17 pm

Portugal - trying to get hold of them
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ...@dgaccp.pt
Date: Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Subject: Visa necessary
To: Christian

Dear Sir,
In regard to your question I advise you to contact the Portuguese Embassy in Dublin in order to obtain the necessary information.

Best wishes,
(...)

Ministério dos Negócios Estrangeiros – Portugal
Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Portugal

Direcção de Serviços de Vistos e Circulação de Pessoas
Department for Visa and Movement of Persons
Re-sent original question to ptembasseydublin@tinet.ie
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:30 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Romania

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:18 pm

Romania (Visa NOT required) :) : (asking for Visa, supplementary documents and a fee first, but then light is shed)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sectia consulara Dublin <ro_consulate@eircom.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Subject: FW: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

Yes, she needs visa.

1 application form to be downloaded from www.mae.ro
Passport to be valid at least 6 months
Green card to be valid at least 6 months
2 color photos
Flight booking
Accomodation booking
Bank statement not older than 3 days
35 Euros

It takes 4-5 working days

Regards

Second answer ???
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sectia consulara Dublin <ro_consulate@eircom.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian


Sorry for the information, your inquiry is the first of this kind.

You’ll find the information you need here http://www.politiadefrontiera.ro
I followed up as follows:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Sectia consulara Dublin <ro_consulate@eircom.net>

Dear Consular Section,

I checked the provided link ( http://www.politiadefrontiera.ro ), but could not find any information about Irish EU4Fam-cards.

The case I described must be rather rare, however I believe my wife and me should be allowed to enter Romania without a visa.

Could you forward this question to your ministry of foreign affairs, or whoever is responsible, and fill me in, please?

Otherwise we will just apply for a visa as per the normal process. Of course it would be nice if this could be avoided.

Thanks and regards, Christian
  • The answer was pasted in an email.
  • It seems whoever compiled the information below is in the know, but I wonder is this known at the border?
  • Only pasting the relevant part below :!: (The full email contained the full webpage pasted.)
  • They are the only ones that mention that passports of the non-EU-citizen may not be stamped :!:
  • The "non-stamping" is also in the law, but being able to travel is more important than any stamps, so I never bothered about this point.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sectia consulara Dublin <ro_consulate@eircom.net>
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian
  • (...full list can be seen here, I only pasted the relevant part)
  • Family members who are not citizens of the European Union, but who are holders of a valid document, attesting the residence on the territory of another state member in the capacity as family member of a citizen of the European Union, are exempt from visa requirement. The Border Police will not affix the entry or exit stamp on the passport of the persons belonging to this category.
  • (...)
Last edited by ca.funke on Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:38 am, edited 13 times in total.

ca.funke
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Slovenia

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:18 pm

Slovenia (Visa NOT required) :)

They rang me, which is a great service.
  • They described the situation exactly as it is, saying that
  • we do not need a visa but as
  • this is unfortunately not known to all immigration officials
  • we can (but do not have to) apply for a visa by
  • providing both passports and the marriage-certificate (only), and
  • the visa will then be issued, free of charge, after a few days,
  • just to avoid any possible complications on arrival.
  • Enjoy your stay in Slovenia.
That's the best and most precise answer so far :!: :) Couldn't have put it any better.

Edit: See also the answer of Denmark, which comes down to the same bottom line, but in writing :!:
Last edited by ca.funke on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Slovakia

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:18 pm

Slovakia (Visa required) :( : (asking for Visa and supplementary documents)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Consular Section of the Slovak Embassy <dublinconsulate@eircom.net>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Subject: visa
To: ca.funke


Please find attached visa application and requirements.

(application for schengen visa ENG.pdf)
(Visa requirements.doc)

Consular Section
Embassy of the Slovak Republic
20 Clyde Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Office hours: Tuesday & Thursday
9,30-12,00 hrs
Tel: 01-6600008
Fax:01-6600014
The following was received minutes after my email to all embassies:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Consular Section of the Slovak Embassy <dublinconsulate@eircom.net>
Date: Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary? No! - Petition to parliament
To: Christian


Good afternoon,
the Slovak Republic will automatically accept the cards for this purpose as soon as the Irish side officialy notifiys their position on issuance of these cards for the above purpose which has not happened so far. We were however assured that this should be done within next few days/weeks.
Any other EU residence cards are already accepted.
Until then we do recommend everyone to apply for visa (issued without fee) to avoid musunderstandings. As you may have noticed there are no substantial requirements applicable for visa issuance.

However by the time of your travel, the situation may change and the cards may already habe been recognised.
We shall keep record of your query and notify you as soon as the cards are accepted.

Consular Section
Embassy of the Slovak Republic
20 Clyde Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Office hours: Tuesday & Thursday
9,30-12,00 hrs
Tel: 01-6600008
Fax:01-6600014
I followed up immediately as follows:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary? No! - Petition to parliament
To: Consular Section of the Slovak Embassy <dublinconsulate@eircom.net>


Good afternoon,

Thank you for this useful information!

However, I do not really understand why Ireland should have to confirm if the 4EUFam-card can be used for this purpose:
  • Other EU and Schengen-countries already accept the card. (see here, this includes Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Denmark, Finnland, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovenia and Sweden)
  • Therefore it would be possible to travel to (for example) Austria, and then on to the Slovak Republic without any further check.
  • Furthermore, directive 2004/38/EC Article10 section1 simply sais "The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called 'Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen' (...) "
  • 4EUFam is issued under exactly this law, and should therefore already be accepted throughout all of the EU.
I hope that this information will be helpful towards establishing if this card should not already be accepted, maybe also working together with some of the other EU-embassies who already accept them?


Thanks and regards, Christian
Prompt reply - hoping this will be sorted soon.:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Consular Section of the Slovak Embassy <dublinconsulate@eircom.net>
Date: Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary? No! - Petition to parliament
To: Christian


Thank you very much for the advise.
It is appreciated. But at this stage, everything is clear already and we believe that it is only a matter of short time until the situation will be solved to everyones satisfaction.

Please, rest assured we will inform you about the changes, since we are seriosly dealing with the matter.

Best regards
Consular Section
Embassy of the Slovak Republic
20 Clyde Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Office hours: Tuesday & Thursday
9,30-12,00 hrs
Tel: 01-6600008
Fax:01-6600014
Last edited by ca.funke on Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:00 pm, edited 9 times in total.

ca.funke
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Spain

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:19 pm

Spain - no answer so far

Through posts of ashimashi and archigabe this seems to be OK as follows:
archigabe wrote:That's good news from the From the Spanish Embassy...

http://www.maec.es/subwebs/Embajadas/Du ... ublin.aspx
According to Directive 2004 / 38 EC possesion of a valid EU Fam residence card shall EXEMPT family members of EU citizens from the visa requirements, providing they accompany or join them. In any circumstances, EU citizens family members’ applications will be processed with due priority.
Last edited by ca.funke on Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Sweden

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:19 pm

Sweden (Visa NOT required) :) :
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xxx.yyy@foreign.ministry.se>
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: ca.funke

In principle, your wife should not need to apply for a visa since she has an Irish EU4-Fam-Card and you travel to Sweden together. She of course also needs to bring her passport.

REgards, (...)
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

ca.funke
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UK

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:19 pm

UK - no answer so far

ca.funke
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Norway

Post by ca.funke » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:29 pm

Norway - I'd really like to know, I'd say it's complicated
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Royal Norwegian Embassy in Dublin <emb.dublin@mfa.no>
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Christian,

I suggest you contact the Swedish Embassy regarding this. Since 6th May
this year, they are handling all visa request for the Scandinavian
countries. Their e-mail is ambassaden.dublin@foreign.ministry.se, and
their phone number is 01 474 4400.

Best regards,
(...)
Royal Norwegian Embassy, Dublin
Following up as follows, hoping it will yield a useful answer to a problem Norway did not create! (no answer so far)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: Royal Norwegian Embassy in Dublin <emb.dublin@mfa.no>

Dear Mr,

I actually contacted the Swedish Embassy in Dublin.

I was told that we do not need a visa for Sweden, as my wife holds an Irish residence-card for EU family members.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Foreign Ministry Se
Date: Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

In principle, your wife should not need to apply for a visa since she has an Irish EU4-Fam-Card and you travel to Sweden together. She of course also needs to bring her passport.
The problem I see is that Norway is inside Schengen, but not in the EU, which yields the situation ambiguous.

Following this we COULD effectively enter Norway via Sweden, showing Swedish immigration-officials our passports and the Irish residence-card, then traveling on to Norway without further checks. I just wonder if this would be legal if not in possession of a Schengen visa?

It would be nice to find out about this complicated situation.

Thanks a lot for you consideration,


Regards, Christian
Last edited by ca.funke on Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:16 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Iceland

Post by ca.funke » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:56 am

Iceland - I don't know about 2004/38/EC in EEA, but I guess what they say is right...

[quote]---------- Original message ----------
From: <icemb.london@utn.stjr.is>
Date: Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: Christian

Dear Mr.(...),

In response to your enquiry we would like to inform you that your wife would need a visa to visit Iceland.

Lebanese passport holders require a Schengen visa to visit Iceland. To verify this please visit the website of the Icelandic Directory of Immigration http://www.utl.is/english/visas/no-visa. As Iceland is not a member state of the EU the EU4 Fam card will not be sufficient to travel to Iceland so Schengen rules will have to apply.

To view exemptions from visa requirements to enter Iceland, please visit: http://eng.domsmalaraduneyti.is/laws-an ... ons/nr/860 and see Appendix 3.

Schengen visas for Iceland are arranged through the Swedish Embassy in Dublin, for those resident in Ireland. Their contact details are:

Embassy of Sweden
3rd floor, Block E
Iveagh Court
Harcourt Road
Dublin 2

Tel: 01-474 4400
Fax: 01-474 4450
Website: http://www.swedenabroad.com/Start____9497.aspx

Best regards / Bestu kveðjur,

(...)
Embassy of Iceland / Sendiráð Ã
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:36 am, edited 7 times in total.

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