4EUFam and fingerprints

EFTA was never part of EEC, they are termed as the outer seven, after their 7 founding members which includes Britain.

The Brits were indeed there, but they wanted to be part of the inner 6 or the EEC. No one forced them to come in. They joined at their own accord, as already pointed out to you. Countries like Switerzerland choose not to, and they are still part of EFTA, which has now been changed to EEA.

Even though Switzerland are part of EEA, they still had to sign a Freedom of Movement agreement with EU.

Therefore, whatever way you look at it, Freedom of movement comes as a package with free trade in an economic area.

Obie wrote:Even though Switzerland are part of EEA, they still had to sign a Freedom of Movement agreement with EU.

Therefore, whatever way you look at it, Freedom of movement comes as a package with free trade in an economic area.

I hate to disagree Obie, but Switzerland is NOT in the EEA.

2004/38/EC is valid throughout the EU (except some lovely places such as the UK illegally ignore it, even though they signed it, must be a bad case of memory-loss. But why should they care about inconvenient things such as "the law" anyway?). Through some strange mechanisms which I didn´t fully understand 2004/38/EC is also valid in the EEA. That´s been dealt with in this "Switzerland joins Schengen" thread.

As CH is NOT EEA, they voluntarily decided to sign a separate bilangual free-movement agreement with the EU.

Consequences of not being EEA is that border-controls continue to exist.

• When moving here you have to fill out papers as to what is in each of your moving boxes. ("15 towels", "cutlery", "...")
• When sending anything more than a usual letter, you have to stick a customs-declaration on the envelope. Feels like the stone-ages.

But it´s still nice to live here

You are perfectly correct, and thanks for the correction, there is a Swiss-EU bileteral agreement, which was signed between Switzerland and EU.

So basically they are the only country on the EFTA still, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein went on to join the EEA.

Obie wrote:...Liechtenstein went on to join the EEA.

Yes, and that´s really funny: Liechtenstein (FL) and CH have no checkpoints at their common border, as they form their own little internal "customs union". Specifically there are no custom-checks or passport-checks, it feels like a Schengen-internal border.

As FL is inside the EEA, I wonder why it shouldn´t be possible to officially transport whatever you want from Austria (EEA) to Liechtenstein (EEA), and then from Liechtenstein (FL-CH internal borderless zone) over to Switzerland.

Just a little extra - don't know if the link is permanent: This is me next to a FL/CH borderstone, no checkpoint nowhere, the "S" you see is for "Schweiz" (=CH), the other side bears a "L" for Liechtenstein

Oops - just realizing I´m totally off topic. Sorry.

That's quite a nice photo of yourself, next to the border stone. You seems quite relaxed and at ease, you also appear much younger than i would have imagined. So that border stone marks the official border between Liechtenstein and Switzerland. No border guard, no equivalent of Garda or UK Border agency guards, how amazing. It is nice, quite and peaceful. I will not mind spending a summers day at that lovely location, reading a book or something.

I think the trade loophole is quite interesting. Many people might not be aware of it. Why can't CH just remove controls for all EEA members.

Speaking of border control, i traveled to UK for familial reasons via Dublin today, and overheard a conversation between a passengers and a airline staff, arguing that the chaps Irish Resident card was not valid for travel to UK.

The Airlines staff was quite adamant, insisting that the Irish have implemented an immigration control for flights to the UK, and would not allow the passenger to board without an EEA family permit. She insisted that the chap has a distorted interpretation of the directive.

She said Article 10(2) refers to the countries that issued the resident card and not to any other countries officials.

It appears they have been given specialised expert training from UK border agency and Garda to deal with these issues, or more like to misinterpret the directive.

What i find astounding, is the fact that the Irish Immigration Authorities feel the need to implement border control for UK. I find it quite queer. I would have thought the UK are expert in that department, and are more than capable of doing it themselves.

Then again it might have been a mutual agreement. Considering the British house of Lords has rejected the idea of a border control between Ireland and UK, i think the brits would have thought getting their friend to do the dirty job will be a more subtle way of doing things.

I felt so sympathetic for the chap. The airlines staff stuck to their guns, and refused to issue him a boarding pass. He vowed to report the matter to the EU commission and Solvit, but i am unsure if anything productive will come out of it.

Obie thats the thing scared me most..and I know his complaints not gonna work...you know what I mean.UK is the biggest criminal I have ever seen..

ca.funke wrote:

Obie wrote:...Liechtenstein went on to join the EEA.

Yes, and that´s really funny: Liechtenstein (FL) and CH have no checkpoints at their common border, as they form their own little internal "customs union". Specifically there are no custom-checks or passport-checks, it feels like a Schengen-internal border.

As FL is inside the EEA, I wonder why it shouldn´t be possible to officially transport whatever you want from Austria (EEA) to Liechtenstein (EEA), and then from Liechtenstein (FL-CH internal borderless zone) over to Switzerland.

Just a little extra - don't know if the link is permanent: This is me next to a FL/CH borderstone, no checkpoint nowhere, the "S" you see is for "Schweiz" (=CH), the other side bears a "L" for Liechtenstein

Oops - just realizing I´m totally off topic. Sorry.

Ca.funke, the EEA is not a customs union and is not part of the EU customs union. For example, flying from France to the UK or any other EU member state, there are no customs. However, flying from France or any other EU member state to Norway, Iceland,Liechtenstein or Switzerland or vice versa, one has to go through customs. This will explain why what you mentioned could not work. The following links could shed some light.

http://www.efta.int/content/eea/policy-areas/goods/CTF

http://www.efta.int/content/eea/policy- ... om-matters

Obie wrote:What i find astounding, is the fact that the Irish Immigration Authorities feel the need to implement border control for UK. I find it quite queer. I would have thought the UK are expert in that department, and are more than capable of doing it themselves.

Then again it might have been a mutual agreement. Considering the British house of Lords has rejected the idea of a border control between Ireland and UK, i think the brits would have thought getting their friend to do the dirty job will be a more subtle way of doing things.

But it wasn't the "Irish Immigration Authorities" (as you call them), was it? It was staff working on behalf of the airline, whose superiors have probably fed them that nonsense about Article 10(2) referring only to the country that issued the Residence Card, because they're petrified about being fined by the UK.

I agree, the staff working on behalf of the airline are quite wrong - but you can't assume it has anything at all to do with the GNIB.

Hi Ben,

The reason why i referred to them as Irish Immigration Authorities rather than GNIB or INIS(DOJ), is for the benefit of readers of the thread who might not be familiar with those terms.

The Airlines lady correctly stated that the GNIB have started doing passport checks on depature, and it was certainly so. Prior to me entering the aircraft, i was quizzed by official about my drivers licence but was eventually let through, perhaps they were convinced afterall that i was british, because of the way i spoke and my place of birth.

Could somebody provide me with a link of EU documents proving that family members of EU citizen do not need to give their fingerprints? I would be very thankful. I would also like to know whether the Netherlands takes the fingerprints for RC or not.

hi yustynne,

there is no law explicitly prohibiting taking fingerprints.

They are not allowed to take them, as >>2004/38/EC<<, (Article 10, section 2) outlines what authorities may ask for, and this list is final. No authority may add anything to this list.

Article 10

Issue of residence cards

1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall
require presentation of the following documents:

(a) a valid passport;

(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relation-
ship or of a registered partnership;

(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registra-
tion system, any other proof of residence in the host
Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accom-
panying or joining;

(d) in cases falling under points (c) and (d) of Article 2(2),
documentary evidence that the conditions laid down
therein are met;

(e) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(a), a document issued by
the relevant authority in the country of origin or country
from which they are arriving certifying that they are depen-
dants or members of the household of the Union citizen, or
proof of the existence of serious health grounds which
strictly require the personal care of the family member by
the Union citizen;

(f) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(b), proof of the existence
of a durable relationship with the Union citizen.

>>This<< is the complaint I directed to the Commission in this regard, needless to say there was no substantial answer.

Regards, Christian

ca.funke wrote:>>This<< is the complaint I directed to the Commission in this regard, needless to say there was no substantial answer.

Talking of the devil: They replied today (27th November 2009) to my complaint dated 4th September 2008, so just a little more than one year.

The reply came as a .pdf, so I'll re-type the "substantial" part here:

commission wrote:(...)Currently, there is no explicit legal basis for the Member States to process the biometrics in residence cards for family members of EU citizens. This, however, does not mean that taking fingerprints is unlawful as the appropriate legal basis could also be provided in national legislation, if it is necessary for a specific purpose related to EU law.

The fingerprinting and the subsequent processing of the personal data must in particular be proportionate and in line with the (national and EC) legal provisions for the processing of personal data as reading, collection and storage of biometrics is "processing of personal data" as defined by Article 2 of Data Protection Directive 95/46/EC.

Yours sincerely(...)

Do I take the EU anywhere near serious anymore? I guess the answer is obvious.

ca.funke wrote:

ca.funke wrote:>>This<< is the complaint I directed to the Commission in this regard, needless to say there was no substantial answer.

Talking of the devil: They replied today (27th November 2009) to my complaint dated 4th September 2008, so just a little more than one year.

The reply came as a .pdf, so I'll re-type the "substantial" part here:

commission wrote:(...)Currently, there is no explicit legal basis for the Member States to process the biometrics in residence cards for family members of EU citizens. This, however, does not mean that taking fingerprints is unlawful as the appropriate legal basis could also be provided in national legislation, if it is necessary for a specific purpose related to EU law.

The fingerprinting and the subsequent processing of the personal data must in particular be proportionate and in line with the (national and EC) legal provisions for the processing of personal data as reading, collection and storage of biometrics is "processing of personal data" as defined by Article 2 of Data Protection Directive 95/46/EC.

Yours sincerely(...)

Do I take the EU anywhere near serious anymore? I guess the answer is obvious.

Hi Christian,

Seems the EU Commission are a fan of Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V.

Sadly.

http://kotekbesar.com/D18111.pdf

benifa wrote:Hi Christian,

Seems the EU Commission are a fan of Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V.

Sadly.

http://kotekbesar.com/D18111.pdf

Yep - exactly the same document, by the letter. Even the same signature.

After one year... I´m impressed. If I´d work like that, i´d have lost my job already.