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Any dual British/Irish Northern Ireland citizens there?

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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chaoclive
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Ireland

Any dual British/Irish Northern Ireland citizens there?

Post by chaoclive » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:30 am

Hi guys

I'm looking to find dual British/Irish Northern Irish citizens who have been successful in relying on either of their 2 citizenships to sponsor their non-EEA family member (in my case, Civil Partner) to come to the UK or Ireland.

I'm interested in people who have applied post-McCarthy.

I'm currently trying to decide on whether or not to renounce Irish citizenship, but there seems to be a group of people who think that I may not need to do this in order to be admitted to Ireland to work as a Brit and to take advantage of Surinder Singh (to move back to the UK) after a period of employment in the ROI.

Confused...

Apologies to the moderators for starting another topic on this, but I'm really looking to find some people who have actually done this in practice. The case law sounds fine, even if a bit complex, but there's no substitute to hearing from someone who has successfully completed their application.

Thanks so much in advance!
C

Monifé
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Post by Monifé » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:29 am

I am dual Irish/British. Never lived anywhere other than the Republic of Ireland. We applied before the McCarthy case. I first applied for a permanent residence certificate which was approved. We then applied under EU treaty rights for my (then) partner/fiancé. After 4 and a half months of processing, it was refused and the stated reason was because I was an Irish national (even though they issued me with a permanent residence certificate stating that I was a British national with the right of permanent residence in Ireland).

We then applied for leave to bring the matter before Judicial Review. The application was approved and we were waiting for a hearing date. Then the McCarthy decision happened and our solicitors advised us to withdraw the proceedings as it could have ended up dragging on for years and our position was not as strong due to that ruling. An order of costs was made against us.

We then put in our notification to marry, got married and waited over 9 months for the decision on the spouse of Irish national application.

For a more detailed view of our journey, you can look at my previous threads below.

The reason we thought EU1 would work for us.

Main reason there were such huge delays.

If you are applying for your partners residency in the republic on the basis of your British citizenship and you have only ever lived in the republic, I would definitely advise against it. If however you have lived in Northern Ireland (legally the UK) and are now living in the Republic and are applying on the basis of your British citizenship, then I believe you would be successful. The same goes for if you have lived and worked in another EU country.

Someone else might be able to provide a better insight into how the DOJ are handling these type of applications now as ours was over 3 years ago.
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:48 am

@ Monifé, so in the end you gave up the EU route and went down the Irish spouse route? I think that's what you've said.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Re: Any dual British/Irish Northern Ireland citizens there?

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:51 am

chaoclive wrote: Apologies to the moderators for starting another topic on this, but I'm really looking to find some people who have actually done this in practice.
I am quite happy for you to open this thread. It is in a different forum section and may get you some additional information than you would have got from your other thread. It would be good if you provided a link to your original thread.

Monifé
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Location: Dublin

Post by Monifé » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:45 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:@ Monifé, so in the end you gave up the EU route and went down the Irish spouse route? I think that's what you've said.
Yes and I regret listening to others (family and solicitors) about the EU route. I was quite young (22) and (most) of my family were against me marrying at that age, but it was probably more so the fact I was in love with a non-national.

If we had of got married in May 2010 (we had given our 3 months notice in February 2010 but my family intervened), my husband probably would have got his stamp 4 before the end of the year. Instead we had a grueling wait , a lot of solicitors fees for the various applications (they did the Judicial Review pro-bono, well for €1,000 for expenditure during the running of the case) and an €18,000 court order against us from the Chief State Solicitor (which we managed to get them to agree to us paying them €1,000).

What should have took 6/9 months, for us it took 2 and a half years.

So I would definitely always recommend taking the most simple route, even if it is not the most preferred route.

OP, can you give us a bit more info on the following and then people will be able to advise better:

1. Where were you born?
2. Where have you lived? List the countries.
3. Were you working in the above countries?
4. Where is your preferred country of choice to move with your civil partner?
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:14 pm

@ Monifé, I hope things have settled down for you now. Best of luck.

chaoclive
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Ireland

Post by chaoclive » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:42 pm

@ Mod: Sorry for starting a new thread on this...

Hi again

Just wanted to know if anyone has experience of applying for an a visa under the EU Treaty regulations (I'm British and plan to move to Ireland with my spouse/civil partner) with a hotel address?

We're currently living and working in China (he is Chinese) and I want to move back to Europe in the next year. We would be applying at the Irish Embassy in Beijing.

Problem is: I won't have a job lined up in Ireland before I go and we won't have a permanent address in Ireland either (I won't start renting until I get there) but I have a rough idea of which town/city I'd like to live in so we will find a hotel in the area to start of with.

Is it acceptable to provide a temporary address (hotel) on this application and then update the records after we get to Ireland and rent a place?

Is 'not having an address' a reason for refusal? With all the inefficiency in the immigration (no matter which country you are traveling to) and the fact that Ireland is tightening its immigration laws, I'd be devastated to find out that the application was rejected just because I hadn't rented a place to live yet.

Another quick query while I'm here: has anyone had any experience of moving between the EU rules and the Irish national spousal visa? I'm a dual Irish/British citizen but will renounce Irish citizenship soon (so I can enter with him from China). However, as the Irish rules only require 3 years of residence in Ireland to be awarded permanent residence, would it be possible that, after returning to Ireland, I could reclaim Irish citizenship and then apply for the spouse visa for him? It sounds a bit iffy and, if we were likely to get into trouble, we could just wait for the 5 years to pass so that he can get citizenship in his own right.

Thanks a lot!
Clive

chaoclive
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Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:49 pm
Ireland

re: Monife

Post by chaoclive » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:52 pm

Hi there

Thanks for sharing your story and i'm sorry that you had such an ordeal! i hope that it all turned out well in the end and wish you both all the best :)

re: myself.

-I was born in Northern Ireland (got a British passport really early, about 10 years old and an Irish one when I was 22; although I've had the right to Irish citizenship from birth)
-I've worked in Germany in the past but long before I met my partner (unlikely to be useful)
-I am not fussy about where we live. The most important thing is getting him back with me when the time is right. All my work visas are in my British passport so I can't renounce British citizenship at this time - that would cause visa nightmares for my employer (and myself). However, I'm quite willing to renounce Irish citizenship if it makes the process easier. Then I plan to apply for the Irish equivalent of a UK EEA Family Permit at the Irish Embassy in Beijing. I'd then live in Ireland and see how things go. If all goes well on the job front, I'll stay in Ireland. If not, I'll go to the UK to see what's available and can use Surinder Singh to get him a UK EEA Family Permit.

Still confused...haha.

Thanks for your comments and help!

Take care
C

Monifé
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Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:42 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by Monifé » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:57 pm

chaoclive wrote:Just wanted to know if anyone has experience of applying for an a visa under the EU Treaty regulations (I'm British and plan to move to Ireland with my spouse/civil partner) with a hotel address?
No first hand experience however based on experiences of people I know and what I have read on this forum in the last 4 years, this would not be recommended. When applying for a residence card under EU Treaty Rights, there are specific documents you need to provide to prove you are resident in Ireland. You cannot provide these while living in a hotel.
chaoclive wrote:Problem is: I won't have a job lined up in Ireland before I go and we won't have a permanent address in Ireland either (I won't start renting until I get there) but I have a rough idea of which town/city I'd like to live in so we will find a hotel in the area to start of with.
Not a problem. You and your partner have an unconditional right to reside in Ireland for up to 3 months before you have to be exercising treaty rights (i.e. working) and you don't need to apply for his residence card straight away. You can do it at any time within those 3 months.
chaoclive wrote:Is it acceptable to provide a temporary address (hotel) on this application and then update the records after we get to Ireland and rent a place?
Better to have your documents in order before you apply for the residence card.
chaoclive wrote:Is 'not having an address' a reason for refusal? With all the inefficiency in the immigration (no matter which country you are traveling to) and the fact that Ireland is tightening its immigration laws, I'd be devastated to find out that the application was rejected just because I hadn't rented a place to live yet.
Not an outright reason for refusal but could give you ALOT of headaches.
chaoclive wrote:I'm a dual Irish/British citizen but will renounce Irish citizenship soon (so I can enter with him from China).
I am not sure you would need to renounce your Irish citizenship. It is highly likely that the Irish Immigration would have no idea you hold an Irish passport unless you tell them so. If your birth certificate is British, you have a UK tax number (and no Irish tax/pps number) and a British passport, I think you would be ok. The fact that you have lived in Northern Ireland (basically UK) and other EU countries, already affords you rights as an economic migrant worker within the terms of the directive.
chaoclive wrote:However, as the Irish rules only require 3 years of residence in Ireland to be awarded permanent residence, would it be possible that, after returning to Ireland, I could reclaim Irish citizenship and then apply for the spouse visa for him? It sounds a bit iffy and, if we were likely to get into trouble, we could just wait for the 5 years to pass so that he can get citizenship in his own right.
I had this conversation with my solicitor when we were going down the EU route. Basically, the answer is yes. You could apply for a residence card for your partner under EU Treaty Rights and then 3 years down the line, your partner could apply for citizenship based on your relationship BUT only if you have been in a registered civil partnership for 3 years while living legally in Ireland.
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

Monifé
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Location: Dublin

Re: re: Monife

Post by Monifé » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:12 pm

chaoclive wrote:Hi there

Thanks for sharing your story and i'm sorry that you had such an ordeal! i hope that it all turned out well in the end and wish you both all the best :)

re: myself.

-I was born in Northern Ireland (got a British passport really early, about 10 years old and an Irish one when I was 22; although I've had the right to Irish citizenship from birth)
-I've worked in Germany in the past but long before I met my partner (unlikely to be useful)
-I am not fussy about where we live. The most important thing is getting him back with me when the time is right. All my work visas are in my British passport so I can't renounce British citizenship at this time - that would cause visa nightmares for my employer (and myself). However, I'm quite willing to renounce Irish citizenship if it makes the process easier. Then I plan to apply for the Irish equivalent of a UK EEA Family Permit at the Irish Embassy in Beijing. I'd then live in Ireland and see how things go. If all goes well on the job front, I'll stay in Ireland. If not, I'll go to the UK to see what's available and can use Surinder Singh to get him a UK EEA Family Permit.

Still confused...haha.

Thanks for your comments and help!

Take care
C
Again, no first hand experience of Surinder Singh (it was our last option) but from reading up on it, the following may be of note:

- Work in Ireland for reasonable amount of time. They don't really specify and it is always up for debate but if it was me, I would allow at least 6 months. Keep all payslips and documents.
- Keep all bills and documents relating to residence and try and have documents in both names and if that is not possible, some in yours and some in his.

Best of luck.
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:00 pm

@OP, can you continue here please?

Brigid from Ireland
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Post by Brigid from Ireland » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:12 pm

It is a pity that you have an Irish passport, as this means that you have chosen to be an Irish citizen. Given that you were born in NI, if you had not acquired an Irish passport, you could claim successfully to be British only, and the Republic accepts this (historical reasons, Republic of Ireland did not want to impose Irish citizenship on those who preferred to be British). Basically anyone born in NI can choose to be Irish or British, and state officials must accept their decision. You have chosen to be both, as you got the passport from both. You can renounce Irish citizenship if you wish, and current law allows you to reclaim it later, but the right to reclaim citizenship may change.

I think that you have some options. Given that you have worked outside the Republic of Ireland, (Germany and China, based on what you say) I think you have a fair chance of successfully claiming to be a migrant worker if you choose to re-locate to the Republic of Ireland, particularly as Ireland is not your last place of employment within the EU.

Another option is for you to travel alone to UK mainland, work there for a short period of time (say 6 months) and then when you re-locate to Republic of Ireland you are definitely a migrant worker and can apply for your spouse to join you. If you choose this option then you could obviously work in Ireland for six months and then re-locate to UK as an EU migrant worker with your non EU spouse.

So this is easy to do, but may involve a six month separation, in the worst case scenario.

If it were my choice, I would apply for the spouse to come to Ireland with me, a UK passport holder who has previously worked in NI and Germany and China, as the spouse of an EU migrant worker who is looking for work in Republic of Ireland. If this is refused you have an alternative route which definitely works, just involves six months separation.
BL

chaoclive
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Ireland

Spouse Visa

Post by chaoclive » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:31 am

Thanks for all your answers guys!

I'm now toying with the idea of having my partner apply for an Irish spouse visa (obviously unrelated to the UK and EC Treaty Rights). Dual N. Irish (Irish/Brit) citizen working in China. UK Civil partnership registered with Chinese national in 2011.

Couple of questions to bounce off you guys.

1) I have not been able to find guidance as to the financial threshold
required to be capable of subsisting without recourse to public funds on
the INIS website. Is any specific guidance available on this? I have an
amount of 20,000GBP in my Northern Irish based bank accounts and the
equivalent of 6,000GBP in my Chinese bank account. My partner also has the
equivalent of 6,000GBP in his Chinese bank account. By the time I return to
Ireland this amount will have further increased. Do these figures seem
feasible?

2)I would not expect finding a job of some sort to be a major problem. However, I may not have secured a job offer before my civil partner applies for the visa. Will this be an issue? Is it a requirement of the spouse visa that I have a secured position in Ireland before my partner applies? I note that the INIS website states that pay-slips should be submitted. Is this an absolute requirement in all cases. We met in China whilst I was studying here and I have worked here ever since to ensure that we can be together. Due to this, I have not worked in Europe since 2006. Therefore, without leaving him to go back to Ireland first, I would not be able to provide pay-slips when he applies.

3) As I used to work for a bank and was sent to China
to work on a project (organized out of London), my Chinese
visas are all in my British passport. Would this be an issue when applying
for the visa in Beijing, as the INIS website states that I must be able to
provide that I, the Irish citizen, has been living in the other country
legally. Being a dual citizen, is it possible for me to provide evidence of
living legally in China by way of Chinese visas in my British passport?
Would this be considered sufficient? I have stamps in my Irish passport for
when we have travelled to other countries/areas together on holiday (e.g.
Hong Kong/Malaysia).

4) My permanent address is in Northern Ireland and I would need to rent a
house in the State on my return (I am currently living in China).Would this
preclude him from applying for the visa? Do I need to first of all rent
accommodation in the State and then have him apply for the visa after this
is sorted?

Brigid from Ireland
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Post by Brigid from Ireland » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:33 pm

Finance: A couple is entitled to 188 plus 124 euro per week on social welfare, plus free accommodation worth about 600 per month. So I think your savings are fine, as they show that you can support your family without recourse to social welfare for a long time.

Chinese visas in British passport are fine.

I would not rent a house until after the visa is sorted out, this is an expense you do not need to incur for an empty house. It is better to keep your money and show that you could afford to rent a house if the visa was granted.
BL

chaoclive
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Ireland

Post by chaoclive » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:50 pm

Thanks a lot Brigid! :)

chaoclive
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Ireland

Post by chaoclive » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:57 am

Just had another useless answer from the Embassy. They just asked me to see their website (which doesn't even mention moving back to Ireland from another country with your spouse/civil partner).

All I wanted to ask was the address thing (no address in the State; temporary residence in hotel for the purposes of the visa and then rent an apartment later).

I'm guessing that they will assess this in the application - therefore, I'd probably be best renting in advance (by myself) and then updating the rent book to include my partner's name in the future.

Any experience out there? I'm sure I'm not the only one applying outside the EU to take a spouse/civil partner back to Ireland :(

chaoclive
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Ireland

Post by chaoclive » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:54 pm

Is there an option for the spouse of an Irish national (spouse visa holder) apply for PR at 3 years? Or do they only have the chance to apply for citizenship?

My partner won't want to change his passport so early (he has some business back home and Irish passport holders need a visa for his country) but would like to get PR to make traveling back and forward to Ireland easier. He may apply for citizenship later in the future.

His country of origin doesn't accept dual citizenship.

amiramum
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Post by amiramum » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:26 pm

If u hold both irish passport and british and u want ur partner to join u in the uk u dont need to go live in south of ireland and its not irish status u would have to give up it British. U can renounce ur british citizenship and be classed as irish eu citizen living in uk. U hen xan apply for eea family permit for u other half to come and join un straight to uk no ireland involved...

seany
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i ahve dual citizenship Irish/British

Post by seany » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:07 pm

Hello people i hold British passport because i was born in England,my parents are irish so i have also an irish passport
just wondering can i get a Uk dependent visa for my baby who is in the Philippines bearing in mind i live in Ireland but have lots af family relation in the UK.

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