Canadian, married to Irish citizen 18 yrs need visa/passport

Hi,


Max

maxxxeee wrote:Hi,

I am a Canadian citizen married to an irish citizen for 18 years with 2 kids 9 & 12, wife is also canadian citizen, we currently reside in Canada and my wife has been here for 19 years my kids are canadian born and citizens of Canada only I need some info answered or any advice.

We are contemplating moving to Ireland or possibly to another European country in the near future (3-6 months)

Can I get an Irish passport, can my kids get one ?

Your children probably can get one. If your wife was born in Ireland, then the children are automatically Irish citizens (by descent) : just get them Irish passports.

As for you, you're probably out of luck, sorry. It used to be possible to apply for Irish citizenship based on marriage alone, but that facility was closed to new applicants on 30 November 2005. Did you not look into this before now?

You would need to live in Ireland for 3 years and then apply for Irish citizenship by naturalisation. Processing time for naturalisation is anecdotally 2-3 years at the moment, so it would be a long wait.

If we decide to go to another EU country can I work there since my wife is Irish or do I need a special permit or will an irish passport/permit (if I can obtain it) allow me to work/live there?

An Irish passport would work, however it seems you can't get one right now.

Your wife could sponsor you into another EU country as the spouse of an EU national. However bear in mind that this does not necessarily give you an automatic route to citizenship in another EU country.

Is the United Kingdom an option? Because of the special position of Irish citizens in the UK, she ought to be able to sponsor you for a normal UK spouse visa (rather than an EU permit). The advantage of this is that as you've lived together for 4+ years, you would get immediate permanent residence in the UK.

You would be able to become naturalised British after 5 years.

maxxxeee, i agree with all that Jaj has outlined. Under EU Treaty rights, you can live and work anywhere in the EU with your wife and kids, but you will must apply for an EEA family permit to do so

If you decide to come to Ireland, you can apply for a D-Spouse visa which entitles you to work in Ireland as the spouse of an Irish Citizen. You can apply for this visa at the Irish Embassy. Processing time is 2-3 months.

Jaj: Can his wife really apply for a spouse visa since they are both residing in Canada? I thought that as a non-UK citizen, she had to first be resident in the UK to sponsor her husband on a spouse visa?

scrudu wrote:Jaj: Can his wife really apply for a spouse visa since they are both residing in Canada? I thought that as a non-UK citizen, she had to first be resident in the UK to sponsor her husband on a spouse visa?

That's not what the Immigration Rules say. It's no different to a case where a person has Right of Abode (quite a few Canadians have this).

You are in a really simple position. All you need to do is get on a plane and fly to Europe. That is all. You do not need to apply for anything.

As the partner of an EU citizen, you have very similar rights to your wife (though your rights are initially dependent on her also exercising them). Your children have the same rights as you do, as well as dependent parents or grandparents.

A good straight forward summary is at given by the UK "home office" at http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/applyi ... unationals

Exactly the same EU rules applies if you and your wife decide to move to the Germany, or (almost) any other EU country.

The only possible restriction and hassle is ironically if you decide to move to Ireland. There she will NOT be exercising her Treaty Rights (since she is an Irish citizen). I am not sure what Ireland will require. BUT if you first move to the UK to live, and then move to Ireland, then she HAS been exercising her Treaty Rights and you are again covered by EU law and are free of restriction in moving to Ireland.

You will get more details from the Irish implementation of EU Directive/2004/38/EC
STATUTORY INSTRUMENT
S.I. No. 226 of 2006
European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006
http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039E882/ ... Q6PEJEW-en

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:You are in a really simple position. All you need to do is get on a plane and fly to Europe. That is all. You do not need to apply for anything.

It is necessary to obtain the EEA Family Permit before leaving for the United Kingdom, as far as I am aware.

Also, your post ignores the fact that going for an EEA Family permit for the UK means a 5 year wait for permanent residence status. As the original poster has been married over 4 years, permanent residence could be obtained immediately by applying for a spouse visa under normal UK rules.

Permanent residence is a prerequisite - in the United Kingdom, anyway - for citizenship. And in other countries, there is no EEA obligation to make citizenship available - ever.

If he wants "permanent residence status" right away, then the EEA Family Permit may be worth checking out. And that is useful if he wants to start the clock ticking now for the 5 year residence requirement for UK citizenship.

But if he just wants to work and live, it is not needed.

First, I think the European law is clear and says that the family member gets the same treatment as the EU family member. Remember that he has a Canadian passport and so requires no visa to physically enter the UK.

The section
How to apply under European Law of http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/applyi ... unationals is quite explicit.

How to apply under European Law

If you are an EEA national and wish to be issued with confirmation of your right of residence in the United Kingdom you can apply for a Registration Certificate, using form EEA1. If your family members are EEA nationals they have the same rights to live and work in the United Kingdom as you and can also apply for a Registration Certificate. They should be included on the EEA 1 application form. However, there is no requirement for EEA nationals living in the United Kingdom to apply.

Your non-EEA national family members can apply for a Residence Card which confirms that they have a right to live with you in the United Kingdom. They can apply using form EEA2. The Residence Card will normally be valid for 5 years and takes the form of an endorsement that is placed in their passport.

Note that it is probably worth getting a "residence card" put in your passport once you are here as it may mean you can use the EU line at the airport, which is often (or used to be in the past) a lot shorter. But with a "residence card" in your passport, immigration officials are forbidden to stamp entry stamps in your passport when you arrive in the UK, so you will have to keep careful track of your travel dates in case you want to apply later for UK citizenship.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:If he wants "permanent residence status" right away, then the EEA Family Permit may be worth checking out.

But the EEA Family Permit is not permanent residence!

And that is useful if he wants to start the clock ticking now for the 5 year residence requirement for UK citizenship.

But why wait 5 years when one could be a British citizen within 3 years by obtaining a spouse visa?

But if he just wants to work and live, it is not needed.

There is no way that employment in the UK could be obtained without the appropriate visa or permit.

Note that it is probably worth getting a "residence card" put in your passport once you are here as it may mean you can use the EU line at the airport

Not if you are a non-EEA national.

JAJ wrote: But the EEA Family Permit is not permanent residence!

Thank you for the correction.

JAJ wrote: But why wait 5 years when one could be a British citizen within 3 years by obtaining a spouse visa?

Citizenship is a whole other topic. But in thinking about it, I don’t think there is any normal way for either of them to get UK citizenship in less than 5 years residency plus the application time, and that is only if they settled here on the basis of something other than an EEA Treaty Right.

JAJ wrote: There is no way that employment in the UK could be obtained without the appropriate visa or permit.

Interesting problem since an EEA family permit is not a visa and is not a residence permit. It is only “a form of entry clearance”. Any idea how this is solved presently?

I should clearly say that I was strictly wrong with about the UK’s EEA family permit. UK law says that it is required. But UK and EU law also explicitly says that the family of an EU citizen is not to be turned away at the border because of lack of visa or travel documents without first giving them “every reasonable opportunity” to demonstrate that they have a right of residence because of their relationship.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Citizenship is a whole other topic. But in thinking about it, I don’t think there is any normal way for either of them to get UK citizenship in less than 5 years residency plus the application time, and that is only if they settled here on the basis of something other than an EEA Treaty Right.

An EEA citizen or holder of an EEA Family Permit may normally obtain UK permanent residence after 5 years.

After holding permanent residence for 12 months, it's possible to apply for British citizenship by naturalisation, provided there is a total of 5 years legal residence in the UK.

If married to a British citizen, only 3 years legal residence is needed and there is no minimum time to hold permanent residence. However, permanent residence must be held. So if the spouse of a British citizen comes to the UK under EEA rules, it won't be possible to naturalise after 3 years. It will be necessary to wait until permanent residence is obtained (5 years).


So where there is a choice between applying under the Immigration Rules then applicants must bear in mind:

- permanent residence is available either immediately or in 2 years under the Immigration Rules, but only after 5 years under EEA rules
- British citizenship will be available, depending on the visa route (Immigration Rules or EEA rules) and whether the (legally married) spouse or civil partner is British, after a time period between 3 and 6 years.

Big difference.

There may also be problems under the EEA Rules obtaining permanent residence if the EEA partner is not "exercising Treaty Rights". While working and studying are ok, for example, being a stay-at-home parent is a grey area that has anecdotally caused problems for others.

The people who have a "choice" include cases where the spouse is:

- dual British/EEA citizen
- an Irish citizen
- a Malta or Cyprus citizen with Right of Abode
- an EEA citizen with permanent resident status
- a British citizen previously resident in another EEA state


In other EEA states the road to citizenship may be a lot more complex than in the United Kingdom. People contemplating living in another EEA state may want to take this into account.

JAJ wrote: There is no way that employment in the UK could be obtained without the appropriate visa or permit.

Interesting problem since an EEA family permit is not a visa and is not a residence permit. It is only “a form of entry clearance”. Any idea how this is solved presently?

The EEA Family Permit is acceptable as evidence of work rights in the UK.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/lawand ... ourdefence

"A passport or other travel document or a residence document issued by the Home Office which is endorsed to show that the holder has a current right of residence in the United Kingdom as the family member of a named national of a State which is a party to the European Economic Area Agreement or any other agreement forming part of the Communities Treaties which confers rights of entry to or residence in the United Kingdom, and who is resident in the United Kingdom."

I should clearly say that I was strictly wrong with about the UK’s EEA family permit. UK law says that it is required. But UK and EU law also explicitly says that the family of an EU citizen is not to be turned away at the border because of lack of visa or travel documents without first giving them “every reasonable opportunity” to demonstrate that they have a right of residence because of their relationship.

Arriving as a tourist with an intention to stay longer in the country is almost always a bad idea. Firstly, an airline may refuse to carry someone on a one way ticket (grey area). Secondly, even if entry is not refused on arrival, there will be a delay in working, accessing healthcare etc while the right permit is sorted out.

Because neither of them is a British citizen, they will not be able to use the 3 year option. But we agree that if getting citizenship for him is a core goal for them, then it is worth considering alternatives to the EEA basis for residency.

JAJ wrote: Arriving as a tourist with an intention to stay longer in the country is almost always a bad idea. Firstly, an airline may refuse to carry someone on a one way ticket (grey area). Secondly, even if entry is not refused on arrival, there will be a delay in working, accessing healthcare etc while the right permit is sorted out.

I agree that arriving as a tourist with intention of staying longer is a very bad idea, and I was not suggesting that. You need to be open at the border about what your intentions are. But you also have some rights as an EU citizen and as the accompanying family of an EU citizen.

You can go on a backpacking trip to other member states, drink too much wine and then work legally in whatever country you run out of money. Or you can move to a country (with no money in your bank account and no health care) to look for work and then immediately start work when you find it. If you want to stay for longer than 3 months, then you may (or may not) need to complete formalities to extend your stay to 5 years, and then again to extend it to permanent.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Because neither of them is a British citizen, they will not be able to use the 3 year option.

Agreed. I shouldn't have mentioned it. The citizenship requirement is 5 years.

But the 3 year option is available in cases where the spouse is a British citizen, or is eligible (and willing) to become a British citizen in the next few years.

However permanent residence is still important for other reasons. For example, it protects the non-EEA family member if the family breaks up after arrival in the UK.

I agree that arriving as a tourist with intention of staying longer is a very bad idea, and I was not suggesting that. You need to be open at the border about what your intentions are.

You might not get as far as the border if an airline refuses to carry you.

But you also have some rights as an EU citizen and as the accompanying family of an EU citizen.

You can go on a backpacking trip to other member states, drink too much wine and then work legally in whatever country you run out of money. Or you can move to a country (with no money in your bank account and no health care) to look for work and then immediately start work when you find it. If you want to stay for longer than 3 months, then you may (or may not) need to complete formalities to extend your stay to 5 years, and then again to extend it to permanent.

No reputable British employer would employ a non-EEA/Swiss citizen without the relevant permit in their passport, EU family member rights or not.

Why make a simple thing complicated? Surely it's a lot better to just get the permit before leaving for the UK?

Why make a simple thing complicated? Surely it's a lot better to just get the permit before leaving for the UK?

I think there are lots of reasons to get the EEA family permit in advance, and I am sure that if they provide quick fast service and make it easy and cheap for people to obtain the EEA permit, then most people will do it before they travel.

It is clearly designed to reduce the staffing needed at UK airports (and speed up lines) by doing, as it says, a form of preclearance.

If you have any sort of complicated or potentially questionable situation, I think it can be very worthwhile rather than having to resolve it at the airport. If you only recently got married or you have been married 10 years and your marriage certificate is in an unusual language like Mongolian, then I would argue it is essential.

And if you need to prove you can work, again it may be helpful.