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Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

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Bealtaine
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Bealtaine » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:37 am

I appreciate where you’re coming from and thus the discretion of the minister for cases where one travels for business.
This guy travelled for 3 days out of 100 days for business.
The Judge mentioned that the minister does not have discretionary powers but on what basis was that said? Where does it mention in the law that s/he doesn’t? When one reads ‘the written word’, one has to apply context and understanding in that you cannot break up part of a sentence/phrase - everything has to fit together in unison and harmony.

Keggers
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Keggers » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:42 am

Fair point - had for some reason thought that he had been travelling primarily on business, same as myself, but at 97 days holidays then I see your point. I do still think a clearer distinction / exception needs to be made for reasonable business travel though. Even a clear, black and white rule on what counts as a day outside the country would be of help (eg. is the day you leave counted, the day you get back,etc. - from reading on here this all depends on which team processes your application and their mood on the day).

markem
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:11 am

Keggers wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:42 am
... a clear, black and white rule on what counts as a day outside the country would be of help (eg. is the day you leave counted, the day you get back,etc... )
It is unbelievable that simple things like this are not written down on the application form or their website. If just 1% of applicants need to ask them this question that's 100+ phone calls or emails per year that could be avoided.

This is exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said...
markem wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:23 pm
...I would guess there is 20% to 30% of waste in the system.

zaza7625
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by zaza7625 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:18 pm

I wonder what will be next for those people who already awaiting approvals after second stage letter. Will they be all refused or other decision will be reached. Even those application who are straightforward and does not need plenty checks. For example kids application or applications which has have been stepped over second stage?

markem
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:42 pm

zaza7625 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:18 pm
I wonder what will be next for those people who already awaiting approvals after second stage letter. Will they be all refused or other decision will be reached. Even those application who are straightforward and does not need plenty checks. For example kids application or applications which has have been stepped over second stage?
Section 16 of the Act gives the Minister power to dispense with conditions of naturalisation in certain cases (e.g. Irish associations). It is possible that they could go ahead with those cases. I don't think they will though, as it would be messy to organise and exercising discretion is part of the issue in the first place and could create an industry of appeals.

My guess is that everything will continue to be on hold until either:
a) the Court of Appeal will agree with the High Court, the Minister will get the law changed, and we'll be back to business as usual; or
b) the Court of Appeal will disagree with the High Court, and we'll be back to business as usual.

markem
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:48 pm

Bealtaine wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:37 am
The Judge mentioned that the minister does not have discretionary powers but on what basis was that said? Where does it mention in the law that s/he doesn’t?
Careful reading of Section 15...
Upon receipt of an application for a certificate of naturalisation, the Minister may, in his absolute discretion, grant the application, if satisfied that the applicant...

... has had a period of one year's continuous residence in the State immediately before the date of the application and, during the eight years immediately preceding that period, has had a total residence in the State amounting to four years.
It's that little yellow "if"... he only has discretion if the applicant had a year's continuous residence. The judge defines continuous in very narrow sense... concluding that the Minister doesn't have discretion.

botabo
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by botabo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:38 pm

Sorry for being boring and annoying...
For those who are just waiting for letter of ceremony, when is the next date for a possible and hopeful update? Or there is no date at all, we keep just waiting?
Thank you.

saleamcrown
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by saleamcrown » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:51 pm

There’s nothing in their schedule next week about citizenship  . Do what will happen if the minister still sleep

markem
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:57 pm

botabo wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:38 pm
For those who are just waiting for letter of ceremony, when is the next date for a possible and hopeful update? Or there is no date at all, we keep just waiting?
We have to wait until there is a ruling from the Court of Appeal. That could be a week, two weeks or a month... my guess is that the public attention will mean it will be out within a couple of weeks. What happens after that depends on the ruling...
markem wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:42 pm
My guess is that everything will continue to be on hold until either:
a) the Court of Appeal will agree with the High Court, the Minister will get the law changed, and we'll be back to business as usual; or
b) the Court of Appeal will disagree with the High Court, and we'll be back to business as usual.
Scenario a) will take at least a couple of weeks longer for a ceremony than scenario b).

markem
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by markem » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:00 pm

saleamcrown wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:51 pm
There’s nothing in their schedule next week about citizenship  . Do what will happen if the minister still sleep
What schedule? If you're talking about the Court of Appeal their ruling could be issued in writing. If you're talking about the Oireachtas then they won't schedule anything until the ruling. It needs to be resolved in the courts before the law can be changed.

Ali112
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Ali112 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:17 pm

Will all the minor (children) their cases would be put on hold ?? As they are excempted from oath ceremony!
I love to know if this has impacted minor applications ?

littlerr
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by littlerr » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:59 pm

Ali112 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:17 pm
Will all the minor (children) their cases would be put on hold ?? As they are excempted from oath ceremony!
I love to know if this has impacted minor applications ?
The court ruling has nothing to do with the ceremony. The continuous residency requirement applies to all naturalisation applications. The minister cannot now legally grant any approval if the person is out of the state for 1 second.
And because it is virtually impossible for them to know who had been out, they will not send out any approval at all.

Ali112
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Ali112 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:20 pm

Well it’s a joke ! And I can fully understand and feel the pain of many who are waiting !

In my case my son could get the Irish passport directly but I was just a month short on my 3 yrs stamp which make him no eligible for passport and his mother was literally may be days short (as EU citizen) but ow we both are naturalized 2016/17 and technically they should bring legislation to scrap this lengthy process if parents get Naturalisation and if child is born here they should automatically give them passport.

I work in a well known global company and my colleague laugh at how the law in one of the developed country is !!

Any way I hope court have ruling as soon as possible and people should be out of limbo situation

aneelrahim
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by aneelrahim » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:52 am

'It's like I'm in a prison': Fears citizenship applications are facing years-long backlogs

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-a ... 1-Oct2019/

mrrobot
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by mrrobot » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:57 am

aneelrahim wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:52 am
'It's like I'm in a prison': Fears citizenship applications are facing years-long backlogs

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-a ... 1-Oct2019/
Saying that it’s like a prison is just so disrespectful to the whole country. Shame on this person. You live here voluntarily and no one owns you anything. Citizenship is just a great perk to have, that it.

Alixlboy
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Alixlboy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:47 pm

If they don't let you go anywhere one year prior to lodging the application, what else would you call it? You cannot let them own you and stop you from travelling around the world, just for the sake of citizenship. Even the people who have been waiting for a long time for this, have fears that they might miss a post even if they go to see their parents etc. Plus they cannot go for a longer period either, as they don't know what impact that might have on their already delayed approvals.
I agree with the person. Call it a sweet prison, but still it is a prison.
The whole system needs to be revamped.

iceice304
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by iceice304 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:50 pm

Totally disagreed.
Shame actually lies with this system. Making a decision to live and work in any country is person’s own choice. But that person needs to follow the rules of the newly adopted country. if there are any flaws in the rules or system the blame should not be on that person of leaving his/her own country and deciding to live here.
There is a major flaw in the current rules/system of citizenship department and this is very much evident. It’s totally bizarre to start blaming people of why are they living in this country rather than making efforts to rectify these problems/flaws.

Obie
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Obie » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:54 pm

I am not in favour of the delays or the system in general, however I do not agree with the prison statement.

That person is not in a prison. People who are in prison do not have the right to get out. He has the right to get out of the state if he or she wishes. The applicant's passport is mostly returned within weeks. rather than the duration of the application. Therefore he is not in a prison. He never came in to the state with an Irish passport, he certainly is not precluded from leaving without one.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

iceice304
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by iceice304 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:27 pm

There is a place of idioms and non-categorical meaning in the English Language. We know the literal meaning of Prison but here the reference of prison was something else. Totally agreed with the article.

Stanina
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Re: Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

Post by Stanina » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:40 am

mrrobot wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:57 am
aneelrahim wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:52 am
'It's like I'm in a prison': Fears citizenship applications are facing years-long backlogs

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-a ... 1-Oct2019/
Saying that it’s like a prison is just so disrespectful to the whole country. Shame on this person. You live here voluntarily and no one owns you anything. Citizenship is just a great perk to have, that it.
I agree. There were already a lot of angry comments there.
I like that the issue receives coverage by the media though.

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