Court rules "continuous residence" means you CANNOT LEAVE IRELAND AT ALL for year before application

takeabow wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:51 pm

My local TD has confirmed that this cannot be dealt with legislatively until the 17 September, but it is the hope that the issue can be dealt with in a single sitting at that time. So even if it is dealt with “pretty quickly once the Dail resumes” we are looking at end Sep earliest before any clarity. In the meantime I guess our hopes hinge on an immediate appeal in the courts, which reaffirms that the ministers 6 week discretion is appropriate.

An emergency sitting can happen at any day - they have done the same a few years ago when the high court basically said the possession of some lethal drugs were legal. Since a ceremony has been planned for September, they would have to come up with some solutions now.

Oireachtas summer holiday starts from 1 August so there’s still time.

Hi all,

i know this never really works but a petition was launched to reverse the ruling. The least it will do is show how many people care.

You can sign here:
https://t.co/Q7T6fjO76H

Does this mean that all applications will have to be reviewed and the people who have left the country will be delayed?

Hi guys . My wife applied for her citizenship in March 2019 and received her second stage letter early July 2019 .in relation to the current high court scenario over period of absences is there something that she still needs to be worry about as my wife has not left Dublin since feb 2016( young kids ) so that puts her in the clear . Is there a need to contact citizenship confirming her status in this matter ? . Many thanks for your help

So in this case if our applications will be declined then they have to cancel and take back all citizenships that were granbted ''wrongly''

Honestly if that is going to happend to me I will apply to European Court or I will ask all granted citizens to be reviewed.

From the INIS citizenship homepage today:


Notice 1 | Statement from Minister Flanagan on High Court Citizenship judgment
18 July 2019

Speaking from Helsinki, where he is attending a meeting of EU Home Affairs Ministers, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Charlie Flanagan TD, has addressed the recent High Court judgment on citizenship, saying:

"I know that the ruling from the High Court has caused concern and may have been unsettling for people in the Citizenship process. I want to reassure people that my officials are carefully studying the ruling in consultation with the Attorney General’s Office. This issue is being dealt with as an urgent priority and I will take any necessary action to resolve it.”

Statusquo73 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:45 pm

So in this case if our applications will be declined then they have to cancel and take back all citizenships that were granbted ''wrongly''

Honestly if that is going to happend to me I will apply to European Court or I will ask all granted citizens to be reviewed.

They cannot "take back" any approved citizenship applications. The Citizenship Act explicitly defined that there are only a handful number of reasons that they can revoke a naturalisation application, including knowingly lying in the application and war crime etc. They cannot revoke an application based on the fact that the Minister interpreted the legislation incorrectly.

Also take a break. Nobody is going to decline any application. It's just either a legal battle or a new legislation to be introduced. Either way, it will cause some delays but it will stop just there.

Well I will put it in a different way. If the law does not permit the minister to issue a certificate, then any certificate issued is ultra vires.

The minister just like any other citizen or alien in the state, are bound and subject to the law.

Statusquo73 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:45 pm

So in this case if our applications will be declined then they have to cancel and take back all citizenships that were granbted ''wrongly''

Honestly if that is going to happend to me I will apply to European Court or I will ask all granted citizens to be reviewed.

Haha, from 1950s till today? What are you, a 5 year old?

Obie wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:06 pm

Well I will put it in a different way. If the law does not permit the minister to issue a certificate, then any certificate issued is ultra vires.

The minister just like any other citizen or alien in the state, are bound and subject to the law.

Few countries, especially in Africa don't allow dual citizenship. Many of the naturalised citizens from there only hold an Irish passport. Revoking their citizenship for any reason will deem them stateless and that is against the UN convention.

dunks1887 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:12 pm

zepman wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:27 am

Obie wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:20 am

I remember that in the year leading up to my application, I was particular about not travelling abroad

That's all well and good, but for many of us being 'particular' about traveling abroad would involve us needing to quit our jobs or go on career leave for that year. I still argue that less than 10% can afford to be so particular for either work or personal reasons, holidays aside.

I fully agree about those whose work involves travel, or those who have to travel for family emergencies etc. I personally think that in those cases, more than 6 weeks should be allowed. The point of my post was that those who don't need to travel abroad can indeed afford to be particular, and there are a lot of people like that.

Is there a source for that number - 10%?

smart_man wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:47 am

Statusquo73 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:45 pm

So in this case if our applications will be declined then they have to cancel and take back all citizenships that were granbted ''wrongly''

Honestly if that is going to happend to me I will apply to European Court or I will ask all granted citizens to be reviewed.

Haha, from 1950s till today? What are you, a 5 year old?

Probably you are angry because you are scared to lose your citizenship?
All newspaper are talking about granted citizenship to be illegitimate in this case. Even well-known solicitors say same thing. This decision put in danger all those citizenships were granted where the person was outside of the Ireland 1 day or more.

This is the fact. ANd they can revoke if there is a wrong decision. Whether you accept or not.

Statusquo73 wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:37 pm

smart_man wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:47 am

Statusquo73 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:45 pm

So in this case if our applications will be declined then they have to cancel and take back all citizenships that were granbted ''wrongly''

Honestly if that is going to happend to me I will apply to European Court or I will ask all granted citizens to be reviewed.

Haha, from 1950s till today? What are you, a 5 year old?

Probably you are angry because you are scared to lose your citizenship?
All newspaper are talking about granted citizenship to be illegitimate in this case. Even well-known solicitors say same thing. This decision put in danger all those citizenships were granted where the person was outside of the Ireland 1 day or more.

This is the fact. ANd they can revoke if there is a wrong decision. Whether you accept or not.

And where did you find this ‘fact’ and where is the legal basis for that? Have you even read Section 19 of the Citizenship Act 1956? Chill down. Nobody is going to reject your application or revoke anybody else’s. A delay is inevitable but it’s just a delay.

smart_man wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:49 am

Obie wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:06 pm

Well I will put it in a different way. If the law does not permit the minister to issue a certificate, then any certificate issued is ultra vires.

The minister just like any other citizen or alien in the state, are bound and subject to the law.

Few countries, especially in Africa don't allow dual citizenship. Many of the naturalised citizens from there only hold an Irish passport. Revoking their citizenship for any reason will deem them stateless and that is against the UN convention.

Yes I accept that certain issues may arise, which may offend international order or Ireland's international obligations, but the fact remains that such rules indeed exist.

The CONTINUOUS residence law applies to both Non-EU citizens and Spouse of EU citizen.
In both section 15 and 15 A (Naturalisation of spouses of Irish citizens), one year Continuos residence is specified, irrespective of what form 8 says only for Non EU citizens
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 3553403137

water_tank1 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:36 am

According to the current citizenship application form 8 and on closer inspection I see differences from Non-EU citizens based on 5 years residence and people applying on the basis of an Irish nation ....


" If you are a non‐EU citizen making a standard application based on having 5 years
residence:
 Evidence of your residency permissions that cover a CONTINUOUS PERIOD of 365/366
days in the year immediately prior to the date of application (date of Statutory Declaration)" - If applying this way it is asking for the "continuous residence" as per the new court ruling

According to the application form section based on married to an Irish national, it is not asking about the "continuous residence", only asking for residency permission for one year prior to application. So does this mean if applying based on married to an Irish nation is not affected?

Does the new ruling specify which basis the application is on or is it covering all applications?

Surely most if not all applicants who are applying for citizenship have been out of the country for at least one day in the 12 months before applying.

The CONTINUOUS residence law applies to both Non-EU citizens and Spouse of EU citizen.
In both section 15 and 15 A (Naturalisation of spouses of Irish citizens), one year Continuos residence is specified, irrespective of what form 8 says only for Non EU citizens

I sent an email to my lawyer and he clearly said that if this is NOT fixed the chances of revoking my wife citizenship are big because it meets in full one of the conditions for it.

Here:

"Citizenship may be revoked if:

- It was obtained by fraud, misrepresentation or by concealing relevant facts
- You have failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the state
- Read other circumstances in which citizenship can be revoked"

What is the problem here he said is the word "misrepresentation", in this scenario by the minister, so if someone submit an appeal to the high court that he thinks that all the citizenships in the past were issued by misrepresentation by the minister than we are in big trouble.

But anyway, he said that they hope that this is going to be fixed soon. The other problem is that even if this is fixed by making the low clear, they still dont know what is going to happened with all the citizenships issued in the past ... so he said there is a big chaos and lets see how its going to end.

This seems like a good news from inis:

Notice | Statement from INIS on the recent judgment in the High Court citizenship case
19 July 2019

We are aware that the judgment in this case has given cause for concern and may have been upsetting for many people who are in the citizenship process. We want to assure you that we are taking all appropriate steps to remedy the situation as quickly as possible. The best interests of applicants and future applicants are foremost in our considerations.

In the meantime, Citizenship Division is continuing to receive and process applications. Planning for the next Citizenship Ceremony in September is also underway. We are not advising citizenship applicants or future applicants to cancel any current or upcoming travel plans.

Our advice for people who are planning to apply for citizenship is to continue to collect all the necessary proofs that support your application and to submit a comprehensive application form. Once a solution is in place, if any additional information is required, you will be contacted as part of the processing of your application.

We do not believe that this ruling has consequences for anyone who has already obtained citizenship under the Act.

We ask for your patience while we put in place a solution as an urgent priority. Further updates will be posted on this website when available. If you would like to speak to us about your case, you can contact us as follows http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/co ... itizenship.

INIS can quite frankly believe whatever they like. They cannot even give concrete assurance. "We do not believe".
Unfortunately, as much as I hate it, I hold a contrary believe. We are all creature of the statute. We are all bound by the law of the land. The discretion of the minister is only engaged if a person fulfils all the criteria in the act. If the court say a person who was out one day fall fouls of 15(1)(c), then the minister has no discretion to exercise, as simple as that.

In practice , I believe individuals will be fine, but if I want to be legalistic, then they are not fine.

The minister was never right to have exercised discretion.

The Court of Appeal or supreme court needs to overturn this absurdity, very quickly , or it will create legal issues.

I went on a holiday abroad to see my kid for 21 days this year, and I've applied for citizenship only this Monday (15 July).

I was preparing for the application for so long... I wanted my documents to be perfect. Explicitly checked for the allowed gaps for the last year and even got a reply from "Citizenship Info <citizenshipinfo@justice.ie>" saying:

Please be advised that a person is entitled to be absent from the country
for up to 6 weeks in total in any one year without it having any
consequence on their application for naturalisation. Absences of more than
6 weeks need to be listed and a brief note explaining the reason for each
absence.Each application is reviewed on its own merit and will and not be
reviewed until an application is received.

I followed all given instructions, from the gov website, the application manual and their team.
Payed a bunch of money for the fee, solicitors, translators, printing etc. and all little things that came with it on the way + the huge amount of time and nerves I spent to prepare...

And now what?

Sorry palls, not your fault, it's the gift of legislature, just wait one more year and pay all fees again.

Seems like we applied on the same day!


[quote=hdsgnr post_id=1804876 time=1563563308 user_id=211245]
I went on a holiday abroad to see my kid for 21 days this year, and I've applied for citizenship only this Monday (15 July).

water_tank1 wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:15 pm

Seems like we applied on the same day!

I even got back an acknowledgment letter for my application just yesterday (3 days later after applying) packed with my passport and national id card, which is a friggin record, judging by the stories in the forum and some friends.
I have a friend waiting for his passport over 2.5 months.

So I got excited and optimistic and >bam<! A punch in the face.

Yes I am the same, got the passport back this week with a letter saying a letter with application ID and receipt will issue in due course.

I couldn't believe the passport got returned so fast despite others on here waiting a lengthy time and even trying to get there passport back for travel plans.

Maybe they will want the passport back later on in the application process.

My wife has been approved and paid her 950 Euro etc. Of course we are worried how this may impact us, but I don’t think it’s too much cause for concern. The judge implied that he believes the law should be changed and from reading various articles, there is no government will to impede this. Indeed, quite the opposite.

I think it’s pretty certain that the 6 week period will be made official before September’s ceremony. INIS must know this, otherwise they would not have officially advised applicants NOT to suspend/cancel travel plans etc, or confirm that they were still planning to hold September’s ceremony and that existing citizens would not be affected (sure sign of legal advice and high level decision making - if in doubt, they would have said nothing as concrete).

So, I wouldn’t panic. If they thought that this was Armageddon they would have already suspended applications.

Statement from INIS on the recent judgment in the High Court citizenship case.
http://www.inis.gov.ie