BrownBono lessons are for those who want to learn so far Irish government is in a state of denial they just dont wana open their eyes and see the reality.When one department does not communicate with other part such a government is just full of flaws. Currently politicians are just busy "back stabbing" so they dont have time for actual issues.

The truth is that Ireland is loosing competitiveness every month and alll this is just adding up.Inflaton is on the rise.

House prices are falling
See here
http://daftwatch.atspace.com/
http://www.irishpropertywatch.com/
The Above 2 links might not be accurate but they definately show a trend
Properties for sale, increased 300% in the last year. Thats people pulling properties off the rental market to sell, pushing up rental rates (pure supply and demand). Properties for rent, by contrast, has only increased ~12%.

Keep an eye on all aspects folks dont just walk blindly behind the EU-1.The problems might not end with EU-1

My personal analysis is that next 8-10 months are going to be crucial in deciding where the economy goes.so my sugession is keep your self posted and dont just think narrow minded you have whole European makert infront of you.Ireland is a good place to live momentarily but its not the end of the world


The following Fits Perfectly to Ireland in the treatment of Foreign nationals

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win."
Mahatma Gandhi

The EU has to decide in our favour as the EEA rules clearly state that the EEA Family Permit should allow the spouse to join them in another EEA country.

The EEA family permit system is meant to be automatic not discretionary as the Irish government seem to think it is!

a 2 simple questions here so please do not attack, simply answer

does any other eu country allow non eu people, who are in that country but who is not legally entitled do reside there (and possibly had been informed of a proposal to deport them,) and during the time in that country marry an eu citizen (even if it is genuine), entitled to stay on the basis of marraige to that eu person, despite the fact they are not entitled to be there in the first place?

is family reunification suppose to be where an eu national go to another country, then try and bring theIR family (marriage to someone before immigrating?

walrusgumble

I normally do not reply to any threads started by you though i would like to.
I feel your character is very provocative.You are just challenging people with all the negativity you have inside you which i am sure is a hinderance to your own success in life.

I would like to answer you all questions on this website less stupid one and more stupid ones.The problem is that i dont have time for engaging with people like you.

Only responding to this post as its posted in the thread i started.I dont like people with Negativity and you are full of it.

Regarding your questions i have to say you are very ill informed my friend.

Also i would like to draw your attention that I am not illegal in this country and UK has honoured that right and gave me EU spouce visa which Ireland has made conditional to residence in another EU country


Answer 1
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=12301

Answer 2
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=16403

Now please dont come up with anymore issues as i will not be answering them. But i do suggest you to start thinking a bit positive.

If you cant help them than atleast dont interefere with their progress.

[/b]

To the first question:
Whatever you decide to do when you are in a country illegally cannot be used to force anything.

So when you are in a country illegally and you do get married, you have to re-apply for residency, which would sometimes mean you have to go back to your country of origin, reapply for a visa and reapply for residence. Whatever you do when you're somewhere illegally is off the books, in the eyes of the government, you're still in your home country. Only an idiot would say: 'But hey, I've been in this country for 2 years illegally'.

On the second question: I have no idea what you're asking.

Its very sad that people are prophesing what they know little or nothing about.Marriage of an EU citizen to non EU and applying for a residence permit has got nothing to do with legal or Illegal of the non EU.
the popular Belgium case and the European Commission v Spain: C-157/03 expressely state-

''EUROPEAN COMMUNITY - COMMISSION - FAILURE OF MEMBER STATE TO FULFIL OBLIGATIONS - GRANT OF RESIDENCE PERMIT TO THIRD-PARTY NATIONALS WHO WERE FAMILY MEMBERS OF COMMUNITY NATIONAL WHO HAD EXERCISED RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT - RESPONDENT REQUIRING RESIDENCE VISA AS PREREQUISITE OF SUBSEQUENT PROCEDURE FOR ISSUE OF RESIDENCE PERMIT - FAILURE TO TRANSPOSE PROVISIONS OF RELEVANT DIRECTIVES INTO NATIONAL LAW - COUNCIL DIRECTIVES (EEC) 68/360, 73/148, 90/365, 64/221''

walrusgumble wrote:a 2 simple questions here so please do not attack, simply answer

does any other eu country allow non eu people, who are in that country but who is not legally entitled do reside there (and possibly had been informed of a proposal to deport them,) and during the time in that country marry an eu citizen (even if it is genuine), entitled to stay on the basis of marraige to that eu person, despite the fact they are not entitled to be there in the first place?

is family reunification suppose to be where an eu national go to another country, then try and bring theIR family (marriage to someone before immigrating?

A Simple Answer to your Questions :

1. Please give any link of any website where we all can read the rule that if you (NonNational) Marry to an EU and you r not legally residing in the state prior to Marriage, you won't be eligible to get the Residancy Card ?

2. Please read Diretive 2004/38/EC (type these words in google and search)... you will find your answer !!

Now would you mind answering my question ??

Is their any rule in any European State that EU1 Application's decision will take 11 months ???? i applied in June'06 and i got the decision in May'07. why they took Fu*kin 11 months to give dicision on my Application of EU1?????

[quote="BigAppleWoodenShoe"]To the first question:
Whatever you decide to do when you are in a country illegally cannot be used to force anything.

So when you are in a country illegally and you do get married, you have to re-apply for residency, which would sometimes mean you have to go back to your country of origin, reapply for a visa and reapply for residence. Whatever you do when you're somewhere illegally is off the books, in the eyes of the government, you're still in your home country. Only an idiot would say: 'But hey, I've been in this country for 2 years illegally'.






Where did you get your information ??????

runie80 wrote:walrusgumble

I normally do not reply to any threads started by you though i would like to.
I feel your character is very provocative.You are just challenging people with all the negativity you have inside you which i am sure is a hinderance to your own success in life.

I would like to answer you all questions on this website less stupid one and more stupid ones.The problem is that i dont have time for engaging with people like you.

Only responding to this post as its posted in the thread i started.I dont like people with Negativity and you are full of it.[/b]

1. simple question
2. you do not have to personally answer it nor need you have to read it
3. hinderance to my success in life. ha i am doing pretty well actually, and i am a pretty positive person.
4. i what ever have stated before, are valid interpretations and policies that come from the department (not mine but the department) and experiences with irish case law.
5. i am not questioning anyones legal status, particularily yours as you have on many times stated as such. but the reality is, they are some people in the state, NOT hinting you or others, that had no legal status to be here when they married, and to the depts concerns of insuring the intergrity of the immigration system, they have brought in such policies in the eu1 form. unfortunatley it affects people like yourself and it needs to be successfully challenged.

my question comes after seeing many ministerial replies to non eu people's applications. runie those links, what has british procduer got to do with the current irish postion?

suhail. the web you are looking for is www.justice.gov.ie it does not actually state it explicitly but you are smart enough surely, to realise what the irish policy is asking on form eu1. unfortunately it effects people who are legally residing here.



You all must think ye are the only ones though, when ye B8tch and moan about this country. have any of ye considered that if an Irish person married an NON EU person, and wished to have her remain in this State on that basis one of the only ways he could do that (other- being she apply for work permit on her own basis) would be if he had moved to another eu state (freedom of movement) met her there, marry and then come back to ireland (freedom of movement). some rights there for an irish person?

monobrown, i am not as much as claiming i know anything. i just happen to know more than you about what goes on in politics in ireland and in the department of justice, and i have the cop on to realise that the government will only do things that will suit itself, unfortunately that effects the minority. i am not been negative for the hell of it, just tips and heads up of the tripe that goes on in the department and its policies.

brownbonno wrote:Its very sad that people are prophesing what they know little or nothing about.Marriage of an EU citizen to non EU and applying for a residence permit has got nothing to do with legal or Illegal of the non EU.
the popular Belgium case and the European Commission v Spain: C-157/03 expressely state-

''EUROPEAN COMMUNITY - COMMISSION - FAILURE OF MEMBER STATE TO FULFIL OBLIGATIONS - GRANT OF RESIDENCE PERMIT TO THIRD-PARTY NATIONALS WHO WERE FAMILY MEMBERS OF COMMUNITY NATIONAL WHO HAD EXERCISED RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT - RESPONDENT REQUIRING RESIDENCE VISA AS PREREQUISITE OF SUBSEQUENT PROCEDURE FOR ISSUE OF RESIDENCE PERMIT - FAILURE TO TRANSPOSE PROVISIONS OF RELEVANT DIRECTIVES INTO NATIONAL LAW - COUNCIL DIRECTIVES (EEC) 68/360, 73/148, 90/365, 64/221''

its was a question that i have heard pouting around after friends of mine have shown me their ministerial replies to applications on the basis of marriage, pre eu1 form. i am not prophesing to actually now the law! any way you are bright enough to realise what the policy of the doj in the eu1 form situation really means. so try tell THEM that.

Sahil wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:a 2 simple questions here so please do not attack, simply answer

does any other eu country allow non eu people, who are in that country but who is not legally entitled do reside there (and possibly had been informed of a proposal to deport them,) and during the time in that country marry an eu citizen (even if it is genuine), entitled to stay on the basis of marraige to that eu person, despite the fact they are not entitled to be there in the first place?

is family reunification suppose to be where an eu national go to another country, then try and bring theIR family (marriage to someone before immigrating?

A Simple Answer to your Questions :

1. Please give any link of any website where we all can read the rule that if you (NonNational) Marry to an EU and you r not legally residing in the state prior to Marriage, you won't be eligible to get the Residancy Card ?

the department of justice website - form eu1 policy. saying you need to have been in another eu state

denamark have similar stance on this issue. brownmonno you are good for getting cases, has eu ruled against them. as for that case, it seems from the facts that the eu spouse already had married then went to excerice powers of free movement to another eu state

you have a problem with how long it takes, go to the high court seek judicial review and an order for mandamus.

You`ve been found long time ago and all this is becoming comical now.

Or even better.......



Walrusgamble, we should all sing a song now !!!

see who will be laughing when you get your reply or when october comes

are the immigration council helping ye out at all with the cases.

if ye think the government is bad, check out sections 5 and 95 of the IMMIGRATION, RESIDENCE AND PROTECTION BILL 2007

walrusgumble wrote:

Sahil wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:a 2 simple questions here so please do not attack, simply answer

does any other eu country allow non eu people, who are in that country but who is not legally entitled do reside there (and possibly had been informed of a proposal to deport them,) and during the time in that country marry an eu citizen (even if it is genuine), entitled to stay on the basis of marraige to that eu person, despite the fact they are not entitled to be there in the first place?

is family reunification suppose to be where an eu national go to another country, then try and bring theIR family (marriage to someone before immigrating?

A Simple Answer to your Questions :

1. Please give any link of any website where we all can read the rule that if you (NonNational) Marry to an EU and you r not legally residing in the state prior to Marriage, you won't be eligible to get the Residancy Card ?

the department of justice website - form eu1 policy. saying you need to have been in another eu state

denamark have similar stance on this issue. brownmonno you are good for getting cases, has eu ruled against them. as for that case, it seems from the facts that the eu spouse already had married then went to excerice powers of free movement to another eu state

you have a problem with how long it takes, go to the high court seek judicial review and an order for mandamus.

Walrusgumble,without going into details.The Jia case gives a clear defeat to the DoJ ''live in other EU state'' requirement.
I quite respect your personal opinion,but they are too descret for public comsumption.Do you know the time,money and efforts it takes for a judicial review ?There is no need going through that route when its easier by doing what is right.The DoJ are only ashame to retrack the Artcle3(2),although few off record positive decision to some EU1 application is a clear indication of the uneducated interpretation of the EU directive 2004/38/EC.

walrusgumble wrote:

Sahil wrote:
A Simple Answer to your Questions :

1. Please give any link of any website where we all can read the rule that if you (NonNational) Marry to an EU and you r not legally residing in the state prior to Marriage, you won't be eligible to get the Residancy Card ?

the department of justice website - form eu1 policy. saying you need to have been in another eu state

denamark have similar stance on this issue. brownmonno you are good for getting cases, has eu ruled against them. as for that case, it seems from the facts that the eu spouse already had married then went to excerice powers of free movement to another eu state

you have a problem with how long it takes, go to the high court seek judicial review and an order for mandamus.

could you Please tell me when the Web site of Deparment of IN-Justice was updated.... i guess you don;t know,..... let me tell you ..... it was updated on 28th APRIL 2007 and i filed my Application on JULY' 2006 .... so i didn;t have any Fu*kin Info about changing of Law by Irish Authorities. why DOJ hadn;t put these changes in EU1 form ?????????? i had submitted each and every Original document Requried in EU1. and over the top we are takin about EU law not about Irish Authrities and there disasters.

The European Commision Position is Supported by recent Jusgment of the court in case Jia where Court Ruled that Community law does not require Member States to make grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non Member State, who are members of the family of a Union citizen who has exercised his ot her right of free movement, subject to condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.

you never answered my question where i ask:

why the hell DOJ took 10 months to give me a reply on my EU1 application where it was clearly written that a decision will take NO LONGER THAN SIX MONTHS !!!!!

why should i go to court high court seek judicial review and an order for mandamus... when i know it is wrong what they did ???


Best Regards,


Sahil

walrus



You are here just to pick up a fight,like a good old english hooligan.
First there was your article 8 ,than Marys nationality and now rather deliberately perverse but "innocently" asked question.
You bloody knew that you`d get a response,and that was your aim, so you could carry on till the Kingdome come.Do you get some kind of kicks doing this.Or the answer is kind of sinister.
Who knows and who cares !!??

does any other eu country allow non eu people, who are in that country but who is not legally entitled do reside there (and possibly had been informed of a proposal to deport them,) and during the time in that country marry an eu citizen (even if it is genuine), entitled to stay on the basis of marraige to that eu person, despite the fact they are not entitled to be there in the first place?

And that little PM that you send me is rather pathetic.

Walrus: A couple do not have to be married to qualify for an EEA Family Permit anyway. They just have to be in a registered partnership or durable relationship.

limey wrote:Walrus: A couple do not have to be married to qualify for an EEA Family Permit anyway. They just have to be in a registered partnership or durable relationship.

right (this is not negativity here but) the eu laws allows this yes, but unfortunately only in countries that recognises such partnerships in domestic law. in ireland, there is no constitutional recognition for unmarried partners. unfortunately, article 41 in this regard is very much outdated. even irish partners are not recognised

walrusgumble

You are making a joke of your self.

Firstly you are gone OFF topic on all threads here
Secondly you are not helping anyone here all your comments are negative and engage people in long pointless discussions stating you what is obvious and logical.
Thirdly I dont understand the reason you keep poking your finger in matters which are not your concern

If i was you i would be enjoying my life or thinking about my career rather than arguing about things which stay the same no matter how much you write about it on this board.This place is for information sharing between people who are in trouble because of Immigration Issues.

Everyone who comes on this forum is actively involved in this EU-1 "Fiasco" or either in someway connected to it.you are neither of those.You take pleasure in confronting people most of them are genuine people who are being abused by the system which is there to protect them.We all are trying to put togather the pieces of our lives.

I hope the above makes some sense and change your thinking.If not he following might be some use for you.

"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." -
-- Eleanor Roosevelt

runie80 wrote:walrusgumble

You are making a joke of your self.

Firstly you are gone OFF topic on all threads here
Secondly you are not helping anyone here all your comments are negative and engage people in long pointless discussions stating you what is obvious and logical.
Thirdly I dont understand the reason you keep poking your finger in matters which are not your concern

If i was you i would be enjoying my life or thinking about my career rather than arguing about things which stay the same no matter how much you write about it on this board.This place is for information sharing between people who are in trouble because of Immigration Issues.

Everyone who comes on this forum is actively involved in this EU-1 "Fiasco" or either in someway connected to it.you are neither of those.You take pleasure in confronting people most of them are genuine people who are being abused by the system which is there to protect them.We all are trying to put togather the pieces of our lives.

I hope the above makes some sense and change your thinking.If not he following might be some use for you.

"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." -
-- Eleanor Roosevelt

1. limey mistook Irish application on eu recognition of civil partnership, which was given by the eu
2. putting my finger in where it does not belong/concern.Hello this is my country. all i have done is outline areas in irish law that you have to tackle. not my opinions no point getting false high hopes.i do not take any fun in pointing you our s&ity laws. it is not my fault that these laws are negative. dont shoot the messaginer.
3. i wont tolerate people who are ignorant of MY countries past in not realising the implications and effects of northern ireland and its minority group there (nationals) by causally claiming that people in the north are british.i defy you to go to a nationalist place and ask them their nationality. i defy you to inform them, "oh but the british legisaltion says you are". for over 40 years people in my country were killed (many innocent) over these issues. i dont expect outsiders to understand but at least try to understand these issues if they go on about northern ireland. then harping i am some finlas crank. 2 of they cousins were killed by loylist in 1987 simply for going out with two girls from the loyalist community. my unlce was a member of the an Garda Siochana drugs squad but was murdered during an IRA raid in navan in 1984.
4. article 8 of ECHR is there to protect family members from abuse from the governments. however, if you care to look at case law, there have been many incidents and examples of where the govenment proved that interference was justifible via article 8.2, in many cases immigration was the issue. many cases have shown that eu law does not recognise the right
5. EU law is first applicable to EU citizens then non nationals. this rule in Europe was a directive, thus allowing countires to put some limitations to it when they bring it to international law.
6. that Rooselt issue. well if i was in power then i would not have allowed that irish law come in. this board is about finding out what the law in IRELAND is not P*S(ing and moaning about how hard things are by quoting hymn like eu regulations, some of which ireland, uk and denmark have opted out of.
7. slagging of ireland about how it does nothing unitl uk do it. ireland is far more pro europe than they are. ireland is a small country that have the same legal system aas britain. (rest is civil) of course they will check out and compare what the brits will do
8. what makes you so sure that i have no family connections or friends involved in the EU1 FIASCO?

finally i can show you all that i was not been stupid etc or negative when i made the comments i made previously.

anyway this is the UNAPPROVED judgement for the Kumar case from Justice Hanna, which hopefully be of some use to ye. got it emailed from a barrister who specialises in immgration laws. Ye will note that for many of ye the facts of the applicants may greatly differ to yours hence the reasonable good reason for ye to challenge this law. note this case is prob gonna be challenged in the Supreme court and possible europe.

it will also show how article 8.2 of ECHR may apply and why Jia was not applied and why, before ever setting eyes on the judgement, i asked those "insensative questions" because that was my understanding of eu law.

as for the judgement feel free to email immigration council for it. note this is an unapproved judgment in the sense that approval has not been clarified or published yet. this case is going to the supreme court, and who knows the ECJ. so in a way, baring in mind ecj and supreme court have yet to get an oppurtunity to overrule this, looks like from previous posts on this issue, i was not completely making a fool of my self, just trying to highlight possible issues that were successfully argued by the respondents. although my help and contributions were not acceptable for ye, unforunately this is the way the law stands at the moment. so if ye want to flick in devil faces (runie) head over to the high court and have a word with justice hanna not me.

what ever happens, you will see from the facts of this case, they are greatly different from many of yours, and each case must be dealt with on a case by case situation, so it would be worth gettign legal advice on possibilities of challenging your refusuals. good luck!


JUDGMENT of Mr. Justice Hanna delivered on the 28th day of May, 2007

This is an application for judicial review on behalf of the applicants to whom leave to bring this application was granted in the form of the amended statement of grounds. The said leave was obtained from Finlay Geoghegan J. on the 31st July, 2006.

The first named applicant claims that he has a right of residency in this jurisdiction being married to an EU citizen who is resident and working in Ireland. The applicants complain that the instrument under which the first named applicant’s right of residency was refused, The European Communities (Freedom of Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006, S.I. No. 226/2006, is ultra vires Directive 2004/38/EC which deals with the rights of citizens of the European Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. Specifically, the applicants contend that the requirement in the said Regulations that a spouse or family member who is a national of a non-EU state be lawfully resident in another Member State before entering Ireland either with or without a view to joining a spouse who is a national of another EU state goes beyond the provisions of the Directive to such extent as would require primary legislation to be enacted into law. Further, the applicants argue, in the given circumstances of Mr. Kumar’s case, refusal of the right of residency and his removal from the State to the Kingdom of Belgium is contrary both to their respective rights under the Irish Constitution and under the European Convention of Human Rights and Article 8 thereof in particular.

The first named applicant is a citizen of India. The second named applicant is a national of Estonia, a Member State of the European Union. The applicants were married in this State on 18th May 2006, having been in a relationship, according to the applicants, since 2003. Unsurprisingly, the description of the applicants’ prior relationship is not challenged since it occurred mostly out of the jurisdiction. Further, no issue has been raised with regard to the validity in legal terms of the marriage.

Background facts
The relevant history of the case is as follows. Whilst still a minor aged fifteen, the first named applicant applied for asylum in Belgium and was refused. He then somehow or other entered the United Kingdom and resided there illegally for a period of approximately three years. It was during this time, we are told, that the relationship between the applicants grew. According to applicants’ solicitor, Mr. Derek Stewart, who swore an affidavit on behalf of and on the instructions of the applicants, the applicants formed an intention to marry when in the United Kingdom and he was instructed that some contact was made with the Home Office in the UK on their behalf seeking permission for their marriage. Mr. Stewart in para. 6 of his affidavit sworn on 27th June, 2006, says as follows:-
“It seems that in frustration with the length of time it was taking to regularise their position and formalise their marriage, the applicants travelled to Ireland in or about January, 2006, with the intention of the second named applicant finding employment in the State, formalising their marriage and setting up their family home here.â€

Conclusions

The first named respondent is, without doubt, an “organ of the Stateâ€

I knew its easy to wind up the Average Irish

You prove my point !

I am not reading all your pointless replies!

Thanks for wasting time !

[quote]52. Having concluded at the end of the previous section that there is a certain degree of inconsistency in the case-law regarding the law applicable to third-country-national family members of migrant Community citizens, the preceding observations suggest, in addition, that the outcome of these cases is to a large extent determined by the particular facts of each case. In an area such as immigration where decisions taken by the competent authorities affect the lives of individuals in a most fundamental manner, there is, however, a great need for clarity as to the scope of rights and predictability as to the manner in which the law is applied. In order to create greater transparency and to promote legal certainty, a more systematic and structural approach to the interpretation and application of the relevant Community provisions is required.â€

Today is the official confirmation of the state of deniel !

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 95610.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0709/housing.html


That futher backs up my previous post with regards to economy !

10,000 jobs feared to be lost this year in construction sector.

P.S i know its not related to EU-1 directly but i just found this info so
posting that any new immigrant may be thinking of buying a house here be careful !