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'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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Southern_Sky
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'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by Southern_Sky » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:20 pm

Originally from Germany but living in Ireland since she was 10, Ms Dubsky said: “I always understood I was a citizen and have voted in every election.

“I have always held a German passport because you can only have one, but I assumed I was an Irish citizen.â€

9jeirean
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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by 9jeirean » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:39 pm

1) Can anyone be a citizen of a country just because they assume so?

2) How come she's been able to vote in every election without her being an Irish citizen? What does that say about the integrity of the electoral registration/verification system?

3) [quote]“I have always held a German passport because you can only have one, but I assumed I was an Irish citizen.â€
Last edited by 9jeirean on Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Southern_Sky
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Post by Southern_Sky » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:50 pm

Perhaps a relief that queue jumping is not allowed


''She said, however, that in the process the Minister for Justice “would still have to offer me citizenship but queue jumping is not allowedâ€

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by ca.funke » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:54 pm

Such scenarios usually occur, because people do not realise the difference between "nationality" and "passport".

Explanation...
  • >>Nationality<< describes the fact that you hold a specific nationality.
    • Example: A Swiss person is simply always Swiss, regardless of whether (s)he
      • was just born a few minutes ago (still in hospital) and a passport/ID was never issued
      • carries a passport/ID on the person or not
      • or if the passport is lost/stolen/expired/invalid/forged/whatever you can think of...
  • A >>Passport<< is usually used to prove that the holder actually possesses a nationality.
    • It confirms that the issuing authority believes that someone holds the nationality at the time when the passport is issued.
    • NB: Fact (nationality) vs. proof (passport)
  • Everyone may thus:
    • be a national of one country, and hold the corresponding passport (most normal/easy case)
    • be a national of a several countries, and hold corresponding passports (normal/easy case)
    • have one or several nationalities, but hold none or only some of the corresponding passports
    • Have no nationality, and thus no regular passport (>>stateless<<)
  • However, everyone could also:
    • have a nationality without even knowing it
    • believe to have a nationality, although it´s not the case
    • possess a passport of a country, without being a national (issued on erroneous assumtions, nationality withdrawn...)
    • Be deprived of a lawful passport, simply because the nationality cannot be proven
...and some examples:
  • If a child is born to a Belgian father and an Irish mother, the child is automatically Belgian and Irish (through bloodright)
    • The child (or its parents) can apply for one or both passports, however this does not have any effect on nationality
  • If a child is born to an Irish mother and a Belgian father, but the father is unknown, the child is still an Irish and a Belgian national, but will never know about the Belgian part.
  • If the above child is born in the USA, it has 3 nationalities - Belgian and Irish through bloodright, US-nationality through the "right of the soil"
    • The child (or its parents) can apply for one, two or all three passports, however this does not have any effect on the nationalities
    • If the child was just born in the U.S. by accident, for example it came early during a U.S. visit, subsequently returns to Europe with the parents, the child is a U.S. citizen, but may not be aware of this. The child would be liable to U.S. taxes and may only enter the U.S. with a U.S. passport, unless the U.S. nationality is officially renounced
  • Some countries (example Lebanon), grant nationality only through their father, NEVER through their mother.
    • Lebanese father, Irish mother --> Lebanese and Irish citizenship
    • Lebanese mother, Irish father --> Irish citizenship only
  • If a woman marries a Turkish man, she is automatically granted Turkish nationality. (not vice versa!)
    • In German law, you automatically loose German nationality, if you "voluntarily" accept a nationality outside the EU+Switzerland
    • As a result, a German woman marrying a Turkish man looses German citizenship, but may still be in possession of her German passport...
    • EDIT: This example is outdated, my mistake, however it´s still easy to obtain Turkish nationality after marrying - >>details here<<
As you can see, every situation needs its own analysis.

In the case of the article, the lady assumed to be Irish(it´d be interesting to know why!), although she was never Irish. As per the article "I have always held a German passport because you can only have one, but I assumed I was an Irish citizen." Obviously that is very wrong. You can have many nationalities, and you can have many passports. However, ideally, you should hold passports of all nationalities that you hold, and no other possible combination.

Had she been born in Ireland (to German parents), she´d be German and Irish (54 years ago, in 1957, Ireland still operated the "right of the soil"). However, she came to Ireland when she was 10, and as such was always "only" German. She could have applied for Irish nationality but didn´t so far, and as such she´ll have to wait for her application for Irish nationality to be processed. Once that process is finished, she will be allowed to apply for an Irish passport, but she will not need the passport to stand for elections.

After all that´s the point of all my writing: What she needs to be allowed to stand for elections is Irish nationality, not an Irish passport. However I´d strongly advise her to get an Irish passport, once she turned Irish.

Just to complete everything, once Irish, she should either not forget to keep renewing her German passport or renounce her German nationality, but not just ignore that part.
Last edited by ca.funke on Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 25 times in total.

9jeirean
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Post by 9jeirean » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:56 pm

Would love to know more about her background. Was she born of Irish parentage or any ancestral linkage to an Irish born person. Without any prejudice, it might be another case of people confusing Irish ethnicity with Irish citizenship. I might be wrong, just saying.
Last edited by 9jeirean on Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 9jeirean » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:59 pm

@c.a funke: Thanks for that. I just saw your post after I posted my preceding post. Your post highlighted exactly my assumptions. But we don't know yet. it will be nice to know her history.

Thanks

9jeirean

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by 9jeirean » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:29 pm

ca.funke wrote: Just to complete everything, once Irish, she should either not forget to renew her German passport or renounce her German nationality, but not just ignore that part.
Hi ca.funke, it appears that she would have to relinquish her German citizenship in order to take up the Irish citizenship. More so, it would appear she knew this all along. Whatever her scenarios was appears to forbid her from keeping both citizenships. Here's a few quote that I think are worthy of note:
“I have always held a German passport because you can only have one....."
Ms Dubsky said when she realised the situation, she rushed to complete all the necessary documentation to take up Irish citizenship and revoke her German passport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 75315.html


What do you think?

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by ca.funke » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:40 pm

9jeirean wrote:What do you think?
At least since some time around summer 2006 it´s allowed to have as many EU-nationalities (+Switzerland) as you want.

Before that, at least in Germany, you had to apply for a special permission from the German government "Beibehaltungsgenehmigung" to be allowed to take up any nationality without loosing the German nationality.

To get this permission you had to write an essay outlining why you want the other nationality, but at the same time still feel eligible for German nationality.

I know this for a fact since I applied for this myself, as I wanted to turn Belgian but keep my German nationality.

I succeeded and am now Belgian and German, that was in April 2006.

I remember reading a few months later that this process was abolished for EU (+Switzerland) nationalities that you may want to obtain, however for all other nationalities this is still applicable today.

Relevant to the newspapercase discussed, I know a person personally who was born, in Germany, to a German father and an Irish mother in 1976. He´s been German and Irish since he was born, so I assume it was possible to be a dual national even long before this, but I don´t know about the law at that time...
Last edited by ca.funke on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by 86ti » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:45 pm

ca.funke wrote:
  • If a woman marries a Turkish man, she is automatically granted Turkish nationality. (not vice versa!)
    • In German law, you automatically loose German nationality, if you "voluntarily" accept a nationality outside the EU+Switzerland
    • As a result, a German woman marrying a Turkish man looses German citizenship, but may still be in possession of her German passport...
Google tells me that, in fact, Turkey offers a choice and does also allow dual nationality (in contrast to Germany in that case). Iran, however, does so although this is obviously not voluntary because it forces foreign law on a citizen and doesn't give the woman a choice. I would think the woman would still be considered a German citizen in the eyes of the Germans.

Also, a non EU/Swiss national who can't renounce citizenship would never be able to obtain German citizenship if your first point would be absolutely true. I guess there would be exceptions in law too.

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by 9jeirean » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:47 pm

ca.funke wrote:
9jeirean wrote:What do you think?
At least since some time around summer 2006 it´s allowed to have as many EU-nationalities (+Switzerland) as you want.

Before that, at least in Germany, you had to apply for a special permission from the German government "Beibehaltungsgenehmigung" to be allowed to take up any nationality without loosing the German nationality.

To get this permission you had to write an essay outlining why you want the other nationality, but at the same time still feel eligible for German nationality.

I know this for a fact since I applied for this myself, as I wanted to turn Belgian but keep my German nationality.

I succeeded and am now Belgian and German, that was in April 2006.

I remember reading a few months later that this process was abolished for EU (+Switzerland) nationalities that you may want to obtain, however for all other nationalities this is still applicable today.

Relevant to the newspapercase discussed, I know a person personally who was born, in Germany, to a German father and an Irish mother in 1976. He´s been German and Irish since he was born, so I assume it was possible to be a dual national even long before this, but I don´t know about the law at that time...

Thanks for this. Cheers

9jeirean

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by ca.funke » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:57 pm

86ti wrote:Google tells me that, in fact, Turkey offers a choice and does also allow dual nationality (in contrast to Germany in that case). Iran, however, does so although this is obviously not voluntary because it forces foreign law on a citizen and doesn't give the woman a choice. I would think the woman would still be considered a German citizen in the eyes of the Germans.

Also, a non EU/Swiss national who can't renounce citizenship would never be able to obtain German citizenship if your first point would be absolutely true. I guess there would be exceptions in law too.
Hi 86ti,

for your first point:
Maybe this changed in Turkish law, however the following stands: If a German woman becomes Turkish (for example through marriage), she will usually loose her German nationality.

If she can avoid becoming Turkish, or applies for the permission by the German government to become Turkish without loosing German nationality >>see my previous post<<, then she can either remain "just" German or obtain both nationalities (respectively).

EDIT: Just read your Iranian point. In this case the German woman would have to get the >>Beibehaltungsgenehmigung as per my previous post<< by the German government before marrying, otherwise she´d be Iranian only. I guess it would be granted without complications (the point is obvious), however I have no practial experience in this.

for your second point:
At least in Germany, if you want German nationality but cannot renounce your original nationality (for example Argentina, where "denaturalisation" is unknown / not provided under any circumstances), you have to prove to the German authorities that you "tried" to get denaturalised.

In practice you have to send a letter asking for denaturalisation by registered mail to the relevant ministry or embassy, and later show the Germans the reply or, in absence of a reply, you have to sign a paper under oath that you sent the registered letter but didn´t get a reply within one year.

Sorry for having been unclear :)

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by 86ti » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:13 pm

ca.funke wrote:EDIT: Just read your Iranian point. In this case the German woman would have to get the >>Beibehaltungsgenehmigung as per my previous post<< by the German government before marrying, otherwise she´d be Iranian only. I guess it would be granted without complications (the point is obvious), however I have no practial experience in this.
There is just one obvious problem if this formal procedure would have to be followed: when the woman doesn't know or understand...

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by ca.funke » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:32 pm

86ti wrote:There is just one obvious problem if this formal procedure would have to be followed: when the woman doesn't know or understand...
Just as the newspaperarticle shows, it´s always unfortunate if you don´t know something that concerns you.

In this specific case, I know that before the Turkish law was changed (which it obviously was), there were cases each year where "German" women came back to Germany after marrying in Turkey with their -then- invalid German passports. So the only thing that happened in Germany on arrival: Passport confiscated, sent back to Turkey, and being told that they´ll have to apply for a visa...

...very bad situation, but it did occur :(
Last edited by ca.funke on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Don't vote for me', TCD candidate tells electors

Post by ca.funke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:01 pm

irishtimes wrote:Ms Dubsky said when she realised the situation, she rushed to complete all the necessary documentation to take up Irish citizenship and revoke her German passport.
Just read through this thread again. The "revoke her German passport"-part is obviously nonsense as well:
  • A passport can be revoked by the state that issued it,
    • for example because the bearer lost the passport
      • making sure no-one else can use it
    • because the bearer now poses a threat to security and isn´t allowed to travel anymore
      • making sure even the bearer cannot use it anymore, although he still possesses the nationality
    • because the bearer lost the nationality and hence shouldn´t hold the relevant passport any longer
  • NB: Revocation of a passport has no effect on nationality, only losing the nationality has an effect on the validity of a passport!
What Ms Dubsky (or the reporter who messed up the article) probably meant is that she wants to give up her German nationality.

The question why she would want to give up her German nationality remains a secret, unless we´d get some more information.

Clearly it´s >>not necessary to give up German nationality to obtain the Irish nationality<<.

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