ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push, Administrator

Post Reply
ailA2019
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:55 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by ailA2019 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:53 am

pluto1992 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 pm
Has anyone here contacted the office of the Ombudsman for the delay in decision? The reason why I ask is I want to throw the Spam sink at them.
I Never heard of it., but you can apply online or simply write them by email and We will know for sure at least they will reply something. :roll:

polarcub
Member
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:20 am
Mood:
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:29 pm

The process to qualify you to even file a JR can take 6 months (1. you need the FOI, which can take 2 months, 2. you need a lawyer to send 1-2 letters to the department to give them a chance to rectify the situation - each letter gives the dept c.6 weeks to respond).

From the time your lawyer files the JR with the High Courts it'll be 1-2 weeks before you get a decision from the minister. It used to be slow, but right now it's working faster apparently.

It is really unfortunate that we have to inform ourselves on our legal recourse and using up the time of the High Courts to get a decision on the very application we paid for.
johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:09 pm
polarcub wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:05 pm
Sadly it seems like (i suspect) why the department have been saying they are prioritizing the cases waiting for 2 years or more --- there are so many people going via JR, it's become costly for them, and sadly it seems to be the way to secure a decision.
johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:59 am
polarcub wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:55 am
The JR proceedings are apparently clearing up really quickly now - 1-2 weeks people are getting a decision once JR paperwork filed.

The judge handling these cases is not happy that these naturalisation cases are clogging her court room, and that's apparently good as she's in favour of approving these cases and it puts pressure on the department to get their act together.

The judge apparently doesn't want to see/grant a JR unless you've been waiting a min 24-26 months - remember if you do a JR and the judge says "oh well you've not been waiting long enough" that means you have to pay court fees. In terms of the 2 year "rule", it's not a hard rule, it's just become the norm. It's all relative, as there are so many people doing JRs and have been waiting a very very very long time. So that's made a 2 year wait seem like the norm for a JR.
Thanks for this. Very helpful.
And then the JR processing time to get decision will take another 6 month based on what I read on this forum, is that correct?

Akeel
Newly Registered
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:10 pm
Pakistan

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Akeel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:30 pm

polarcub wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:29 pm
The process to qualify you to even file a JR can take 6 months (1. you need the FOI, which can take 2 months, 2. you need a lawyer to send 1-2 letters to the department to give them a chance to rectify the situation - each letter gives the dept c.6 weeks to respond).

From the time your lawyer files the JR with the High Courts it'll be 1-2 weeks before you get a decision from the minister. It used to be slow, but right now it's working faster apparently.

It is really unfortunate that we have to inform ourselves on our legal recourse and using up the time of the High Courts to get a decision on the very application we paid for.
johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:09 pm
polarcub wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:05 pm
Sadly it seems like (i suspect) why the department have been saying they are prioritizing the cases waiting for 2 years or more --- there are so many people going via JR, it's become costly for them, and sadly it seems to be the way to secure a decision.
johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:59 am


Thanks for this. Very helpful.
And then the JR processing time to get decision will take another 6 month based on what I read on this forum, is that correct?
I got my JR decision in 5 weeks process time.my solicitor send two weeks notice to department and they didn't replied so he lodge judicial review on 22 march 2021 and I got my decision on 6 April 2021...the whole process took 5 weeks. From beginning to end.

pluto1992
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:03 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:34 pm

Akeel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:30 pm
I got my JR decision in 5 weeks process time.my solicitor send two weeks notice to department and they didn't replied so he lodge judicial review on 22 march 2021 and I got my decision on 6 April 2021...the whole process took 5 weeks. From beginning to end.
When did you apply for your citizenship?

Akeel
Newly Registered
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:10 pm
Pakistan

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Akeel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:43 pm

pluto1992 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:34 pm
Akeel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:30 pm
I got my JR decision in 5 weeks process time.my solicitor send two weeks notice to department and they didn't replied so he lodge judicial review on 22 march 2021 and I got my decision on 6 April 2021...the whole process took 5 weeks. From beginning to end.
When did you apply for your citizenship?
I applied in August 2018 .second stage letter may 2019 non Eu married with irish citizen

Dodi412
Newbie
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:00 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dodi412 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:57 pm

Hello guys! My solicitor contacted me today saying that the department got back to her after sending them a notice letter staying that we’re going for JR. The email was send by the help desk saying they’ve forwarded the letter to the relevant team.

Does anyone know if that’s a good sign for getting back to us in the coming days? Or should I prepare myself for the JR.

Would appreciate if you can help me with an answer to the above. Thanks :)

ailA2019
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:55 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by ailA2019 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:01 am

Dodi412 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:57 pm
Hello guys! My solicitor contacted me today saying that the department got back to her after sending them a notice letter staying that we’re going for JR. The email was send by the help desk saying they’ve forwarded the letter to the relevant team.

Does anyone know if that’s a good sign for getting back to us in the coming days? Or should I prepare myself for the JR.

Would appreciate if you can help me with an answer to the above. Thanks :)
Unfortunately,it is a very generic response that provides only they’ve forwarded the letter to the relevant team.

maximus_
Newly Registered
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:58 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by maximus_ » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:00 am

There is a lot more to it than meets the eye.

I recently received my FOI documents, i launched my application in 2019 - over 2 years waiting now.
All necessary check (Documents verification, Stamps, GARDA VETTING) were verified and approved within 4 months of launching application and no further action has been initiated on the application since 2019.

Very controlled immigration system, whether its a quota they have in effect or they don't want to rush approvals or gross incompetence or something systematic under the carpet.

Naturalization and immigration was perceived to be a welcoming process, however this experience has left me wondering.

Even in the near future even if i get naturalized, it will not hold any significance the way this department has treated its applicants.

polarcub
Member
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:20 am
Mood:
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:23 am

Question for anyone who have completed or initiated a JR: did you have to physically go in to sign the paperwork for the court filings etc? Or is there an option to avoid the physical contact and the signings/appearances virtually?

littlerr
Diamond Member
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by littlerr » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:43 am

Although technically it is possible and legal to sign these forms electronically, I can’t see any legal form accepting an electronic signature at the moment. The initiation of a JR needs to be comprehensive and completely thought through, and will usually involve a solicitor who in turn needs to talk to a barrister to have that drafted.

You can of course do everything yourself to keep the cost down, but the legal wordings can be a huge challenge for most native speakers and even for some junior solicitors.

pluto1992
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:03 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:44 am

maximus_ wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:00 am
There is a lot more to it than meets the eye.

I recently received my FOI documents, i launched my application in 2019 - over 2 years waiting now.
All necessary check (Documents verification, Stamps, GARDA VETTING) were verified and approved within 4 months of launching application and no further action has been initiated on the application since 2019.

Very controlled immigration system, whether its a quota they have in effect or they don't want to rush approvals or gross incompetence or something systematic under the carpet.

Naturalization and immigration was perceived to be a welcoming process, however this experience has left me wondering.

Even in the near future even if i get naturalized, it will not hold any significance the way this department has treated its applicants.
I agree with every word you have said and that’s exactly how I feel. I had applied in 2018. I am in 4th year of processing now. Got records through FOi. Last action on my application was a year and half ago when the department requested 3rd Garda vetting for me.
No accountability, incompetence and maybe something sinister ... whatever it is the whole experience is nothing but a complete and utter disgrace. I have also started JR. No other option. Give a decision one way or another so that my time is not wasted. I can go where I’ll feel welcome.

pluto1992
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:03 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:53 am

And even after all these years of waiting, you get templated response to insult you intelligence. It’s like rubbing salt in the wound. I know my application continues to be processed otherwise why would I be writing you to ask about my application. Second stage, advanced stage, prepared to be submitted ... all these stages fool nobody’s anymore. Fact of the matter is, 24k waiting for decision is a testament, that the system has failed, the department has failed, the minister has failed and the people who run this system are nothing but lazy bluffers. Rant over.

Lion2208
Newly Registered
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:22 am
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Lion2208 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:56 am

My friend wants to apply for FOI for his Naturalization app. He wants to go into JR.
Can anyone tell me please,
What records i can ask for on the application. As to figure out everything is ok on my Naturalization app.
Is it DOJ record only?
And GNIB record?
Can someone please advise plz
Thanks

polarcub
Member
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:20 am
Mood:
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:12 pm

The FOI is made with the DOJ
In the form you ask for: all pertaining information and documentation held on the citizenship application, and provide them with the application #
You don't need to separately ask for GNIB records nor contact that office, if this is for a citizenship application. The DOJ will give you everything they have, including anything they may have pulled from the GNIB office

Lion2208 wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:56 am
My friend wants to apply for FOI for his Naturalization app. He wants to go into JR.
Can anyone tell me please,
What records i can ask for on the application. As to figure out everything is ok on my Naturalization app.
Is it DOJ record only?
And GNIB record?
Can someone please advise plz
Thanks

johnpromise01
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:39 am
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by johnpromise01 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:00 pm

polarcub wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:12 pm
The FOI is made with the DOJ
In the form you ask for: all pertaining information and documentation held on the citizenship application, and provide them with the application #
You don't need to separately ask for GNIB records nor contact that office, if this is for a citizenship application. The DOJ will give you everything they have, including anything they may have pulled from the GNIB office

Lion2208 wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:56 am
My friend wants to apply for FOI for his Naturalization app. He wants to go into JR.
Can anyone tell me please,
What records i can ask for on the application. As to figure out everything is ok on my Naturalization app.
Is it DOJ record only?
And GNIB record?
Can someone please advise plz
Thanks
Can FOI request be made twice? Requested one last year July, thinking of requesting for another one but not sure they will consider it.

pluto1992
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:03 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:47 pm

johnpromise01 wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:00 pm
Can FOI request be made twice? Requested one last year July, thinking of requesting for another one but not sure they will consider it.
Yes you can order twice ... I have done it myself

Dodi412
Newbie
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:00 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dodi412 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:13 pm

Hello folks
Did anyone apply for JR and never got a decision?
Or is it 100% guaranteed you get a decision after the JR in high court.

I might have asked this before but just wanted to be sure that i get a decision after applying for JR and not wasting my time and money.
Cheers ;)

Vorona
- thin ice -
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:34 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:05 pm

Dodi412 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:13 pm
I might have asked this before but just wanted to be sure that i get a decision after applying for JR and not wasting my time and money.
No one here can ensure or guarantee that you will get a decision after going for judicial review and not end up losing money and time. It is up to you to decide.

Dodi412
Newbie
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:00 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dodi412 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:25 pm

Vorona wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:05 pm
Dodi412 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:13 pm
I might have asked this before but just wanted to be sure that i get a decision after applying for JR and not wasting my time and money.
No one here can ensure or guarantee that you will get a decision after going for judicial review and not end up losing money and time. It is up to you to decide.

Thank you for your reply Vorona.

I just wanted to know if anyone applied for it but never got anything back as a result, that’s all!

littlerr
Diamond Member
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by littlerr » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:35 am

Judicial review is a legal process. If you win, the minister must give you a decision. However, there is no guarantee that the judicial review will proceed, or that you will win the judicial review.

If the judicial review does proceed and eventually you lose the case, you will be responsible for thousands of euros of legal fee for both your lawyer and the government’s lawyers.

Requesting for an FOI is usually the first step towards a judicial review. You need that to justify why you want to initiate a judicial review. However, it doesn’t mean that you will automatically win the judicial review. For example, information that may adversely affect national security will not be included in your FOI report, and the minister would only disclose this information to the judge.

Also bear in mind that even if you do win the judicial review, it doesn’t mean you will get an approval. That only compels the minister to give you a decision. That decision can be positive or negative.

Dodi412
Newbie
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:00 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dodi412 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:57 am

littlerr wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:35 am
Judicial review is a legal process. If you win, the minister must give you a decision. However, there is no guarantee that the judicial review will proceed, or that you will win the judicial review.

If the judicial review does proceed and eventually you lose the case, you will be responsible for thousands of euros of legal fee for both your lawyer and the government’s lawyers.

Requesting for an FOI is usually the first step towards a judicial review. You need that to justify why you want to initiate a judicial review. However, it doesn’t mean that you will automatically win the judicial review. For example, information that may adversely affect national security will not be included in your FOI report, and the minister would only disclose this information to the judge.

Also bear in mind that even if you do win the judicial review, it doesn’t mean you will get an approval. That only compels the minister to give you a decision. That decision can be positive or negative.

You explained everything very well. Thank you so much for that, really appreciate it.

What makes someone loose the JR and pay thousands of euros as you mentioned. If someone has be waiting for 2 years and all documents been submitted in full would they still loose? Do you know what are the main reasons to loose a JR case?

littlerr
Diamond Member
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 pm
China

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by littlerr » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:59 pm

Most judicial reviews (for citizenship applications) won't proceed to the hearing stage. The minister would normally file a Statement of Opposition to outlines why the judicial review shouldn't proceed (usually the reason is always 'a final decision would be issued within 28 days'). If the judge and you both agree, the judicial review won't proceed. (I.e. this means you only need to pay a small amount of fee to the solicitor, and in return you get a decision back in 28 days.)

If the minister does agree to proceed to the hearing stage, 9 times out of 10, the minister would have a valid reason. Therefore, in these scenarios there's no guarantee that the applicant would win the case. It could be a delay with your own country's authorities, or in the name of public interest (i.e. some potential offences that cannot be disclosed in your FOI).

polarcub
Member
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:20 am
Mood:
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:40 pm

Do they actually check with foreign authorities? And if so, what are they checking? Are you100% sure this happens? or is this a myth.... I haven't seen anything in the FOIs on this nor on any thread

Re national security etc - that I have heard of - cases where for example the minister was looking into whether an application was based on fraud etc.

Vorona
- thin ice -
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:34 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:41 pm

They absolutely can request information from another countries and they do if they need to.
Even after successful naturalisation they can still investigate alleged fraud. There's been at least a few such cases in the media where people's real identity and background was revealed 15 or more years later. Amount of information Department can gather about applicant is not to be undermined.

Then can check if the passports or other documents are genuine or fake, criminal background, reports from another countries where person may have lived.

pluto1992
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:03 pm
Ireland

Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:26 pm

A veteran of 2 FOIs, I can confirm that in the last 3 years of the processing of my application, no request had been made to any foreign country/authority where I have lived in the last 9 years prior to my application. BTW, I have lived in 2 countries prior to coming to Ireland. Also, the checklist that comes with the FOI, it shows all records were released to me and no documents were withheld.

Post Reply
cron