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Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

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littlerr
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by littlerr » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:29 pm

polarcub wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:40 pm
Do they actually check with foreign authorities? And if so, what are they checking? Are you100% sure this happens? or is this a myth.... I haven't seen anything in the FOIs on this nor on any thread

Re national security etc - that I have heard of - cases where for example the minister was looking into whether an application was based on fraud etc.
Myth? Why would you think of that? It happens all the time dude. I’m 10000% sure it happens all the time, if that comes as a comfort. The new streamlined process actually makes this even easier.

Vorona
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:36 pm

pluto1992 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:26 pm
A veteran of 2 FOIs, I can confirm that in the last 3 years of the processing of my application, no request had been made to any foreign country/authority where I have lived in the last 9 years prior to my application. BTW, I have lived in 2 countries prior to coming to Ireland. Also, the checklist that comes with the FOI, it shows all records were released to me and no documents were withheld.
I got mine too. A reference letter from one of my referees was not there, and it's not in the checklist. I am confident that they're only disclosing what they're allowed to disclose.

littlerr
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by littlerr » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:37 pm

By the way, we have a fresh example just a couple of months ago where a person's citizenship application was rejected due to unauthorised travel history. That person had been demeaning to INIS (and to Vorona :p) saying that the FOI revealed they haven't done anything for over 2 years, when in fact INIS has been actively checking with foreign authority and airlines where the travel happened.

There was also a case last year if I remember correctly, where the minister refused to reveal what was the main reason of refusal, citing national security concerns.

National security is a very broad title. Anything that they deem in the interest of national security won't be revealed to you.

pluto1992
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:22 am

Vorona wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:36 pm
pluto1992 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:26 pm
A veteran of 2 FOIs, I can confirm that in the last 3 years of the processing of my application, no request had been made to any foreign country/authority where I have lived in the last 9 years prior to my application. BTW, I have lived in 2 countries prior to coming to Ireland. Also, the checklist that comes with the FOI, it shows all records were released to me and no documents were withheld.
I got mine too. A reference letter from one of my referees was not there, and it's not in the checklist. I am confident that they're only disclosing what they're allowed to disclose.
What is a reference letter in naturalisation application?
You are saying you are confident they are only disclosing some not all record ... Is this based on some evidence or is this just a hunch?

pluto1992
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:31 am

littlerr wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:37 pm
By the way, we have a fresh example just a couple of months ago where a person's citizenship application was rejected due to unauthorised travel history. That person had been demeaning to INIS (and to Vorona :p) saying that the FOI revealed they haven't done anything for over 2 years, when in fact INIS has been actively checking with foreign authority and airlines where the travel happened.

There was also a case last year if I remember correctly, where the minister refused to reveal what was the main reason of refusal, citing national security concerns.

National security is a very broad title. Anything that they deem in the interest of national security won't be revealed to you.
The purpose of FoI is to increase transparency of a process which otherwise is as opaque as they come. If what you are saying is correct, that is, some records are released while some are withheld without even acknowledging their existence, then my friend, the department is breaking the law.
As for the examples you have quoted, you know and I know, asylum seekers are treated differently. Its because the basis on which the application has been lodged. Thats completely different from someone whose residence is based on lets say critical skills permit or medical profession. Based on the evidence in my hand, I doubt that the department contacts any foreign bodies other than may be EU SIS or UK immigration system.

Vorona
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:02 pm

pluto1992 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:22 am
What is a reference letter in naturalisation application?
a letter about you that one of your referees may be asked to write. My friend was contacted and she gave them a short reference which I don't see it in the disclosure.

If you are confident that Department is breaking the law, then speak to a legal advisor and see your options.

Dub23
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dub23 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:12 pm

Vorona wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:36 pm
pluto1992 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:26 pm
A veteran of 2 FOIs, I can confirm that in the last 3 years of the processing of my application, no request had been made to any foreign country/authority where I have lived in the last 9 years prior to my application. BTW, I have lived in 2 countries prior to coming to Ireland. Also, the checklist that comes with the FOI, it shows all records were released to me and no documents were withheld.
I got mine too. A reference letter from one of my referees was not there, and it's not in the checklist. I am confident that they're only disclosing what they're allowed to disclose.
Hi Verona,

After how many months did you decide to submit an FOI request? I think you applied at the beginning of 2020 and I applied in June 2020. You've since gotten your approval and I am still waiting on mine. :-) I am just wondering at what point I should consider submitting an FOI. I have no plans of going down JR route as it not close to 2 years.

Thanks

Vorona
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:23 pm

Dub23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:12 pm
After how many months did you decide to submit an FOI request? I think you applied at the beginning of 2020 and I applied in June 2020. You've since gotten your approval and I am still waiting on mine. :-) I am just wondering at what point I should consider submitting an FOI. I have no plans of going down JR route as it not close to 2 years.
I got my file at the end of March. It was an email with a lot of poorly-scanned documents in pdf format. I was just curious if I see anything interesting. You can get your file regardless of your plans for judicial review or how long you have waited. Everyone has a right to get a copy of their data.

Dub23
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dub23 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:35 pm

Vorona wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:23 pm
Dub23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:12 pm
After how many months did you decide to submit an FOI request? I think you applied at the beginning of 2020 and I applied in June 2020. You've since gotten your approval and I am still waiting on mine. :-) I am just wondering at what point I should consider submitting an FOI. I have no plans of going down JR route as it not close to 2 years.
I got my file at the end of March. It was an email with a lot of poorly-scanned documents in pdf format. I was just curious if I see anything interesting. You can get your file regardless of your plans for judicial review or how long you have waited. Everyone has a right to get a copy of their data.
Thanks Verona. I am just paranoid that if I request an FOI too early that the department will "mark" my application and then delay my application i.e. I don't want to upset them or give them a reason to delay my application :-)

pluto1992
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:41 pm

Vorona wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:02 pm
pluto1992 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:22 am
What is a reference letter in naturalisation application?
a letter about you that one of your referees may be asked to write. My friend was contacted and she gave them a short reference which I don't see it in the disclosure.

If you are confident that Department is breaking the law, then speak to a legal advisor and see your options.
This is the first time I am hearing of any referee been ever contacted by the department.

I dont think the department is breaking the law. I think its a misconception that they contact foreign govt/bodies other than maybe EU bodies. I think they are either totally incompetent (24k people waiting is the proof) or they have some sort of unwritten rules i.e. how many to approve in a year or something like that. And we, simplistic people think as if its a most complex job in the world thats why we invent these imaginary tasks for the department which they themselves might not have thought of. Why I say that is when you threaten them through a solicitor that you are going to start JR proceedings, suddenly you get a decision within weeks. How does that happen if they were waiting on foreign bodies to respond? Foreign govt/bodies dont care what JR is and they least care whether one get citizenship or not. But how does suddenly everything fall in line when you threaten them with JR. The whole process is a joke. Period.

Vorona
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:52 pm

Then you pretty much know what to do. What else to say. Good luck with getting a decision.

pluto1992
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:53 pm

Dub23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:35 pm
Thanks Verona. I am just paranoid that if I request an FOI too early that the department will "mark" my application and then delay my application i.e. I don't want to upset them or give them a reason to delay my application :-)
Your paranoia is not unfounded. You might be right. The officers in this department have extraordinary powers that cant really be challenged. Stay put, hopefully your wait wont be as long as mine.

Dub23
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Dub23 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:55 pm

pluto1992 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:53 pm
Dub23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:35 pm
Thanks Verona. I am just paranoid that if I request an FOI too early that the department will "mark" my application and then delay my application i.e. I don't want to upset them or give them a reason to delay my application :-)
Your paranoia is not unfounded. You might be right. The officers in this department have extraordinary powers that cant really be challenged. Stay put, hopefully your wait wont be as long as mine.
Thanks. I am only on month 10 of waiting, so not that long compared to other individuals. :-)

johnpromise01
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by johnpromise01 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:06 pm

Last month I made a request FOI on citizenship file and they wrote in their acknowledgement that:

"A final decision on your request would normally be sent to you within 4 weeks, where a
week is defined as 5 working days excluding the weekend and public holidays. This
means that you can expect a decision letter to issue not later than 27/04/2021".


But today is 27/04/2021 and I am yet to get a decision on FOI. What could have happened?

pluto1992
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:12 pm

johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:06 pm
Last month I made a request FOI on citizenship file and they wrote in their acknowledgement that:

"A final decision on your request would normally be sent to you within 4 weeks, where a
week is defined as 5 working days excluding the weekend and public holidays. This
means that you can expect a decision letter to issue not later than 27/04/2021".


But today is 27/04/2021 and I am yet to get a decision on FOI. What could have happened?
Usually they do respond within the time frame and let you know in case they need more time usually another 4 weeks. Day is not over yet, you might get an email shortly

polarcub
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 pm

How are you so certain? do you have proof to back this up? And how is the new streamlined process making it easier?
littlerr wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:29 pm
polarcub wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:40 pm
Do they actually check with foreign authorities? And if so, what are they checking? Are you100% sure this happens? or is this a myth.... I haven't seen anything in the FOIs on this nor on any thread

Re national security etc - that I have heard of - cases where for example the minister was looking into whether an application was based on fraud etc.
Myth? Why would you think of that? It happens all the time dude. I’m 10000% sure it happens all the time, if that comes as a comfort. The new streamlined process actually makes this even easier.

polarcub
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:06 pm

They have a lot of FOIs to deal with. They quote everyone with a date, and then miss the date. It's routine.
Just follow up by email, so your FOI doesn't fall through the cracks. Expect to wait another 4 weeks to get it.
johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:06 pm
Last month I made a request FOI on citizenship file and they wrote in their acknowledgement that:

"A final decision on your request would normally be sent to you within 4 weeks, where a
week is defined as 5 working days excluding the weekend and public holidays. This
means that you can expect a decision letter to issue not later than 27/04/2021".


But today is 27/04/2021 and I am yet to get a decision on FOI. What could have happened?

polarcub
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:10 pm

FOIs are routine. They have 24k applications. Many people are requesting it. I highly doubt they are that organised to take personal action on your application.

An FOI is a right. It's not "annoying" the department, it's your right. Some people on these threads have found mistakes and corrected them in their FOI, which lead to a faster approval. You can also not do an FOI. Both actions make no impact on processing your application.
Dub23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:35 pm
Vorona wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:23 pm
Dub23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:12 pm
After how many months did you decide to submit an FOI request? I think you applied at the beginning of 2020 and I applied in June 2020. You've since gotten your approval and I am still waiting on mine. :-) I am just wondering at what point I should consider submitting an FOI. I have no plans of going down JR route as it not close to 2 years.
I got my file at the end of March. It was an email with a lot of poorly-scanned documents in pdf format. I was just curious if I see anything interesting. You can get your file regardless of your plans for judicial review or how long you have waited. Everyone has a right to get a copy of their data.
Thanks Verona. I am just paranoid that if I request an FOI too early that the department will "mark" my application and then delay my application i.e. I don't want to upset them or give them a reason to delay my application :-)

polarcub
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by polarcub » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:16 pm

Do you know this to be absolutely true and routine in the processing stage? This would take a lot of manpower and $.

Surely, it's in circumstances where they suspect fraud (and/or what seems to be discriminating based on nationality)


Vorona wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:41 pm
They absolutely can request information from another countries and they do if they need to.
Even after successful naturalisation they can still investigate alleged fraud. There's been at least a few such cases in the media where people's real identity and background was revealed 15 or more years later. Amount of information Department can gather about applicant is not to be undermined.

Then can check if the passports or other documents are genuine or fake, criminal background, reports from another countries where person may have lived.

nojoyfrominis
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by nojoyfrominis » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:36 pm

Reference letter is not included as it is written by someone else. It is data about you confidentially provided by third party. So doesn’t come under the realms of foi

Vorona
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by Vorona » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:53 pm

nojoyfrominis wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:36 pm
Reference letter is not included as it is written by someone else. It is data about you confidentially provided by third party. So doesn’t come under the realms of foi
the same can be said about any other external reports. I found out about the reference when she texted me saying that they got in touch with her.

johnpromise01
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by johnpromise01 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:27 pm

polarcub wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:06 pm
They have a lot of FOIs to deal with. They quote everyone with a date, and then miss the date. It's routine.
Just follow up by email, so your FOI doesn't fall through the cracks. Expect to wait another 4 weeks to get it.
johnpromise01 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:06 pm
Last month I made a request FOI on citizenship file and they wrote in their acknowledgement that:

"A final decision on your request would normally be sent to you within 4 weeks, where a
week is defined as 5 working days excluding the weekend and public holidays. This
means that you can expect a decision letter to issue not later than 27/04/2021".


But today is 27/04/2021 and I am yet to get a decision on FOI. What could have happened?
Then at least any missed FOI request's date deserved a notice of extention before or on the initial expected date of a decision. Today is the final expected date for a decision but I have received nothing so far.

johnpromise01
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by johnpromise01 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:48 pm

I got my minors FOI request decision today and I still did not understand. Below is the content. I will have to contact my solicitor:

Your request sought - Copy of my child’s Citizenship file


Decision


A final decision was made on your request by a HEO in this Department. I am sorry to inform you that we cannot locate the records and that I must therefore refuse your request. This decision is made under section 15(1)(a) of the Act. Section 15(1)(a) of the Act states that an FOI request may be refused if: "the record concerned does not exist or cannot be found after all reasonable steps to ascertain its whereabouts have been taken"

1. Rights of Review In the event that you are not happy with this decision you may seek a review of this decision by writing to the Freedom of Information Unit, foi@justice.ie seeking an internal review of the matter and referring to or enclosing a copy of this letter. You should submit this within 4 weeks from the date of this notification, where a day is defined as a working day excluding the weekend and public holidays.....



What could be the reason? Or they lost my minors application and documents?

pluto1992
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by pluto1992 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:52 pm

"the record concerned does not exist or cannot be found after all reasonable steps to ascertain its whereabouts have been taken"

You should first rule out the first part of that statement that is the record concerned does not exist. Maybe if you have an email where you inquired about the status of minor's application and they would have responded saying something like continue to be processed or advanced stage of processing ... maybe use that email response as an evidence to appeal and tell them that the record does exist.

johnpromise01
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Re: Citizenship delays: FOI and an application for an Order for Mandamus via the High Courts

Post by johnpromise01 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:28 pm

pluto1992 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:52 pm
"the record concerned does not exist or cannot be found after all reasonable steps to ascertain its whereabouts have been taken"

You should first rule out the first part of that statement that is the record concerned does not exist. Maybe if you have an email where you inquired about the status of minor's application and they would have responded saying something like continue to be processed or advanced stage of processing ... maybe use that email response as an evidence to appeal and tell them that the record does exist.
I have acknowledgement letters from them but no reference number and receipts of payment. . I also have email replies from them. All are about my minors applications.

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