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*Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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sokuvi
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Does Intra Country Transfer (ICT) based Stamp 1 count for 5 years residency for Irish Citizenship

Post by sokuvi » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:43 pm

Hi all

I have a query for which I have got mixed responses from various people.
Query: If one spends e.g. 3 years on STAMP1 which was given on the back of ICT work permit, will those count towards the 5/9 years residency one needs for citizenship.

The residency calculator only states about stamps i.e. Stamp 1 is eligible for residency. However it does not state of stamp 1 given on back of ICT also qualifies.

I have heard from some friends (again its their understanding), that only stamp 1 given on back of General Work Permit or Critical skills work permit is counted as recognizable residency for Irish Passport.

Can anyone please suggest if they have had any first hand experience/know people who has successfully/unsuccessfully applied for citizenship on the basis on ICT Stamp 1?

Thanks in advance

Regards

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Re: Does Intra Country Transfer (ICT) based Stamp 1 count for 5 years residency for Irish Citizenship

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:10 pm

Stamp 1 is considered as reconnable residence for the purposes of naturalisation.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/inis/pages/re ... ralisation.
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sokuvi
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Re: Does Intra Country Transfer (ICT) based Stamp 1 count for 5 years residency for Irish Citizenship

Post by sokuvi » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:25 pm

Thanks for the response.

My query was very specific to stamp 1 given on back of ICT.
Irrespective of the type work permit you hold (ICT, GP, CSV), the stamp given is always Stamp 1

There is a mention that holders on Intra Company Transfers are not eligible for long term residency.


Holders of Intra-Company Transfer Employment Permits do not accrue rights for long term residency purposes as the Employment Permit is available on the basis that the employment is temporary.


https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/What-We-Do ... nt-Permit/

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Re: Does Intra Country Transfer (ICT) based Stamp 1 count for 5 years residency for Irish Citizenship

Post by littlerr » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:51 am

Your question was answered by the Minister herself last month.
Residence based on a Stamp 1 immigration permission, issued for the purpose of an ICT permit, is considered as reckonable residence for naturalisation purposes and it is open to the holder to lodge an application for a certificate of naturalisation if they have 5 years (60 months) reckonable residency on the date of the application.
It is not considered reckonable residence for the purpose of LTR applications only.

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Re: Does Intra Country Transfer (ICT) based Stamp 1 count for 5 years residency for Irish Citizenship

Post by Obie » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:23 pm

littlerr wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:51 am
Your question was answered by the Minister herself last month.


It is not considered reckonable residence for the purpose of LTR applications only.
Indeed
How do I know if I am ineligible to apply for Long Term Residency? wrote:
Applications for Long Term Residency cannot be accepted from persons listed in the following categories:

The applicant is an EEA National (EU member states, Iceland, Liechtenstein & Norway).

The applicant has permission to remain on the basis of his/her marriage to an Irish national (refer applicant to Spouse of Irish National Unit).

The applicant has permission to remain on the basis of his/her marriage to an EEA national. (refer applicant to EU Treaty Rights Section)

The applicant has permission to remain on Student Conditions (Stamp 2 & Stamp 2A)

The applicant has been made redundant and has been lawfully resident and worked for 5 years with an employment permit issued by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation or has been lawfully resident and has worked in accordance with an employment permit for less than 5 years and has been made redundant involuntarily. (See "Policy for 5 year workers and redundant workers ").

The applicant has permission to remain under the old IBC and IBC-05 schemes or has had such permission renewed. (refer to IBC section)

The applicant was granted permission to remain under the Turkish Agreement (Turkish Association – Stamp 4 for 1 year – renewable with local Immigration Officer)

The applicant was granted permission to remain under humanitarian Permission to Remain (formerly Leave to Remain) or was granted Refugee Status or entered the State under the Family Reunification scheme.

The applicant has permission to remain on the basis of an Intra-company Transfer.

The applicant is working at a foreign embassy in the State.
Permission to Remain issued under the Work Holiday Authorisation scheme (see www.dfa.ie) is not counted for the purposes of Long Term Residency.

The applicant holds only Green Card (Employment) permits.

The Applicant currently resident in the State under Business Permission.
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Re: Does Intra Country Transfer (ICT) based Stamp 1 count for 5 years residency for Irish Citizenship

Post by sokuvi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:18 pm

Thanks for your response. It helps

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*Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by sokuvi » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:31 pm

Hi all
Have a query regarding my eligibility to apply for Irish citizenship based on 5 out of 9 years rule on work permit. My Ireland presence is as follows. All presence in Ireland was based on Stamp 1
  • First trip – 2 years’ work permit – Stamp 1 [/code]
Stamp 1 was valid from 19th Sept’13 to 18th August’15 (Total 698 days)
During this period, I was out of Ireland for a total of 137 days (6 trips for Business/Personal reasons ranging from 1-5 weeks per trip).
Since I was out of Ireland for more than 6 weeks in a year, I would assume that all these 137 days would not be counted for towards residency.
Hence, I was a resident in Ireland for 698-137 = 561 days

Post my first assignment got over, I returned back to my home country for ~2 years (26 months). I came back to Ireland on work permit (Stamp 1)

  • Second Trip – 6th Oct’17 till date (31st Dec’20) – Stamp 1
During this period, I was out of Ireland for less than 6 weeks per year. Hence, I would count all if the period as recognizable residency. This would be another 1182 days

Hence till date my total recognizable residency becomes 561 (Stay 1) +1182 (Stay 2 till date) =1743 days
This make a deficit of 1826-1743 =83 days until end of Dec’20
This means I can apply for naturalization by end of March’21 (another 90 days)

Queries:
  • Q1: Is my above calculation and understanding correct and can I apply by end of Mar'21?
  • Q2: Will a long term absence (~2+ years) and many travels (~137 days/698 days during my first stay) impact my application?
Thanking in advance

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by Vorona » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:11 pm

Best and easiest way to check is to use the residency calculator tool. Enter all your permission stamps as per your registration except for years when you were away for more than 6 weeks per any 12 months of legal residence period. For those enter only the dates when you were physically present in Ireland.

If you have 1825 or 1826 days of physical presence in Ireland over the last nine years, of which 365 or 366 were immediately before the date of your application, you will qualify.

Bear in mind this will be re-checked. You will have to give them a list of all your absences from Ireland over 6 weeks per any 12 months period of your legal residence.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by sokuvi » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:32 pm

Thanks

The online calculator mentions dated of stamps.

As per your suggestion, I will need to create multiple start and end dates for the period I was in Ireland for one stamp date on GNIB/IRP.

e.g. the actual start and end date on GNIB will be 19/09/2013 to 22/08/2014.
However I will need to create multiple entries e.g.
19/09/2013 to 01/12/2014
02/01/2014 to 05/06/2014 (30 days absence)
07/07/2014 to 22/08/2014 (32 days absence)

Will this be ok for the application?

Regards

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by Vorona » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:22 pm

You can enter multiple period for the same permission. Print out the results and make a note next to the absences that those are absences because any period totalling more than 6 weeks per year spent outside of country will not be considered as reckonable residence.
Then deduct the absences from the total number of days and you will get the number for reckonable residence.

This is what I did with mine and I had no problem whatsoever. It was accepted.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by sokuvi » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Thanks

And when we day 6 weeks per year, it would the one stamp year and not calendar year correct?
e.g. if my year 1 stamp is 5th June'18 to 5th June'19 and year 2 stamp is 4th June'19 to 4th June'20
If I travel for 4 weeks in Feb'19 (1st Stamp period) and another 5 weeks in Sept'19 (2nd Stamp period),
then both years i.e. entire 2 year period from 5th June'18 until 4th June'20 would be fully counted towards eligible residency even though I was out for 9 weeks in calendar year?

Regards

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by Vorona » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:40 pm

That's correct. A year is a fiscal year, not a calendar year.
If you had a permission from June 2018 to June 2019 then you need to check if you have or haven't had more than 6 week of absence within that period. If you spent 6 or more weeks (42 days) outside of Ireland in that year, you have to deduct those days from that year. They will not be recognised as reckonable residence. If it's less than 6 week then you don't need to deduct anything.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by Vorona » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:32 pm

Oops... forgot to add that you have to deduct entire absence, not only the days over 6 weeks from your calculation if you spent more than 6 weeks per year outside of of Ireland.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by sokuvi » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:16 pm

Thanks for the information, It helps.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by ciaomao » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:51 pm

Vorona wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:40 pm
That's correct. A year is a fiscal year, not a calendar year.
If you had a permission from June 2018 to June 2019 then you need to check if you have or haven't had more than 6 week of absence within that period. If you spent 6 or more weeks (42 days) outside of Ireland in that year, you have to deduct those days from that year. They will not be recognised as reckonable residence. If it's less than 6 week then you don't need to deduct anything.
Hello,

are you sure that a year is a fiscal year and not a calendar year? where is this mentioned?

Thank you,
Kind Regards

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by littlerr » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:14 pm

The term ‘year’ is always referred to each of the 365 or 366 days prior to you signing your name on the application form. There should be no ambiguity in that, especially given that it is at the centre of the High Court and Court of Appeal cases.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by wattm » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:56 am

Vorona wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:32 pm
Oops... forgot to add that you have to deduct entire absence, not only the days over 6 weeks from your calculation if you spent more than 6 weeks per year outside of of Ireland.
Are you sure about this? I have checked this with a solicitor and they confirmed only days over 6 weeks per year should be deducted. i.e if you are outside the country for 6 weeks and 1 day, you must wait 1 more day before applying.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by littlerr » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:48 am

wattm wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:56 am
Vorona wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:32 pm
Oops... forgot to add that you have to deduct entire absence, not only the days over 6 weeks from your calculation if you spent more than 6 weeks per year outside of of Ireland.
Are you sure about this? I have checked this with a solicitor and they confirmed only days over 6 weeks per year should be deducted. i.e if you are outside the country for 6 weeks and 1 day, you must wait 1 more day before applying.
That solicitor needs to do his/her job properly then. If you are out for 43 days, you need to deduct 43 days.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by wattm » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:54 am

littlerr wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:48 am
wattm wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:56 am
Vorona wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:32 pm
Oops... forgot to add that you have to deduct entire absence, not only the days over 6 weeks from your calculation if you spent more than 6 weeks per year outside of of Ireland.
Are you sure about this? I have checked this with a solicitor and they confirmed only days over 6 weeks per year should be deducted. i.e if you are outside the country for 6 weeks and 1 day, you must wait 1 more day before applying.
That solicitor needs to do his/her job properly then. If you are out for 43 days, you need to deduct 43 days.
Understood. Thanks Littlerr.

Not to derail the conversation but the reason for my absence was my wedding. I have all the receipts, invitation card, etc. Do you think providing that can explain the absence?

I was also absent in 2017 for 50 days, 30 days of which was a business trip which I have a letter from my previous employer to explain it. Is there a specific requirement for the wording of that letter or something like "She was on a business trip and was working remotely for 30 days" is sufficient?

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by littlerr » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:29 am

Business trips are usually fine as long as they are accompanied by company headed letters. Weddings I’m not so sure. Better safe than sorry I’d say.

Btw - here is the explanation provided by the Minister on deducting the six weeks on their entirety: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/qu ... 10-01/241/

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by Vorona » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:38 pm

wattm wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:54 am
Not to derail the conversation but the reason for my absence was my wedding. I have all the receipts, invitation card, etc. Do you think providing that can explain the absence?

I was also absent in 2017 for 50 days, 30 days of which was a business trip which I have a letter from my previous employer to explain it. Is there a specific requirement for the wording of that letter or something like "She was on a business trip and was working remotely for 30 days" is sufficient?

You must explain longs absences any way regardless of what the reason was. The department will decide if the reasons were excusable enough. The worst that can happen is that your application will be found ineligible at the initial stage and you will be advised to apply when you qualify.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by wattm » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:51 pm

Vorona wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:38 pm
wattm wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:54 am
Not to derail the conversation but the reason for my absence was my wedding. I have all the receipts, invitation card, etc. Do you think providing that can explain the absence?

I was also absent in 2017 for 50 days, 30 days of which was a business trip which I have a letter from my previous employer to explain it. Is there a specific requirement for the wording of that letter or something like "She was on a business trip and was working remotely for 30 days" is sufficient?

You must explain longs absences any way regardless of what the reason was. The department will decide if the reasons were excusable enough. The worst that can happen is that your application will be found ineligible at the initial stage and you will be advised to apply when you qualify.
Got it, thanks Vorona.

How long does it take to get the refusal at the initial stage assuming they don't accept the explanation?

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by Vorona » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:13 pm

wattm wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:51 pm
How long does it take to get the refusal at the initial stage assuming they don't accept the explanation?
Ineligibility is not a refusal. Refusal is a decision given by the Minister at the final stage.
Applications failed at the initial stage are deemed ineligible as they do not satisfy reckonable residence criteria. Check the current timelines for returning passports. It may take several months.

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by ciaomao » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:57 pm

littlerr wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:29 am
Business trips are usually fine as long as they are accompanied by company headed letters. Weddings I’m not so sure. Better safe than sorry I’d say.

Btw - here is the explanation provided by the Minister on deducting the six weeks on their entirety: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/qu ... 10-01/241/
Hi, how do you know if business trips are fine? I was absent in 2018 for 83 days, 30 days for personal trips and 53 for business trips, i have HR letters to prove it, do you think i should deduct them?

Regards

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Re: *Help Needed* Irish Citizenship by naturalization - Is my calculation of recognizable residency correct?

Post by ciaomao » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:58 pm

Vorona wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:13 pm
wattm wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:51 pm
How long does it take to get the refusal at the initial stage assuming they don't accept the explanation?
Ineligibility is not a refusal. Refusal is a decision given by the Minister at the final stage.
Applications failed at the initial stage are deemed ineligible as they do not satisfy reckonable residence criteria. Check the current timelines for returning passports. It may take several months.
Hi Vorona, Do you have any idea if we should deduct business trips or not? I was absent in 2018 for 83 days, 30 days for personal trips and 53 for business trips, i have HR letters to prove it, do you think i should deduct them?
really appreciate your response!

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