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Irish citizen married to and nonEU member

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:40 pm

[/quote]I just got a response from the visa people they told me they are forwarding my enquiries onto the EUtreatyrights section in Dublin[quote]

I got pretty much the same response. I copied and pasted the email.


"Thank you for your enquiry. As you are an American citizen, you do not
require a visa to enter/stay in Ireland, so this query is not for the visa
office. I have referred your e-mail to the appropriate area: EU Treaty
Rights, Dept of Justice: eutreatyrights@justice.ie.
A member of staff from that area will reply to you regarding this matter.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Visa Section, Department of Justice, Equality & Law Reform
13-14 Burgh Quay,
Dublin 2"

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:57 pm

Yam Yam wrote:I now have the EU-1 and V.1.A forms
You do not want to use EU-1. That is for applying for a Residence Card, which you do after you arrive in Ireland and the EU citizen has gotten a job.

I am pretty sure you want to use the VA.1 form.

The people at the embassy in London seem to be trained to just deal with primarily the normal stuff. That is why it is very important to write a clear covering letter explaining your situation, and explaining how the EU law covers you (very carefully including words like Treaty Rights, Directive 2004/38/EC and Surinder Singh so that they know what to look up and refer back to Dublin).

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:42 am

Hey all just recieved this email this morning from the EUTreaty rights section!!!!

If you are the holder of an Irish passport your spouse does not qualify for
EU Treaty Rights as this is for non-EU nationals who are
spouse's/dependents of members of other EU Member States.

Your spouse can however, contact the nearest Irish Embassy/Consulate and
make a visa application to enter and reside in Ireland as the spouse of an
Irish citizen.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:47 am

Don't be put off. Apply for the visa with a clear cover letter.

And be sure to contact http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/ as soon as possible for a legal opinion of whether Irish citizens who have been living in another member state and are returning are covered by EU law. The answer is yes, but you will be reassured to get official cover.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:12 am

Are they trying to tell me that if I was for example from Germany I would not have any problem bringing my husband with me to Ireland!!!!

This is a joke Iam an Irish citizen...and I dont have the same rights as other EU members just because Im Irish....I have emailed the European Commission this morning asking for there advice!

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Post by archigabe » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:08 am

Even if you were German,unless you were living with your spouse in another European Country you would have no rights to bring your spouse.EU citizens have less rights than work permit holders( say from Asia) to bring their spouses over.
If you are Irish, it's completely upto the discretion of the embassy/DOJ to decide if the marriage is genuine and whether you are allowed to bring your spouse.You have no legal rights in that regard. Sometimes I think the guys who wrote up the regulations wrote it after a long night at the pub.Or maybe there is a pub attached to the DOJ.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:18 am

I'm just searching the web to try find some articles to help me ...I reckon the more I send them the better! Somebody told me think of it like a court case! You need all the evidence you can get to prove your case!

I found this online?

9. Marriage to Irish and EU citizens
9.1 Definition
Irish citizens and other EU citizens working in the State have the right to have a married[27] partner live with them even if they are a non-EEA national. However, it must be stated that the rights that pertain to each differ.

We learned in Section 2 that the primary beneficiaries of Community law are EU citizens who have moved to another Member State to work. Moreover, we learned that these individuals have the right to have their partner and dependent family members reside with them in that Member State. As a result of case law,[28] it was ruled that partners of EU citizens who have moved to another Member State to work, come directly within the scope of EU community law, and indeed, should be granted all the same rights as their EU partner. This means that these categories of persons are the most privileged beneficiaries of Community law after EU citizens themselves. Their rights are referred to as ‘derived rights’ – as they are derived from their partner.

The situation for partners of Irish citizens is somewhat different. They do not come within the scope of Community law because their partner has not gone to another Member State to work i.e. they need to activate the movement clause if they want to enjoy Community law rights. There are only two ways to overcome this:

If the Irish citizen married their partner in another Member State, was working there and then moved back to Ireland to work Because they have activated the movement clause, they come within the scope of Community law.
If the Irish citizen goes over to another Member State to work with their married partner, they activate the Community law in that other country. Furthermore, if they return to Ireland, their partner would still be deemed to be a privileged beneficiary of Community law and would have the same rights as their partner. Unfortunately it is unclear at this time[29] how much time the couple would need to spend in another Member State for the non-EEA partner to benefit from Community law.
Non-EEA partners’ married to Irish citizens who have not activated the movement clause are referred to by Hailbronner (2000) and Barrett (2000) as ‘unprivileged’. However, the latter remarks that they may enjoy extensive rights under the domestic law of a particular Member State. In Ireland, there is no domestic law governing the situation of non-EEA partners of Irish citizens. However, Article 41 on the Family states the following:

(1) The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

(2) The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

Therefore, the State recognising the fundamental importance of the family and should confer all the same rights of the Irish citizen on to their non-EEA partner. Moreover, in contrast to EC law, the Irish citizen does not have to be working in order for their partner to be granted residency.

In all cases, the Department of Justice may interview the couple in question before they grant residency. They may seek supplementary documentation, in the form of Marriage Certificates, leases, bills and so on, to see if the couple are in a relationship together.

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Post by archigabe » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:32 am


ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:44 am

Opps!

4. EEA FAMILY PERMITS
In order to be able to benefit from European Community law, the EEA national must, among other things, be outside of her/his country of citizenship. It is for this reason that in Northern Ireland a person who holds dual British/Irish citizenship would rely on her/his Irish citizenship to support an application by a family member to enter the UK to reside with her/him.

Citizens of the EEA countries are entitled to live and work in the UK under European law and members of the family of an EEA national have rights to enter and remain and work in the UK along with the EEA national worker even if they are not EEA nationals themselves.

Citizens from the ‘new accession’ state, ie the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia, are currently referred to as the A8 nationals. Certain restrictions have been imposed on the first twelve months of an A8 national’s stay in the UK, a complete explanation of which is outside the scope of this document. However, their rights in relation to family reunion are explained at 4.2.2 below.

4.2 Family rights conferred through EEA citizenship
4.2.1 Right to remain
EEA citizens working here (either employed or self employed) are entitled to have their family members living with them in the UK, even when their family members are not EEA citizens themselves. For example, if an Irish passport holder who is living and working in Northern Ireland has non EEA family members, they can live here with her/him, irrespective of the family member’s nationality.

Even if the Irish spouse is not currently employed or self employed, it may be possible for her/him to qualify to bring her/his non EEA family member to the UK if s/he has previously worked in the UK and is unemployed but looking for work, retired or permanently incapacitated.

Where a British citizen has resided and worked in another EEA country and returns to the UK as a worker, her/his non EEA spouse/partner and/or family members may be able to join her/him, as a result of the case of Surinder Singh, which extended EEA rights in such instances. However, the recent case of Akrich in the European Court of Justice has resulted in a change to the immigration rules. The rules now state that, in order to be issued with an EEA family permit, the non EEA spouse/partner must have been lawfully resident in the other EEA country before applying to enter the UK.

The non EEA family members’ entitlement to remain in the UK exists under European law, irrespective of when the application for a family permit or residence document is made and irrespective of the Home Office delay in issuing the documents. It is an automatic entitlement and the application to the Home Office is simply a request for evidence of these rights.

‘Family members’ for the purposes of the EEA regulations, is defined as:

spouse; or

partner (after two or more years living together);

sons and daughters, grandsons and grand-daughters up to the age of 21, and over 21 if they are still dependent;

dependent parents, grandparents and great grandparents of either the EEA national or her/his spouse/partner.


Other relatives may qualify in certain circumstances.

4.2.2 A8 nationals and the right to remain
Where the A8 national is in the first twelve months of stay in the UK then s/he is entitled to be joined in the UK only by her/his spouse, their children who are aged under 21 or are dependent, and dependent relatives in the ascending line. The only difference of treatment compared to other EU nationals is that these A8 nationals do not benefit from the right to bring other, more distant, relatives over. However, it is important to note that it is not clear at present what status these family members are being given.

4.2.3 Other entitlements
Spouses, partners and other family members in the UK under these European rules are entitled to take employment, claim benefits and receive medical care under the NHS as well as social services, depending on their needs, in the same way as the EU nationals. However, it may be difficult to evidence these rights whilst the application is being processed.

4.3 Family permits
EEA family permits are a type of entry clearance or visa allowing the holder to enter the UK. They can be issued ‘over the counter’ at British embassies and consulates abroad without payment of a fee. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office website www.fco.gov.uk lists the British embassies abroad with their telephone and fax numbers as well as email addresses.

Applications for EEA family permits must be made to the UK visa authorities abroad, despite being based on the fact that one spouse/partner has a European passport other than British.

For dual Irish/British citizens living in Northern Ireland, an EEA family permit application is based on their Irish citizenship. They will therefore be required to produce their Irish passport as evidence of their Irish citizenship. Their British passport is not relevant to such an application.

Applicants for EEA family permits are required to show the original of the following documents:

the passports of both spouses/partners and any children or other family members to be included in the permit;

birth certificates of any children to be included on the family permit, naming both parents;

evidence such as birth or marriage certificates showing the relationships of any other family members covered by the application;

marriage certificate or evidence of at least two years co-habitation;

evidence of the EEA citizen's employment or self employment in the UK (such as wage slips, letter from employer, contract of employment, accounts etc); and

evidence that the EEA citizen lives in the UK (such as household bills in her/his name, tenancy agreement, mortgage documents etc).


Unlike an application for a UK spouse/partner visa, there is no requirement to show evidence of the financial standing of anyone involved in EEA family permit applications.

4.4. Right of residence in the UK
EEA family permits issued abroad are usually valid for six months. The family must travel to the UK during this time. Once in the UK, an application should be made by the European spouse/partner to the Home Office in Croydon for an EEA residence permit and an EEA residence document which consists of a stamp in the passport of the non-EEA spouse/partner. Likewise, if the non EEA spouse/partner and/or other family members are already in the UK in some other capacity, an application can be made for the EEA residence permit and residence document. Unlike most other Home Office applications, it is not necessary to use a particular form in this case, however, the Home Office has devised Forms EEA1 and 2 which request all relevant information and are easy to complete. EEA1 is for EEA nationals applying (naming their family members). EEA2 is for applications by non EEA family members of EEA nationals. Either form can be used and the procedure and requirements are the same. They are available on the Home Office website. This application is free.

The completed form should be sent to the UK Home Office in London, the address can be found at the end of Forms EEA1 and 2. Copy should be kept of all documents submitted and they should be sent via recorded delivery. The evidence required is basically the same as that listed above at paragraph 4.3 above. The proof of being employed in the UK can be provided by the employer signing the relevant section of the form. EEA residence permits and residence documents are usually valid for five years. However, where the applicant has temporary employment or is seeking work, they may be issued for shorter periods. Renewed applications can be made at the end of the period granted, depending on the circumstances at the time.

Generally speaking, EEA rights can be exercised irrespective of a person’s previous immigration status (eg, if s/he was here illegally before marrying an EEA national). Furthermore, there is no requirement that the non EEA family members entered the UK lawfully. However, the European Court of Justice case of Ackrich must be noted with caution. Mr Ackrich had a very poor immigration history, having been deported from the UK and re-entered illegally. This was among the factors which led to the European Court of Justice making an unusual decision that he could be refused an EEA permit. Following the decision in this case, the Home Office amended the immigration rules as referred to at paragraph 4.2 above.

After four years, providing the EEA spouse/partner is still working and living in the UK and the couple have not divorced, the non-European spouse/partner and family members will be able to apply for indefinite leave to remain in the UK. This is still the case if the couple are still married but not living together. The application can be made on Forms EEA3 and 4 which are available on the Home Office website.

Even if the couple divorce, there may be circumstances, such as having children at school in the UK, in which a further EEA residence document can be issued.

This area of law is often subject to change and development, therefore a person in immigration difficulties may wish to obtain expert advice.
Last edited by ciaramc on Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:52 am

ciaramc wrote:Here is another link we can never have too many!
Hi Ciara, can you please edit the post to delete the reference to the other website, and maybe just paste the text.This website has a policy of not linking to competitors.
thanks.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:54 am

Sure no problem sorry didn't realise!

limey
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Post by limey » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:49 am

Hey, I was going to ask that people always post the internet link when they paste text here. :?

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:03 pm

It's not a problem if the link is to an original source.Please do paste the link if it's to a newspaper,government website etc, only not to a similar discussion board.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:37 am

Just to update you all!

I replied to the EU Treaty Rights office in Dublin stating that I was getting in contact with the EU Comission to find out as an Irish citizen living and working in another EU member state had I got EU rights and surprise surprise they emailed me this morning and told me that I have got the right to use my EU treaty rights.....????

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:53 am

Good work!

I do not think they train the various government departments to realize some of the implications of European law. Good to remind them!

Can you perhaps post the full contents of the email you got back from them, with personal details blocked out.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:57 am

This wa the first email I got last week!

If you are the holder of an Irish passport your spouse does not qualify for
EU Treaty Rights as this is for non-EU nationals who are
spouse's/dependents of members of other EU Member States.

Your spouse can however, contact the nearest Irish Embassy/Consulate and
make a visa application to enter and reside in Ireland as the spouse of an
Irish citizen.

Regards,
EU Treaty Rights Section

This is what I wrote!!!!

I' m sorry but I do not understand very clearly! I'am an Irish passport
holder and yes I would like to move home to Ireland with my husband. I have
read the EU directive and from what I understood I am entitled to use my EU
treaty rights but basically you are telling me that because Im an Irish
citizen that I can not use them but if I was from another member state I
can?

I don't think this makes no sense to me it seems because I'am an Irish
citizen I have less rights than those from other member states?

Sorry to bother you again, but I do not understand very clearly?

I have also got in contact with the European Commission to ask there advise
but is there somewhere I can call or email in Ireland to help me on these
matters?
Thank you for your help on this matter

And this was there reply!

On reading your current email it would appear that you are in fact
exercising your EU Treaty Rights in another EU Member State therefore, your
spouse can make an application for EU Treaty Rights in this State.

If your spouse is a visa required national he should contact the nearest
Irish Embassy/Consulate and make a visa application to enter and reside in
Ireland as the spouse of an Irish citizen.

Upon entry into Ireland he should complete FORM EU 1 (see attachment) and
return it with the relevant documentation to: EU Treaty Rights Section,
INIS, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, 13/14 Burgh Quay,
Dublin 2 by registered post.

So????? What do you all think?

limey
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Post by limey » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:20 am

ciaramc: Nice one! When your spouse submits the EU1 form you should send a copy of that email to them with it. Otherwise, they may well just refuse the application and deny all knowledge! Sounds like they accept the Surinder Singh ruling applies to your case. 8)

It is their job to know the rules. But it appears that many of them don't and you get diffeent answers depending on who you talk to! Maybe they should employ some of the people from this forum!

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Post by archigabe » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:13 am

Good Work...But the catch to the whole thing is that using the E.U1 form to get residency is going take longer than applying for residency as spouse of Irish citizen. But of course, using the E.U treaty your husband is guaranteed the right to enter Ireland whereas it would be upto the discretion of the Embassy if he were to apply as the spouse of an Irish Citizen.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:00 pm

So when I apply using my EU treaty rights Im guarnteed to get my husband into Ireland?

Whereas if I use the normal form its at the discreation of the DOJ?

So if I use my EU trety rights how long when I go to Ireland will it take for the residency permit?What is the time difference between the 2? Its like a catfch 22 situation in one way EU treaty is better but also it can work out longer in the end?

Can they use my husband previous immigration history when considering him?

Will this also effect my husband applying for a Irish passport I know we have to be resident in Ireland 3 years before we can apply?

limey
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Post by limey » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:07 pm

It seems there is another advantage of the EU rules I think which may be of benefit to some people. In that they are more flexible in allowing more time to be spent outside of the host country and/or EU.

That is one reason I wanted to use the EU approach as my wife has business interests outside of the EU. As well of them being Free of course and a also formality as Archi pointed out.

Though I have read that visas for spouses of Irish citizens are also free!

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:09 pm

ciaramc wrote:So when I apply using my EU treaty rights Im guarnteed to get my husband into Ireland?

Whereas if I use the normal form its at the discreation of the DOJ?

So if I use my EU trety rights how long when I go to Ireland will it take for the residency permit?What is the time difference between the 2? Its like a catfch 22 situation in one way EU treaty is better but also it can work out longer in the end?

Can they use my husband previous immigration history when considering him?
Will this also effect my husband applying for a Irish passport I know we have to be resident in Ireland 3 years before we can apply?
Yes, if you both have lived in another E.U country as residents your husband is guaranteed a spouse visa under E.U treaty rights.(pls don't hold me to it...that's the understanding I have from personal experience and research)
Residency permits for E.U spouses are currently taking around 6month or more depending on circumstances whereas Irish spouse residency is just a matter of a week or even less.
DOJ might consider your husband's history.In the case of AKRICH who was moroccan married to British national they denied him residency based on immigration history. But if he already has residency in another E.U country you might be luckier.
An Irish passport for your husband might take longer as the DOJ/INIS changed the rules.
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000045

As far as I know, the Irish spouse visa costs some money,whereas the E.U spouse visa is free.

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Post by scrudu » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:36 am

Applications for D-Spouse Visas (Spouse of Irish Citizens) take 6-8 weeks. These applications are free of charge (as should all visas applications for spouses of EU citizens within the EU). If refused, you will need to appeal, or re-apply which will take another 6-8 weeks. My husbands application took 6/7 weeks to the date he got his passport returned. Yes, your husbands application will be considered at the discretion of the DoJ, and can be refused. There is no "right to residence" for spouses of Irish citizens. According to Directive/2004/38/EC there is a right of residence for spouses of EU citizens in EU countries, but this does not apply to Irish citizens in their own country unless they are exercising Treaty rights. The usual reason for applications being refused (for D-Spouse visas) seems to be RH, Relationship history. The DoJ while attempting to clamp down on Marriages of Convenience, scrutinises any applicaiton made by an Irish to non-EU citizen. Basically the onus is on you to prove your marriage is real.

As the posts on this forum have shown, no visa application is ever guaranteed. Although Directive/2004/38/EC was supposed to allow for freedom of movement of EU citizens and their family, the other posters on this site can attest to the fact that this is not the case, so it'd be naïve to say "your husband is guaranteed". You can check through other posts on EU1 applications, but I think all say that it is a minimum of 6 months for an answer to be received, many seem to be quite longer though.

As for your husband applying for Irish citizenship. Irregardless of whether he gets a Stamp 4 EUFAM based on an EU1 application, or a Stamp 4 based on a D-Spouse visa application, he will have to live with you in Ireland for 3 years before he can apply for naturalisation.

As for the DoJ considering your husbands immigration history. I am sure they will consider this. They do ask for copies of all pages of his passport, presumably to check his immigration history. As for whether they will refuse him because of a bad immigration history, I dont know. Usually they are checking to see whether he was in the same country as you at the same time, and that your Relationship history stands up to scrutiny. I do wonder though, for an application via the EU1 you will have to show you were both legally resident in another EU country (Italy). If your husband is still awaiting his Residence papers in Italy, how would you show this on your application? You would also need to show the same evidence for a D-Spouse Visa applicaton, as you will want to show that you aren't moving to Ireland simply for a residence permit. I understand that is not the case, but that is what the Case Officer will be checking for.
Limey: It seems there is another advantage of the EU rules I think which may be of benefit to some people. In that they are more flexible in allowing more time to be spent outside of the host country and/or EU.
I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Are you taking about subsequent application for Naturalisation? There is nothing specified in the Stamp 4 or Stamp 4EUFAM that says you have to reside for X days per year in the host country.

The bonus that I see to an EU1 application over the D-Spouse visa for the non-EU spouse granted is that many countries e.g. Germany (see http://www.dublin.diplo.de/Vertretung/d ... =Daten.pdf) will allow free travel (without visa) if your husband has this Stamp 4EUFam (when travelling with you) but do not do the same for those on Stamp 4 (spouse of Irish). Go figure!! This saves a LOT of hassle for EU Travel.

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Post by archigabe » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Hi Scrudu, are you saying that E.U spouses can by-pass applying for a schengen visa if they enter continental europe through Germany?

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Post by archigabe » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:49 am

Hi Limey,
the Irish spouse section of the FAQ's still seems to be up.The info has not been changed as far as I can see.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000120

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Post by scrudu » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:59 am

archigabe: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that some countries (Germany in this example) have taken Directive/2004/38/EC to mean that spouses of EU citizens will no longer require Schengen Visas to enter their country. According to the DE Embassy in Dublin [quote]If you are married to an EU-citizen but NOT to a German citizen and your Garda Card is a “4EUFamâ€

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