Irish citizen returning to Ireland after living in multiple EU countries with non-EU spouse.

Hi folks. I'm an Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland looking to return to Ireland with my non-EU wife.

My wife and I have been living in Spain for the last two months, and will shortly be going through the residency process here. Prior to this, we lived in the Netherlands for two years, and my wife holds a residence permit from the Netherlands issued as the family member of an EU citizen which is valid for another three years. I was working for the entire duration of our stay in the Netherlands.

We moved to Spain as she was offered a job here, however we have been talking about moving to Ireland in the near future to be closer to family and, honestly, because we would like to live in a country where we both speak the language. Due to Brexit, we have decided on the Republic rather than Northern Ireland. I am not currently working, however I hope to have enough savings in my Spanish bank account to obtain residency and prove that I can provide for the both of us. At the moment, this is around €14,000. I'm actively looking for work, but the appointment is in two weeks time.

I know that if my wife previously held a residence permit issued under EU law as the family member of an EU citizen exercising their treaty rights and working somewhere else, we can apply for residency in the Republic of Ireland under EU law rather than national law. However, I'm a little unsure about the rules when you have exercised your treaty rights in multiple EU countries.

I contacted the INIS in Dublin via email, who unfortunately weren't a lot of help, and I was wondering if anyone here can help shine some light on things for me. My questions are:

1. As the law states that I needed to have exercised my treaty rights in another EU state, will my time spent working in the Netherlands count even if I have been unemployed since then in Spain? Or, when I moved to Spain, was this reset? When registering in the Republic of Ireland I will be expected to show payslips to prove that I have been economically active, and can do so from May 2017 to July 2019 in NL.

2. If the latest country counts, is it enough to show that you were financially self-sustainable there, rather than employed?

3. Is the €14,000 in savings enough to show self-sufficiency? I know there is no threshold, but if others who have gone down this route can let me know how much money they showed for the self sufficiency requirement I would appreciate it.

4. While waiting for the Spanish residency permit, can my wife travel using the Dutch article 10 residence permit? Unfortunately we were required to de-register with the BRP when we left the Netherlands, and so for all intents and purposes are no longer resident there even when we don't have official residency status here. Will her passport be flagged, for example, if she tries to travel on this document? (As it's an article 10 document, it's valid for travel within the EEA when we travel together.)

5. If the Spanish residence permit is refused due to my economic status, can we apply in the Republic of Ireland using the Dutch residency permit even though we have not been residents there in six months? If the residency application is refused, we would prefer to head to Ireland around Christmas time.

Thank you all in advance.

p.s. I thought posting this here rather than the Ireland specific forum would be better. If not, please let me know and I'll post it there instead.

I apologise for the questions which aren't Ireland specific. I originally posted this in the EEA section and it was moved.

Hi

Your wife can get a Irish family visa (Join family visa) and is a long stay visa through INIS department which would allow for A stay of 6 months

Lee2521 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:56 am

Hi

Your wife can get a Irish family visa (Join family visa) and is a long stay visa through INIS department which would allow for A stay of 6 months

As I've exercised my treaty rights in another EU state, I was under the impression that we can apply via the EEA route, rather than the Join Family visa which has further requirements (such as income).

The INIS have confirmed this for me in the last few days, however they haven't been able to answer my questions about having lived in multiple EU countries. More specifically, if I work in one state and move to another where I'm not working, can I use my time from the first country when applying.

hombredeirlandomebreda wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:33 am

Lee2521 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:56 am

Hi

Your wife can get a Irish family visa (Join family visa) and is a long stay visa through INIS department which would allow for A stay of 6 months

As I've exercised my treaty rights in another EU state, I was under the impression that we can apply via the EEA route, rather than the Join Family visa which has further requirements (such as income).

The INIS have confirmed this for me in the last few days, however they haven't been able to answer my questions about having lived in multiple EU countries. More specifically, if I work in one state and move to another where I'm not working, can I use my time from the first country when applying.

Hi Homebredeirlandomebreda

Here are some links which will hopefully help

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/r ... dex_en.htm

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/m ... eland.html


Regards

Lee

Hi,

You are correct that once you have exercised your treaty rights in another EU country you are able to transfer those rights to Ireland on return. This is provided that your spouse has attained a Residency Card of a Family Member of a Union Citizen (EU Fam card). I also lived in Spain, and later returned to Ireland and transferred those rights. I now live in Germany.

As per O and B V The Netherlands, there are four criteria to be met by an EU citizen returning from a Host Member State to their home Member State and for their family members to have their derived rights of residence extended there. They are: i) that the EU citizen genuinely resided in another EU State for a period of at least three months; ii) that the EU citizen exercised their Treaty rights there in accordance with Article 7 (ie. student or self sufficient or employed or self-employed); iii) that family life was strengthened while resident in the Host State, and: iv) that abuse of the rights afforded by the Directive did not take place.

My advice is to enter Ireland with your spouse using their residence card from Spain. Once there, apply for an EU Fam Stamp 4 card. INIS will most likely ask you to provide evidence of your residency in Spain, that you worked, as well as evidence that you integrated, etc.

However, it is not open to the State to demand any evidence beyond that you exercised your Treaty Rights for more than 3 months, that you remained in a relationship, and that you didn't abuse the directive (e.g., had a sham marriage or something). For this, your wife's residency card will suffice as it was granted by the Spanish government in recognition of you exercising your rights for a period of more than 3 months and that they were satisfied that your relationship is genuine. Any proof requested beyond the four criteria above is a case of the State applying the 'proof of moving your centre of life' criteria demanded by the UK government which has been found in court not to be in accordance with the Treaties/Directive. So refuse to supply this information.

The INIS may try to make it difficult for you, to a degree, so you must be firm and inform yourself of your rights. If they cause any issues, contact SOLVIT and open a case. They will help you. In fact, even mentioning that you have been in touch with SOLVIT will have INIS take you more seriously and most likely grant you your request in accordance with your legal rights.

All the best and I hope it works out for you,
Karl

hombredeirlanda wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:33 am

Lee2521 wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:56 am

Hi

Your wife can get a Irish family visa (Join family visa) and is a long stay visa through INIS department which would allow for A stay of 6 months

As I've exercised my treaty rights in another EU state, I was under the impression that we can apply via the EEA route, rather than the Join Family visa which has further requirements (such as income).

The INIS have confirmed this for me in the last few days, however they haven't been able to answer my questions about having lived in multiple EU countries. More specifically, if I work in one state and move to another where I'm not working, can I use my time from the first country when applying.

Yes, you can use your time in the Netherlands as proof of you having exercised your rights. It is sufficient that you have exercised your rights at some time in the past, and that the period exceeded 3 months. In fact, as opposed to my previous advice, I would advise using your time in the Netherlands as proof as they are less likely to question it based on it being a period of 2 years and not just a few months. In either case you have an entitlement, but not everyone working in INIS knows this unfortunately.

And you are correct that the EEA route is easier, and faster, than the Join Family route. EU law supercedes Irish law in this case too.