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Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

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tugii20
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Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by tugii20 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:46 pm

As citizenship is generally by descent,Section 16; (2) For the purposes of this section a person is of Irish associations if:

(a) he or she is related by blood, affinity or adoption to, or is the civil partner of, a person who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen, or

(b) he or she was related by blood, affinity or adoption to, or was the civil partner of, a person who is deceased and who, at the time of his or her death, was an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen.
Applications for naturalisation are often received where the applicant seeks the Minister to exercise absolute discretion under Section 16 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended to waive the statutory conditions on the basis of Irish descent or Irish associations going back two, three or indeed more generations. An association going back two generations without any other link to the State is generally considered as not sufficient to warrant consideration or the waiving of the statutory residence conditions.



an application claiming an Irish association by ‘ascent’ (i.e. based on being the parent of Irish citizen children) or through Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient to warrant or justify recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions, in the absence of exceptional and compelling reasons.

An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by littlerr » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:37 pm

Where does this come from?

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:46 am

tugii20 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:46 pm

an application claiming an Irish association by ‘ascent’ (i.e. based on being the parent of Irish citizen children) or through Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient to warrant or justify recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions, in the absence of exceptional and compelling reasons.

An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal.
Hi Tugie, actaully the citizenship act did not say that.They put it recently in the web site, it wasn'tthere before.And for me I think in the website of INIS they are trying to predict the act towards blocking some certain applications, but unless they change the act itself, and they will. For me this explanation is not justified.There was a similar case in 2019, I don't know what happened later when an appeal of refusal based on same words, insufficient bonds, won by the high court against the minister.I am eager to know what happened to that case eventually.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:41 am

littlerr wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:37 pm
Where does this come from?
Now it is in INIS website, it was not there before, as most likely it doesn't happen, however in the last few months I think they faced with increasing applications through that way and this is why they are now aware of this route, I applied throughthis route three years ago and may be my case itself, and other few similar cases, were involved in inserting these explanations in the web site.Iam sure they were not there before and I revised the act again, and they are not there.So, in my case if based on these explanations if I got a refusal then I will be prepared for an appeal in the highcourt, which may take a long time added to the three years I have already waited for.The question is that if they changed the law "after" I applied, does it affect my application?

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by littlerr » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:52 am

Ok it’s good to have some clarifications. I have previously said this numerous times that the Irish Associations applications are simply a back door to allow people who have extraordinary contribution to the Irish societies (or those super rich and famous people :)).

It is never right or the intention for the legislation to ‘encourage’ ordinary people to have preferential statuses simply because they have a child born here.

Court cases are always expected whenever there is a refusal, but the onus is always on the applicant to provide substantial evidence to prove that they are entitled to the residence exemption.

The new minister is clearly tough on these measures, but having clear general guidance is always a good thing.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:34 am

littlerr wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:52 am
Ok it’s good to have some clarifications. I have previously said this numerous times that the Irish Associations applications are simply a back door to allow people who have extraordinary contribution to the Irish societies (or those super rich and famous people :)).

It is never right or the intention for the legislation to ‘encourage’ ordinary people to have preferential statuses simply because they have a child born here.

Court cases are always expected whenever there is a refusal, but the onus is always on the applicant to provide substantial evidence to prove that they are entitled to the residence exemption.

The new minister is clearly tough on these measures, but having clear general guidance is always a good thing.
I respect what you think, but I can say that we are talking about an act, a law, and the minister is a minister of justice, whether she is tough or not, she is dealing with a guide by a law, and laws are always above people.Same thing had arisen in a similar case two years ago and I did not follow the outcome of that girl, however they should put it as a law not an opinion and laws always a process that goes through certain steps.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by dubnew » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:48 am

Hi,

Very important judgement in 2019 on Irish Associations:

https://www.courts.ie/acc/alfresco/5258 ... 30.pdf/pdf

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by dubnew » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:13 pm

Teenage girl wins appeal over refusal of Irish Association.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishti ... 3fmode=amp

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by littlerr » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:52 pm

If you read the actual judgment, it says the court ordered the minister to reconsider because there was no clarification on what is considered strong bonds on Irish Association. This is exactly what the current minister has done on the website - to clarify what is and isn’t considered.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:57 pm

littlerr wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:52 pm
If you read the actual judgment, it says the court ordered the minister to reconsider because there was no clarification on what is considered strong bonds on Irish Association. This is exactly what the current minister has done on the website - to clarify what is and isn’t considered.
Yes you are right actually I meant that case but I did not know what happened thenafter.Actually the judge himself from the general view we understand of his judgement that the minister is wrong as the act 16 is very clear and well explained. I am not a lawyer or a judge but the statement does not contain any confusing phrases like what happened last year in the interpretation of 6 weeks.

The second point is very important to know that changing of laws, is not that as easy as changing words in a web site.Personally I think these statements were added to block that pathway but I think they did it in a wrong way trying to explain something that is very clear by the incorrect meaning.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by Shakey » Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:23 pm

alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:46 am
tugii20 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:46 pm

an application claiming an Irish association by ‘ascent’ (i.e. based on being the parent of Irish citizen children) or through Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient to warrant or justify recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions, in the absence of exceptional and compelling reasons.

An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal.
Hi Tugie, actaully the citizenship act did not say that.They put it recently in the web site, it wasn'tthere before.And for me I think in the website of INIS they are trying to predict the act towards blocking some certain applications, but unless they change the act itself, and they will. For me this explanation is not justified.There was a similar case in 2019, I don't know what happened later when an appeal of refusal based on same words, insufficient bonds, won by the high court against the minister.I am eager to know what happened to that case eventually.

To be fair this is a welcome explanation as it clears up how the department understand "Irish Associations". In theory a person could come to Ireland and within nine months apply for citizenship because they had a child with an Irish or British citizen. Not exactly what the law was envisaged for I am sure!

However you are correct in saying the Act isn't explicit and this is down to the government to modify the legislation. There is a similar situation with the famous "6 week rule". It appeared out of nowhere and has no legal standing.

Until somebody takes the government to court on these matters I guess they won't act and change the legislation. Writing something on a website probably helps prevent the court cases in the first place and prevent more people applying which ultimately is what they are looking for anyway.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:07 pm

Shakey wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:23 pm
alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:46 am
tugii20 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:46 pm


To be fair this is a welcome explanation as it clears up how the department understand "Irish Associations". In theory a person could come to Ireland and within nine months apply for citizenship because they had a child with an Irish or British citizen. Not exactly what the law was envisaged for I am sure!

However you are correct in saying the Act isn't explicit and this is down to the government to modify the legislation. There is a similar situation with the famous "6 week rule". It appeared out of nowhere and has no legal standing.

Until somebody takes the government to court on these matters I guess they won't act and change the legislation. Writing something on a website probably helps prevent the court cases in the first place and prevent more people applying which ultimately is what they are looking for anyway.
We can take it from two sides; I am not concerned about the explanation they put to clarify things, and they do not judge from information in the web site, I am concerned about putting statements in the web site that is against the citizenship laws.This is from one side, the other side is that practically it does not happen in 10 months as you mentioned, but at least three years, as if they came less than that their child will not be an Irish.Moreover, practically people come, work for some time prepare themselves, marry, seeking visas and then have their children at that time already the father of the new Irish born child will have stayed for five years and apply on his own.This appears the case in 99.9% of applications, rendering for applicants ignorance of this route, and few applications through this route.

Besides, from our forum there are many people who had their great grand fathers were born here and they had immigrated many years ago.In my opinion these problems happened because of the back log, that have accummulated applications through all routes. Some people may think that, naturalising 25 thousands people is a big number, forgetting that the department is the one who created this accummulation with approving far less applications than in the previous years and the rate of applications.Note that the whole number of naturalised people in the last 20 years may be 160 thousands, so to reach one million naturalised people this might happen in the year 2080, where as compared to a neighbour country they naturalise 25 thousands a year approximately.

However for the minority of applications, they used to put it for two years without a decision and when it complete five years, they approve it under the five years residency rather than the Irish association.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by Shakey » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:40 pm

alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:07 pm
Shakey wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:23 pm
alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:46 am
tugii20 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:46 pm


To be fair this is a welcome explanation as it clears up how the department understand "Irish Associations". In theory a person could come to Ireland and within nine months apply for citizenship because they had a child with an Irish or British citizen. Not exactly what the law was envisaged for I am sure!

However you are correct in saying the Act isn't explicit and this is down to the government to modify the legislation. There is a similar situation with the famous "6 week rule". It appeared out of nowhere and has no legal standing.

Until somebody takes the government to court on these matters I guess they won't act and change the legislation. Writing something on a website probably helps prevent the court cases in the first place and prevent more people applying which ultimately is what they are looking for anyway.
We can take it from two sides; I am not concerned about the explanation they put to clarify things, and they do not judge from information in the web site, I am concerned about putting statements in the web site that is against the citizenship laws.This is from one side, the other side is that practically it does not happen in 10 months as you mentioned, but at least three years, as if they came less than that their child will not be an Irish.Moreover, practically people come, work for some time prepare themselves, marry, seeking visas and then have their children at that time already the father of the new Irish born child will have stayed for five years and apply on his own.This appears the case in 99.9% of applications, rendering for applicants ignorance of this route, and few applications through this route.

Besides, from our forum there are many people who had their great grand fathers were born here and they had immigrated many years ago.In my opinion these problems happened because of the back log, that have accummulated applications through all routes. Some people may think that, naturalising 25 thousands people is a big number, forgetting that the department is the one who created this accummulation with approving far less applications than in the previous years and the rate of applications.Note that the whole number of naturalised people in the last 20 years may be 160 thousands, so to reach one million naturalised people this might happen in the year 2080, where as compared to a neighbour country they naturalise 25 thousands a year approximately.

However for the minority of applications, they used to put it for two years without a decision and when it complete five years, they approve it under the five years residency rather than the Irish association.
Practically no. Again a non Irish citizen having a child after nine months inside the country with an Irish or British citizen would mean they could argue they qualify. Any child born in Ireland to a British or Irish citizen is automatically an Irish citizen therefore the hypothetical person could indeed apply after nine months.

You are of course well within your rights to take the government to court to try to force their hand on getting this on the statute books.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by littlerr » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:31 pm

alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:07 pm
We can take it from two sides; I am not concerned about the explanation they put to clarify things, and they do not judge from information in the web site, I am concerned about putting statements in the web site that is against the citizenship laws.
Can you clarify which citizenship law is being broken?

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act is explicitly and abundantly clear that all applicants have to meet the 3 or 5 years residence requirement, and the minister has the absolute discretion to waive some or all of the requirements if the application is based on Irish Associations. Each minister may apply their own rules. Unless you can prove that this is unconstitutional, there is really very little you can argue there.

Reading the court case in detail, the judge required the minister to reconsider in the aforementioned case, because the minister had not made this information publicly available. Therefore, the minister is now doing exactly that - clarifying the general conditions on their official website. So what is being broken?

Finally, just to remember that the minister still has the absolute discretion to all citizenship applications. We could have a minister who decides to waive all residence permissions for all Irish Associations applications, and we could also have a minister who decides not to waive anything at all unless you have made an extraordinary contribution. Both of these extreme scenarios are well within the rights of the minister, as long as the information is publicly available, as required by the judge.

Of course, as Shakey said, you have every right to challenge the minister's decision. Until that is being challenged in the court with a valid reason, what the website said there would stand as is.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by dubnew » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:38 pm

alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:57 pm
littlerr wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:52 pm
If you read the actual judgment, it says the court ordered the minister to reconsider because there was no clarification on what is considered strong bonds on Irish Association. This is exactly what the current minister has done on the website - to clarify what is and isn’t considered.
Yes you are right actually I meant that case but I did not know what happened thenafter.Actually the judge himself from the general view we understand of his judgement that the minister is wrong as the act 16 is very clear and well explained. I am not a lawyer or a judge but the statement does not contain any confusing phrases like what happened last year in the interpretation of 6 weeks.

The second point is very important to know that changing of laws, is not that as easy as changing words in a web site.Personally I think these statements were added to block that pathway but I think they did it in a wrong way trying to explain something that is very clear by the incorrect meaning.
@alhakeem

"There was Minister's failure to give adequate reasons to refuse her application"

My opinion is, as long as you are related by blood and strong roots with the country you can argue in the court. Department will never listen to you. This may be the harsh reality. :(

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by Shakey » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:41 am

littlerr wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:31 pm
alhakeem wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:07 pm
We can take it from two sides; I am not concerned about the explanation they put to clarify things, and they do not judge from information in the web site, I am concerned about putting statements in the web site that is against the citizenship laws.
The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act is explicitly and abundantly clear that all applicants have to meet the 3 or 5 years residence requirement, and the minister has the absolute discretion to waive some or all of the requirements if the application is based on Irish Associations. Each minister may apply their own rules. Unless you can prove that this is unconstitutional, there is really very little you can argue there.
Does it? I am happy to be proved wrong but I have never seen this in the Act. I believe it is just on the application form with as much legal standing as the website clarification.

Of course as you point out everything is at the ministers discretion meaning in reality everything is a grey area anyway until someone challenges the government in court. Sometimes however it suits governments to keep laws ambiguous :)

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by ashconnor » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:23 am

Just a quick question.

Since Irish Association applications are now taking 30 months to process and the Minister only waives 2 years of residence for those of us of Irish Descent, does that mean that applying for Irish Citizenship based on Association is basically useless now?

We might as well wait the 5 years and apply via naturalisation?

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by handoubleu » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:54 am

I think that will be an interesting point and potentially a future case, although I am not certain on what grounds. Essentially, it would be put before the court whether the Minister/the Office is attempting to circumvent or create new law by creating a practice not to review applications until year 3, knowing full well the process would put them at the 5 year mark. Yet, the Minister has been granted full discretion and, given this, basically has unlimited freedom on how they want to approach applications creating and using whatever guidelines they please, unless of course new legislation is passed or courts rule otherwise. As such, I wonder on what grounds an application can be made to limit discretion on that matter. Regardless, as @shakey once pointed out, to be granted citizenship through descent/associations is stronger than through naturalisation since it cannot be stripped away/rescinded. Overall, it might be worth the wait to gain naturalisation through associations for the simple reason you would not risk losing it in the future, despite the fact it may take longer to obtain.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by tugii20 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:10 pm

littlerr wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:37 pm
Where does this come from?
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/citizen ... ociations/

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by ashconnor » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:10 am

handoubleu wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:54 am
Regardless, as @shakey once pointed out, to be granted citizenship through descent/associations is stronger than through naturalisation since it cannot be stripped away/rescinded. Overall, it might be worth the wait to gain naturalisation through associations for the simple reason you would not risk losing it in the future, despite the fact it may take longer to obtain.
That I didn't know. Worth waiting for IMO.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by Shakey » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:34 am

ashconnor wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:10 am
handoubleu wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:54 am
Regardless, as @shakey once pointed out, to be granted citizenship through descent/associations is stronger than through naturalisation since it cannot be stripped away/rescinded. Overall, it might be worth the wait to gain naturalisation through associations for the simple reason you would not risk losing it in the future, despite the fact it may take longer to obtain.
That I didn't know. Worth waiting for IMO.
Also don't forget that 30 months includes all of the applications applying with Irish children. Whilst I don't think anybody knows the exact figures, anecdotally off this site I would say the majority of applications would be of that nature. If the department doesn't consider these applications to be "valid" this of course means the average processing time will go up.

I really doubt an application with someone with what the department consider genuine Irish associations would actually take 30 months especially if the applicant has applied after three years of residency.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by ashconnor » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:16 pm

Shakey wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:34 am
Also don't forget that 30 months includes all of the applications applying with Irish children. Whilst I don't think anybody knows the exact figures, anecdotally off this site I would say the majority of applications would be of that nature. If the department doesn't consider these applications to be "valid" this of course means the average processing time will go up.

I really doubt an application with someone with what the department consider genuine Irish associations would actually take 30 months especially if the applicant has applied after three years of residency.
Right. With a copy of my father's FBR certificate and Irish passport. What's there to really investigate?

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:30 pm

[/quote]
Right. With a copy of my father's FBR certificate and Irish passport. What's there to really investigate?
[/quote] Do you mean your father was born outside of State and he was registered in the foreign birth registery, or you mean that he is Irish and registered your birth in the FBR registry, because in the first assumption he is entitled for the Irish citizenship and , if I am not wrong, you follows the same rule you are an Irish by entitlement not by naturalisation in the second case.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by ashconnor » Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:45 pm

alhakeem wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:30 pm
Do you mean your father was born outside of State and he was registered in the foreign birth registery, or you mean that he is Irish and registered your birth in the FBR registry, because in the first assumption he is entitled for the Irish citizenship and , if I am not wrong, you follows the same rule you are an Irish by entitlement not by naturalisation in the second case.
He registered on the FBR after my birth. My father didn't know the intricacies of Irish nationality law in the 80s unfortunately.

Still, if it shaves 2 years off my qualifying for Irish citizenship myself, there is some benefit.

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Re: Irish citizen siblings is not considered as sufficient based on being the parent of Irish citizen children

Post by alhakeem » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:42 am

[/quote]

He registered on the FBR after my birth. My father didn't know the intricacies of Irish nationality law in the 80s unfortunately.

Still, if it shaves 2 years off my qualifying for Irish citizenship myself, there is some benefit.
[/quote] Excusme, but I am still don't understand you, how did your father get his nationality, does he register his own birth in the FBR or he registered your birth in the FBR, so the question is that how did your father gained his nationality and the second question is did he register his own birth in case he was born outside of the State , BEFORE you were born or not? Depending on the answers the process is very different to gain citizenship by entitlement or naturalisation.

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