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Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

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Basenji
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Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Basenji » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:34 am

Good Evening Everyone!

I'm new to this forum, I know this topic has been discussed already a few months ago but unfortunately, the topic was closed and I couldn't join it. I have a question but I could also share my personal experience on this subject:

I'm half American/half Swiss of Irish descent (the Irish ancestry comes from my American side).

I hold a Swiss passport that allows me to live and work anywhere in the EU (Switzerland has bilateral agreements with all EU states) and I have moved here to Ireland at the beginning of the year 2019, so it's going to be 2 years in a couple of months that I'm a full-time resident.

My great-grandmother was born in Ontario but back in 1865 Canadian citizenship did not exist. In fact, she was considered a British-Irish born in an overseas province. Both her parents were born in County Wexford, Ireland. Back in 2015, I hired a genealogist based in Ireland to help me apply for citizenship by ancestry and he helped me locate all necessary documents (birth certificates, etc.) to apply through ancestry. Unfortunately, my request was refused because I was one generation off (not the grandparent). But, they stated that if I decided to relocate at some point they could wave 2 or more years out of the 5 requested.

So, before the lockdown, I had approached a couple of solicitors here and they both told me that it could be possible, based on my situation, to apply based on ancestry/association (but of course, we never met to discuss further since the lockdown slowed down everything).

Now, if someone would know what "of Irish Associations" mean EXACTLY I would be happy to read your interpretation (or is it only a vague concept that gives the minister all powers)...

Btw, if I can help someone here, I'd be happy to. I'm also a part-time genealogist.

Cheers everyone!

nmcilveen2016
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by nmcilveen2016 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:55 am

Basenji wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:34 am
Good Evening Everyone!

I'm new to this forum, I know this topic has been discussed already a few months ago but unfortunately, the topic was closed and I couldn't join it. I have a question but I could also share my personal experience on this subject:

I'm half American/half Swiss of Irish descent (the Irish ancestry comes from my American side).

I hold a Swiss passport that allows me to live and work anywhere in the EU (Switzerland has bilateral agreements with all EU states) and I have moved here to Ireland at the beginning of the year 2019, so it's going to be 2 years in a couple of months that I'm a full-time resident.

My great-grandmother was born in Ontario but back in 1865 Canadian citizenship did not exist. In fact, she was considered a British-Irish born in an overseas province. Both her parents were born in County Wexford, Ireland. Back in 2015, I hired a genealogist based in Ireland to help me apply for citizenship by ancestry and he helped me locate all necessary documents (birth certificates, etc.) to apply through ancestry. Unfortunately, my request was refused because I was one generation off (not the grandparent). But, they stated that if I decided to relocate at some point they could wave 2 or more years out of the 5 requested.

So, before the lockdown, I had approached a couple of solicitors here and they both told me that it could be possible, based on my situation, to apply based on ancestry/association (but of course, we never met to discuss further since the lockdown slowed down everything).

Now, if someone would know what "of Irish Associations" mean EXACTLY I would be happy to read your interpretation (or is it only a vague concept that gives the minister all powers)...

Btw, if I can help someone here, I'd be happy to. I'm also a part-time genealogist.

Cheers everyone!
Can I first ask why you would even want or need to hold irish citizenship when you already hold Swiss citizenship, there is virtually no difference whatsoever, both allow for freedom of movement within EU member states. That would be like me as an irish citizen going to live in Switzerland and applying for citizenship to get a document that gives me the same rights I already have, entirety pointless not to mention a waste of time, energy and money.

Shakey
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Shakey » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:42 pm

Basenji wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:34 am
Good Evening Everyone!

I'm new to this forum, I know this topic has been discussed already a few months ago but unfortunately, the topic was closed and I couldn't join it. I have a question but I could also share my personal experience on this subject:

I'm half American/half Swiss of Irish descent (the Irish ancestry comes from my American side).

I hold a Swiss passport that allows me to live and work anywhere in the EU (Switzerland has bilateral agreements with all EU states) and I have moved here to Ireland at the beginning of the year 2019, so it's going to be 2 years in a couple of months that I'm a full-time resident.

My great-grandmother was born in Ontario but back in 1865 Canadian citizenship did not exist. In fact, she was considered a British-Irish born in an overseas province. Both her parents were born in County Wexford, Ireland. Back in 2015, I hired a genealogist based in Ireland to help me apply for citizenship by ancestry and he helped me locate all necessary documents (birth certificates, etc.) to apply through ancestry. Unfortunately, my request was refused because I was one generation off (not the grandparent). But, they stated that if I decided to relocate at some point they could wave 2 or more years out of the 5 requested.

So, before the lockdown, I had approached a couple of solicitors here and they both told me that it could be possible, based on my situation, to apply based on ancestry/association (but of course, we never met to discuss further since the lockdown slowed down everything).

Now, if someone would know what "of Irish Associations" mean EXACTLY I would be happy to read your interpretation (or is it only a vague concept that gives the minister all powers)...

Btw, if I can help someone here, I'd be happy to. I'm also a part-time genealogist.

Cheers everyone!
This should explain everything:

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/citizen ... ociations/

In short you are eligible to apply under Irish Associations.

Shakey
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Shakey » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:57 pm

nmcilveen2016 wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:55 am
Basenji wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:34 am
Good Evening Everyone!

I'm new to this forum, I know this topic has been discussed already a few months ago but unfortunately, the topic was closed and I couldn't join it. I have a question but I could also share my personal experience on this subject:

I'm half American/half Swiss of Irish descent (the Irish ancestry comes from my American side).

I hold a Swiss passport that allows me to live and work anywhere in the EU (Switzerland has bilateral agreements with all EU states) and I have moved here to Ireland at the beginning of the year 2019, so it's going to be 2 years in a couple of months that I'm a full-time resident.

My great-grandmother was born in Ontario but back in 1865 Canadian citizenship did not exist. In fact, she was considered a British-Irish born in an overseas province. Both her parents were born in County Wexford, Ireland. Back in 2015, I hired a genealogist based in Ireland to help me apply for citizenship by ancestry and he helped me locate all necessary documents (birth certificates, etc.) to apply through ancestry. Unfortunately, my request was refused because I was one generation off (not the grandparent). But, they stated that if I decided to relocate at some point they could wave 2 or more years out of the 5 requested.

So, before the lockdown, I had approached a couple of solicitors here and they both told me that it could be possible, based on my situation, to apply based on ancestry/association (but of course, we never met to discuss further since the lockdown slowed down everything).

Now, if someone would know what "of Irish Associations" mean EXACTLY I would be happy to read your interpretation (or is it only a vague concept that gives the minister all powers)...

Btw, if I can help someone here, I'd be happy to. I'm also a part-time genealogist.

Cheers everyone!
Can I first ask why you would even want or need to hold irish citizenship when you already hold Swiss citizenship, there is virtually no difference whatsoever, both allow for freedom of movement within EU member states. That would be like me as an irish citizen going to live in Switzerland and applying for citizenship to get a document that gives me the same rights I already have, entirety pointless not to mention a waste of time, energy and money.
Not true. The Irish passport gives unfettered access to the United Kingdom for work,study and even voting rights. A Swiss passport does not.

The moment EU citizens lost freedom of movement to the UK the Irish passport became easily the most powerful for mobility in the world.

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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Zerubbabel » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:03 pm

Can I first ask why you would even want or need to hold irish citizenship when you already hold Swiss citizenship, there is virtually no difference whatsoever, both allow for freedom of movement within EU member states. That would be like me as an irish citizen going to live in Switzerland and applying for citizenship to get a document that gives me the same rights I already have, entirety pointless not to mention a waste of time, energy and money.
Not too long ago, your statement was also valid for a British passport. It's no longer the case... World is changing quick. Get as many passport as you legally can.

cleire8
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by cleire8 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:29 am

Shakey wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:42 pm


This should explain everything:

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/citizen ... ociations/

In short you are eligible to apply under Irish Associations.
That is incorrect, its even in your link.

"An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal."

Same as my circumstance I and was not eligible as neither my grandparent or parent were registered as a foreign birth. So its a minimum 5 years for Irish Citizenship reckonable residency like the rest of us.

Shakey
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Shakey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:19 pm

cleire8 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:29 am
Shakey wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:42 pm


This should explain everything:

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/citizen ... ociations/

In short you are eligible to apply under Irish Associations.
That is incorrect, its even in your link.

"An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal."

Same as my circumstance I and was not eligible as neither my grandparent or parent were registered as a foreign birth. So its a minimum 5 years for Irish Citizenship reckonable residency like the rest of us.
The OP lives in Ireland and has residence. This is saying anyone who doesn’t have residence don’t bother applying.

cleire8
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by cleire8 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:49 pm

"It's going to be 2 years in a few months time since I became a full time resident in Ireland"

The OP was asking whether his great grandparent gave them any associated entitlement to Irish Citizenship, of which it does not.

So I was suggesting that they, just like myself who found themselves in that situation, will be required to have the full 5 years of reckonable Irish residency before applying for citizenship.

I'm not sure which part of that you didn't interpret.

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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Shakey » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:17 am

cleire8 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:49 pm
"It's going to be 2 years in a few months time since I became a full time resident in Ireland"

The OP was asking whether his great grandparent gave them any associated entitlement to Irish Citizenship, of which it does not.

So I was suggesting that they, just like myself who found themselves in that situation, will be required to have the full 5 years of reckonable Irish residency before applying for citizenship.

I'm not sure which part of that you didn't interpret.
The OP has residency and has genuine Irish associations therefore they are eligible to apply for citizenship by naturalisation via Irish associations. Not sure where the confusion is. Its pretty clear unless you are thinking about FBR then of course they are not eligible.

Its entirely up to the minister to decide whether to waive some of the normal residency requirement. This is stated in the citizenship act and on the application form.

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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by cleire8 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:18 am

I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive on this. I am sharing my opinions because they mirror what the OP was asking. When I did research via official channels (pre-covid), it was told to me that it would be very very unlikely to get citizenship on great-grandparent association, only with exceptional circumstances which were extremely niche. This is also confirmed in the official link you submitted.

I'm giving the OP solid advice. If in doubt, wait your 5 years residency (or other citizenship requirements) and then apply based on your own merit. There would very little point in going to the time, expense and effort to submit an application now, only to lose your €200 deposit, put additional stress on an already stretched Citizenship department to be told its not valid at this time.

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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Shakey » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:50 pm

cleire8 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:18 am
I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive on this. I am sharing my opinions because they mirror what the OP was asking. When I did research via official channels (pre-covid), it was told to me that it would be very very unlikely to get citizenship on great-grandparent association, only with exceptional circumstances which were extremely niche. This is also confirmed in the official link you submitted.

I'm giving the OP solid advice. If in doubt, wait your 5 years residency (or other citizenship requirements) and then apply based on your own merit. There would very little point in going to the time, expense and effort to submit an application now, only to lose your €200 deposit, put additional stress on an already stretched Citizenship department to be told its not valid at this time.
I’m not being defensive just dealing in facts. The OP is eligible, you said he isn’t which as you just said was your opinion. Facts and opinion are not the same. It is up to the OP whether he applies or not, and what are they going to lose? 175 euro? Well worth it in my opinion but you clearly have a different opinion. That is fine but the law is the law and opinions are opinions.

For full disclosure I have applied for citizenship through Irish Associations when i had four years of residency. My mother is an irish citizen through FBR. My great grandmother was Irish.

Whilst I haven’t been approved yet I have had my second letter and certainly not been rejected, if they were going to reject me that would have happened by now. Even if i have to wait longer for citizenship by this route I am fine with that because it is a stronger form of citizenship than normal naturalisation.

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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by cleire8 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:28 pm

Read the OP again.

His great-grandmother was born in Ontario, and their parents were born in Wexford. That's 5 generations back, with no residency or FBR.

Now as per your link - https://www.irishimmigration.ie/citizen ... ociations/

"An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal."

So that rules that one out then.

"It is up to the OP whether he applies or not, and what are they going to lose? 175 euro? Well worth it in my opinion but you clearly have a different opinion"

We have a system which is backlogged enough as it is with delays going back years for some people, but hey sure, throw another application on there, spend your money and see what happens. Or maybe better advice would be to suggest is that the OP investigates as to their own background via official outlets of INIS, citizens advice bureau, specialists solicitors or other formal organizations. Form a rounded judgment from professionals firstly before going to the great time and expense of an application.

None of us here are experts - but with the information which has been provided by the OP, the official docs on the website AND my own research on great-grandparent association through the official outlets, it will very unlikely to qualify them for citizenship on that basis alone.

Shakey
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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by Shakey » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:18 pm

cleire8 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:28 pm
Read the OP again.

His great-grandmother was born in Ontario, and their parents were born in Wexford. That's 5 generations back, with no residency or FBR.

Now as per your link - https://www.irishimmigration.ie/citizen ... ociations/

"An Irish association through a great-grandparent, (or a grandparent where that grandparent obtained citizenship through naturalisation) and where there is no, or negligible, reckonable residency would generally be deemed insufficient to warrant recommending the Minister exercise absolute discretion to waive the statutory conditions under Section 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and would result in a refusal."

So that rules that one out then.

"It is up to the OP whether he applies or not, and what are they going to lose? 175 euro? Well worth it in my opinion but you clearly have a different opinion"

We have a system which is backlogged enough as it is with delays going back years for some people, but hey sure, throw another application on there, spend your money and see what happens. Or maybe better advice would be to suggest is that the OP investigates as to their own background via official outlets of INIS, citizens advice bureau, specialists solicitors or other formal organizations. Form a rounded judgment from professionals firstly before going to the great time and expense of an application.

None of us here are experts - but with the information which has been provided by the OP, the official docs on the website AND my own research on great-grandparent association through the official outlets, it will very unlikely to qualify them for citizenship on that basis alone.
I really am curious why do you keep quoting what it says on the website where it clearly states someone with no or negligible residence will be rejected? They are clearly referring to someone who has just come off the plane or living in a foreign country entirely. The OP has a reasonable amount of residence so this sentence is void for their circumstances.

Indeed, whilst the application form states three years residence there is no legal standing for this just like the website has no legal standing. It might be the departments current thinking on the matter but the 1956 Citizenship Act is the law not what is written on a website or an application form. Any applicant who is rejected under those terms would be well within their rights to take the department to court because the department can only apply the law to their decisions not opinions. The law is the law. Until the 1956 Citizenship Act is amended to reflect their thinking as per the website and application form the department are wide open to be challenged on these statements.

To sum up:

The OP is eligible to apply under Irish Associations. In your opinion they will be rejected outright. In my opinion they will not. In your opinion spending 175 euro is a waste of money and time. In my opinion it is not because even if they were rejected they could apply again later.

Ultimately, it's entirely up to them whether they apply or not through Irish Associations.

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Re: Irish Citizenship based on ancestry/associations

Post by cleire8 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:23 am

This conversation has gone from tiresome to bordering on farcical. The official website has no legal standing? So all of that advice should be taken with a pinch of salt, because Shakey here knows more about Citizenship law that the INIS. Ok so. :lol:

For the third time, the OP should seek advice from the official channels and professional organizations who can tell them if they will be eligible and whether or not it will be worth applying with their current associations which date back 5 generations before the last time they were in Ireland. I will be fascinating to know the outcome.

Your advice just seems to be "apply anyway", yet I find that totally disgraceful to say that when people have been waiting for applications to be processed from as far back as 2017 majority of which with fulfilling 100% of the citizenship criteria. You are happy to have INIS spend its limited resources dealing with applications which can't be proven or take an incredibly long time to attempt to verify without the applicant doing their own research first.

Who applies for citizenship in a country without research, treating it like some form of bank loan application? It's meant to be an honor and privilege to take up a citizenship in a country but you attempt to demonstrate such a laissez faire attitude towards it, its quite insulting to others.

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