Justice Minister's first interview - Extracts on Immigration

limey wrote:Walrus: Whilst many in Northern Ireland would not appreciate the fact they are entitled to both Irish and British citizenship.

There is no denying that it can be extremely useful when it comes to immigration matters as many on this forum have already discovered!

It is worth pointing out that not all British citizens in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship.

JAJ wrote:

limey wrote:Walrus: Whilst many in Northern Ireland would not appreciate the fact they are entitled to both Irish and British citizenship.

There is no denying that it can be extremely useful when it comes to immigration matters as many on this forum have already discovered!

It is worth pointing out that not all British citizens in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship.

yes, the good friday agreement was only intenended for people of northern ireland (citizens) who have a family connection, a cutural identity with the south. unless you have an understandable idea or knowledge of this island it will be difficult for one to appreciate, hence my absolute discuse when an outside justs simply picks out a bit a legislation and harrows on about this and that with out understanding the true meaning of the text in the social aspect of the country. the original text of bunreacht na heireann was overtly republican, which angered the unionist community in northern ireland, as the constitution claimed legal ownership of the whole island of ireland, the ext also stated that everyone born in ireland was irish. the consitution then, did not recognise the legal entity of northern ireland. whilst in relatity people in this island actually did, the laws did not until good friday. look at the tv and watch sinn fein's martin mcguinness, count how many times he will say "Northern Ireland" easily. i bet you he wont say those precise words.

good friday was never intended for other british citizens eg a person from london or cornwall.it also was done long before immigration issues came to the fore. it was a political agreement between people of the nationalist and unionist political background and not nationals of another countries outide rep ireland and northern ireland. the only british citizen who would be entitled to irsh citizenship is a unionist from northern ireland.

prior to the people of this country voting by referendum to disallow a person, born to non national parents,the automatic right to such citizenship. the chen case highlighted the need to change as it allowed citizens born on the "island" of ireland entitlement to irish citizenship. the reason it does not apply to others can be seen in the facts of the chen case. mrs chen lived in wales. the uk home office were preparing documents for her deportation. she became pregnant. she then was legally advised to go to belfast or the south. she goes to belfast. has baby. child claims irish nationality despite clearly not having true connections with this state, as orignally envisaged in 1937. with the right to irish nationality, she is an eu citizen. as an eu citizen she was enitled to family reunification. as an eu citizen she was entitled either to stay in northern ireland or go back to mainland uk. the eu council of state go mental about the irish policy, which made the irish to consider changing its policy. it was obvious ireland was a back door to the eu, hence the possibility of abuse to the immigration policies of eu, hence the change in irish law. dual nationality is not intended to be extremely useful when it comes to immigration matters,. unless you or your family actually have ancestoral connections with this island

(this i swear is not my opinion, i voted no to the referndum, as i feel if you are born in ireland you are entitled to citizenship despite the nationality of parents, but i am afraid that is the law as it stands)

walrusgumble wrote: the only british citizen who would be entitled to irsh citizenship is a unionist from northern ireland.

That's incorrect.

kevarms wrote:

walrusgumble wrote: the only british citizen who would be entitled to irsh citizenship is a unionist from northern ireland.

That's incorrect.

did you read all of the last posts entirely? if not i see where you see that its incorrect,

JAJ wrote:
limey wrote: It is worth pointing out that not all British citizens in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship.

we were dicussing the implications of the good friday agreement at the time of it been made. which in essence was a political agreement between the irish and british governments in relation to the main groups in northern ireland, the nationalist and unionist. a northerner born in northern ireland(whom as JAJ enjoys reminding us is also a british citizen) are the only ones under the agreement entitled to irish citizenship. meaning even an unionist can take up the citizenship. the alternative is to do so by decent. what i should have said was the only "other brit" in northern ireland.....

the reason why not all brits in northern ireland (assuming that they born there) are not entitled to irish citizenship is because of sections 6, 6a and 6b of inc act 1956-2004. (possibility that the person born in ni is of parents who are from the 6 counties, the south, or who are legally leave there

for clarity because i think there is some misunderstanding here, possibly on my part, the following is an example of how brits can get irish citizenship

by birth in the island of ireland
by decent
naturalisation
getting married and applying for such citizenship after 3 years
grant of citizenship as a token of honour eg jack charlton

walrusgumble wrote:[
the reason why not all brits in northern ireland (assuming that they born there) are not entitled to irish citizenship is because of sections 6, 6a and 6b of inc act 1956-2004. (possibility that the person born in ni is of parents who are from the 6 counties, the south, or who are legally leave there

Most British citizens born in Northern Ireland are eligible for Irish citizenship. The main exclusions relate to British citizens who have come from other parts of the United Kingdom, and most of those who have acquired British citizenship by Home Office naturalisation or registration (ie, newcomers to the United Kingdom).

for clarity because i think there is some misunderstanding here, possibly on my part, the following is an example of how brits can get irish citizenship

by birth in the island of ireland
by decent
naturalisation
getting married and applying for such citizenship after 3 years
grant of citizenship as a token of honour eg jack charlton

The "marriage" route to Irish citizenship was closed to new applicants on 30 November 2005.

Foreign workers must be treated properly - McLoone Jul 03, 9:19 am
The Taoiseach will be expected to reaffirm the government's commitment to improving the lot of foreign workers when he addresses the biennial delegate conference of the ICTU in Bundoran tomorrow.

President of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, Peter McLoone, said the situation whereby groups of Romanians are encamped by the sides of motorways in Dublin is totally unacceptable.

He was speaking at the opening of ICTU's three day biennial conference, attended by more than 600 delegates which gets underway in the Great Northern Hotel this morning.

Mr McLoone said an increase of 300,000 people will be needed in the workforce in the next 13 years meaning that migrant workers will be required and it's vital they be offered equal pay and conditions to Irish employees.

http://www.oceanfm.ie/onair/donegalnews ... =000001554

On one of the small radios but profile can be raised if anyone in that area living draws their attention to this MESS

What the hell is this about ?

Also appears that the GOV wants to opt out from the EU charter of fundamental rights

TRADE unions warned yesterday they will campaign for a 'no' vote in the referendum on the new EU treaty if any attempt is made by the Government to opt out of endorsing the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Outgoing Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) president Peter McLoone said he will be seeking a definitive clarification on the Government's position from Taoiseach Bertie Ahern when he addresses the Congress in Bundoran, Co Donegal this morning.

Opening the week-long event yesterday, which is being attended by up to 600 delegates, Mr McLoone said that any shift in the Taoiseach's position as outlined to the Congress in 2005, would represent a significant shift and would "jar incongruously with everything we have tried to achieve on work-place rights in Towards 2016".

Values

"The Charter represents a statement of basic values to inform the development of the EU-basic values like respect for human rights and human dignity, democracy, equality and workers' rights," he said.

More at the following link
http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 55456.html

Shocking Really ! to me

Ireland faces EU action over race law

Says it all really


Speaking in Dublin to mark the publication of the annual report, ICCL director Mark Kelly noted that this year is European Year of Equal Opportunities for All.

He said action by the Government to "fully implement this important EU Directive is already four years overdue".

"The EU's equality laws play a vital part in combating discrimination in jobs, schools, shops, housing and healthcare and it is high time that the Government acted to ensure that the Race Equality Directive is fully effective in practice. The ICCL will continue to campaign to ensure that this is the case."

Mors as follows
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaki ... king66.htm

Also in Irish times today

Some migrants earn 31% less
Martin Wall Industry Correspondent
Migrant workers from non-Englishcountries are in some cases being paid 31 per cent less than Irish workers for doing the same job, according to new research commissioned by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu).

Addressing its biennial delegate conference in Bundoran yesterday, congress assistant general secretary Sally-Anne Kinahan said that in addition to a gender pay gap, a migrant worker pay gap was also emerging.

The research had found that, controlling for education and work experience, immigrants earned 18 per cent less than native workers, Ms Kinahan said. It had shown that immigrants from non-English-speaking countries were at a 31 per cent wage disadvantage compared to native workers.

It is understood that the research papers, which will be published later in the year, concluded that when all job and personal characteristics were taken into account, women still received 12 per cent lower hourly pay than men.

The research found that processes giving rise to unequal pay went back to educational choices that were made at an early stage in children’s education.

It also said that pay inequality was influenced by the high level of occupational segregation in the Irish labour force and by the lack of appropriate policies to reconcile work and family life.

It is understood the research will call for reforms in a number of areas including a new requirement for employers with more than 10 full-time staff to publish a periodic equality pay audit.

It recommends that where significant disparity is found between groups covered by equality grounds, the employer would be obliged to draw up an equal pay action plan in negotiation with the trade unions.

Ms Kinahan said the findings showed that the Government should move to improve the position of agency workers.

Ictu has argued that Britain, Hungary and Ireland are the only countries in the EU that allowed agency workers to be paid less and treated worse than regular staff.

Ms Kinahan called for greater investment in the State’s equality infrastructure such as the Equality Authority and the Equality Tribunal.

In one case, a person had to wait 5½ years for a hearing, she said. A four-year wait for a tribunal hearing now appeared to be regular and this was particularly unfair to people who had work permits for a limited period.

The chief executive of the Equality Authority, Niall Crowley, told the conference that significant inequalities still persisted “when we look across the nine grounds covered by equality legislationâ€

walrusgumble wrote:

joesoap101 wrote:Bertie Ahern was trying to speak Irish in the Dail the other day and made a complete mess of it, had to pause for ages and read his script

Bertie can barely speak english never mind irish.

Didn’t you watch the series of the TG4 reporter travelling through Ireland trying to speak only Irish? Well he was treated with hostility in most places, he was in the depths of the gaeltacht and people didn’t understand him....

Like any other country with their national language, each area in ireland have their own different dialect, be it connamara/connacht irish, ulster irish and munster irish

Finally, Mary McAleese, the president of Ireland, is actually a British Citizen (obviously in addition to being an Irish citizen).

british citizen? you ignorant f*(k. SHe is an irish citizen (she never took up the british passport, entitled from birth, dont go whinging cause ye dont have it. maybe ye should understand this countries history before forking out a bit of money and waiting 5 years before getting yours. i would love if you had the balls to say that in a nationalist area in northern ireland. you wanna check out was articles 2 and 3 of the constitution and section 6 of inc act 1956-2004 before ya come out with that guff.so no she is not legally or politically a british citizen or nor was she ever.

OMG you totally crack me up lol. The above comment just shows how ignorant you are of the facts- you don't 'take up' a British passport... I'm not even going to explain this. It’s so annoying when Finglas types like you get on their high horse going off on a tangent blinded by nationalism.

Furthermore, I am entitled to Irish citizenship by way of right, not privilege so I did not have to wait at all.

Finally, the Irish constitution is an old vestige of the past that needs to be reviewed because it is stuck in the dark ages. And this time round the catholic church should NOT be asked for their opinion.

joesoap101 wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:

joesoap101 wrote:Bertie Ahern was trying to speak Irish in the Dail the other day and made a complete mess of it, had to pause for ages and read his script

Bertie can barely speak english never mind irish.

Didn’t you watch the series of the TG4 reporter travelling through Ireland trying to speak only Irish? Well he was treated with hostility in most places, he was in the depths of the gaeltacht and people didn’t understand him....

Like any other country with their national language, each area in ireland have their own different dialect, be it connamara/connacht irish, ulster irish and munster irish



Finally, Mary McAleese, the president of Ireland, is actually a British Citizen (obviously in addition to being an Irish citizen).

british citizen? you ignorant f*(k. SHe is an irish citizen (she never took up the british passport, entitled from birth, dont go whinging cause ye dont have it. maybe ye should understand this countries history before forking out a bit of money and waiting 5 years before getting yours. i would love if you had the balls to say that in a nationalist area in northern ireland. you wanna check out was articles 2 and 3 of the constitution and section 6 of inc act 1956-2004 before ya come out with that guff.so no she is not legally or politically a british citizen or nor was she ever.

OMG you totally crack me up lol. The above comment just shows how ignorant you are of the facts- you don't 'take up' a British passport... I'm not even going to explain this. It’s so annoying when Finglas types like you get on their high horse going off on a tangent blinded by nationalism.

Furthermore, I am entitled to Irish citizenship by way of right, not privilege so I did not have to wait at all.

Finally, the Irish constitution is an old vestige of the past that needs to be reviewed because it is stuck in the dark ages. And this time round the catholic church should NOT be asked for their opinion.

there is a lot more to claim a nationality by a mere holding of a passport. if you look closer i never stated that the only way one is entitled to be a citizen is actually exercising their right to "take up" a passport. my comments were show the attitude is different in the north (I should know i lived in derry city for 7 years),for a nationalist, the actual exercise of taking up an irish passport is, not only to go on holidays (yes british passport if they want) but as a sign that they do not wish to be seen as a british citizen and wish to be seen as part of ireland exlcusively. by the way i am not a doctrine republican or a scummer from finglas. it is insultive when brits dont get there facts sorted out and instead are lazy in branding everyone born on northern ireland as british when in some circles they dont wish to be (in a peaceful manner)

as for the consitution, yes it needs changing, but the church no longer has any power since 1979. the consitution in 1937 represented the state of the nation, who were dominantly catholic as i am sure you have noted. this cant be true today nor can it be true that the irish are as religious. but articles 40-44 should stay,(change article 41 and the clause on women's role in society) in practice many of the religious themes are ignored by the courts. other than these issues, what else needs changing ?

walrusgumble wrote: ... for a nationalist, the actual exercise of taking up an irish passport is, not only to go on holidays (yes british passport if they want) but as a sign that they do not wish to be seen as a british citizen and wish to be seen as part of ireland exlcusively.

That is their right, of course. Moreover, if such a person feels strongly enough about it, he or she is perfectly entitled and able to renounce British citizenship formally (and subsequently to continue to live in Northern Ireland if that is the wish). However, I have little doubt that, in fact, most people, including most nationalists, would feel that they have better things to do with their time than worrying about doing that!

Ireland could do well in emulating the South African constitution. I'm in favour of having the rights of children enshrined in the constitution as well as for women to have the right to choose whether they want to have an abortion or not- equality for all, and the catholic church should not be given an 'opt out' clause as they currently have to discriminate against people, it is inherently unjust.

The catholic church is supposed to have no say in the running of the country but unfortunately they still control the majority of schools and hospitals and therefore the government bends over backwards to accommodate them. The reality is that most Irish people just don't identify with the catholic church anymore, so why should they have such a big say?

On the topic of President McAleese being British, does everyone agree that Tony Blair is an Irish citizen?

I think this would be a good place for you guys to carry on these rants in a better context.

http://www.politics.ie/

Archigabe: Agreed! These petty squabbles are a waste of space and are helping no one!

joesoap101 wrote: On the topic of President McAleese being British, does everyone agree that Tony Blair is an Irish citizen?

If his mother was born in the Republic of Ireland - yes he is.

"Justice Minister's first interview - Extracts on Immigration"

This is a political thread- just read the title, but this is clearly lost on archigabe and limey. Furthermore immigration matters are political matters.

If all the topics on here were in the same category as the self-pitty that is EU1 then a large cohort of the people who contribute will leave...

Christophe wrote:

walrusgumble wrote: ... for a nationalist, the actual exercise of taking up an irish passport is, not only to go on holidays (yes british passport if they want) but as a sign that they do not wish to be seen as a british citizen and wish to be seen as part of ireland exlcusively.

That is their right, of course. Moreover, if such a person feels strongly enough about it, he or she is perfectly entitled and able to renounce British citizenship formally (and subsequently to continue to live in Northern Ireland if that is the wish). However, I have little doubt that, in fact, most people, including most nationalists, would feel that they have better things to do with their time than worrying about doing that!

that is true, but until recently (good friday) many nationalists may have failed to actually recognise the state of Northern Ireland (i know it sounds difficult to comprehend considering if one went up their it would be impossible to recognise that it is very much different to the south) as for better things to do than worry about it, do you mean now? or in the past? because if you mean the past,i ask you, what do you actually think the troubles were about? (ok there were many issues there but in essence)

joesoap101 wrote:Ireland could do well in emulating the South African constitution. I'm in favour of having the rights of children enshrined in the constitution as well as for women to have the right to choose whether they want to have an abortion or not- equality for all, and the catholic church should not be given an 'opt out' clause as they currently have to discriminate against people, it is inherently unjust.

The catholic church is supposed to have no say in the running of the country but unfortunately they still control the majority of schools and hospitals and therefore the government bends over backwards to accommodate them. The reality is that most Irish people just don't identify with the catholic church anymore, so why should they have such a big say?

On the topic of President McAleese being British, does everyone agree that Tony Blair is an Irish citizen?

to be fair, many all oireachtas committees , with mr brian lenihan have come up with new proposals on children etc. some irish legal commentators have wrote books on the consitution in comparrision with South Africe. its just a matter of implementing them by a referendum

as for the church yes you are right. but many of these schools and hospitals are now run by management boards by lay people. i agree things should change but it wont be done overnight. it is not as easy as that, sure there are problems with schools spaceage and the state would have to spend milions in buying these schools from the churches. cant imagine the dail asking the people to bear the costs, can you?

joesoap101 wrote:Ireland could do well in emulating the South African constitution. I'm in favour of having the rights of children enshrined in the constitution as well as for women to have the right to choose whether they want to have an abortion or not- equality for all, and the catholic church should not be given an 'opt out' clause as they currently have to discriminate against people, it is inherently unjust.

the irish people have voted on abortion twice. i think that matter has more to do with the individuals moral thinking than what the church has to say about it. (well the second referendum anyway)

out of interest, i have a fair idea what you mean though, but, where in the Constitution does it say that the church has an opt out clause in discriminating against people?

joesoap101 wrote: The Irish language is just about dead. People in the gaeltacht most definitely don’t speak Irish exclusively, that’s just a load of bollocks and everyone knows it!

Didn’t you watch the series of the TG4 reporter travelling through Ireland trying to speak only Irish? Well he was treated with hostility in most places, he was in the depths of the gaeltacht and people didn’t understand him.... I know its hard to accept but the Irish people are not interested in keeping the language alive...

Not really true. He was in places like Killarney and Dublin and Cork and Galway city....not Gaeltacht regions. I believe he was trying to point out that very, very few people outside the Gaeltacht have Irish.

Being a fluent speaker, he'd have no problem speaking with people in the gaeltachtaí.

Also, it's silly to say "the Irish people" have no interest in keeping Irish alive. That's absurd. Are you their spokesperson? In fact, numerous polls have shown that the Irish language is import to many Irish people...it's just that most never picked it up. That doesn't mean they want to see it die out.

Important in the sense that it's a part of the Irish identity.

walrusgumble wrote: as for better things to do than worry about it, do you mean now? or in the past? because if you mean the past,i ask you, what do you actually think the troubles were about? (ok there were many issues there but in essence)

I would submit that the majority of people in Northern Ireland, whatever their political views, nevertheless wanted to get on with their ordinary lives; sadly the state of affairs in Northern Ireland - whatever the causes and whoever might have been responsible - prevented many of them from doing that. That is all I was really meaning, I suppose.

Christophe wrote:

walrusgumble wrote: as for better things to do than worry about it, do you mean now? or in the past? because if you mean the past,i ask you, what do you actually think the troubles were about? (ok there were many issues there but in essence)

I would submit that the majority of people in Northern Ireland, whatever their political views, nevertheless wanted to get on with their ordinary lives; sadly the state of affairs in Northern Ireland - whatever the causes and whoever might have been responsible - prevented many of them from doing that. That is all I was really meaning, I suppose.

that would be a fair enough argument. many were innocent in that crap that went on. many minded there own business.

Dan01 wrote: Not really true. He was in places like Killarney and Dublin and Cork and Galway city....not Gaeltacht regions. I believe he was trying to point out that very, very few people outside the Gaeltacht have Irish.

Indeed, Dublin and Cork are not in Gaeltacht. However, Killarney (not a metropole) and Galway are very close. Galway is always mentioned as the 'capital' of gaeltacht, and it was funny when he 'performed' there.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaeltacht
This cites the amount of people 85.000.

I am not against Gaeltacht, I think the Irish should pursue it as it is part of their culture. But they have to understand that it is not an important part of life in Ireland.