Marrying UK partner resident in Ireland, currently non-EEA stamp 2 permissions

Hi there,

I have a possibly difficult case and I haven't been able to find any info. I have been on Stamp 2 permissions for the last 5 years, living with my UK partner for the entirety of that time. We are thinking about getting married, but I am unsure about how to then remain in Ireland. I know I can get the Stamp 1G post-graduation (I have just finished my PhD), but my field of work has little job opportunities to get a work permit. My partner is eligible for Irish citizenship through his grandparents, but because of the foreign births registration being closed we have no idea how long it will take for him to get his citizenship. I know that before Brexit, we could have applied for the EUfam stamp 4. I am unsure if the new post-Brexit scheme applies because it sounds like it's only for UK nationals who have moved to Ireland after 31 December 2020. So, does anyone know what we would apply for or what paths are open to us? Thanks.

Have your UK partner been exercising EU Treaty rights in Ireland prior to Brexit? If yes, he will still be able to exercising EU treaty rights, which including getting you a WAB Stamp 4 permission once you are married.

See Q17 in the policy document http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Impact-o ... -FAQ's.pdf

I don't know if there's any official documentations on how to apply for this permission, but I presume you would just renew your permission as normal (if you live in Dublin, you should just use the online renewal platform, select Withdrawal Agreement Beneficiary as the renew type, and upload proofs that the your UK partner has been living in Ireland before Brexit, and your marriage certificate, among other usual documents).

Separate to all that Brexit withdrawal agreement saga, have you thought about what areas you want to work in? You can get a Stamp 1G for 24 months (unless you have spent more than 6 years on Stamp 2/1G/1a previously), so you should not have anything to worry about in short term. That 24 months time should be more than sufficient for your UK partner to apply for FBR or for your to get a job.

Thank you for the reply. I was under the impression that the Withdrawal Beneficiary Card will only be in existence until the end of this year, or rather I have to apply by the end of the year to be able to get it. I also understand I can apply as the de facto partner, but I'm not sure how to prove I am his de facto partner.

As for work, it's difficult. I have a PhD in history, but there are no academic jobs, and jobs in heritage are few and far between and often require Irish language skills and a driver's license. Hopefully he can get FBR in that time though if that is how we are going about it, the problem though of course is the backlog with FBR...if they have 30k cases to process and haven't reopened yet, it may well take 2 years. The type of jobs I have work experience in are jobs that I can't get a permit for: banking, customer service, administration, recruitment.

I think the 'end of year' you are talking about is about swapping of IRP cards for existing non-EU family members, which doesn't apply to you, as your current card is not based on EU Treaty rights.

@Obie might be more suited to answer any questions regarding EU Treaty, but the Withdrawal Agreement doesn't just stop at the end of the year. If a UK citizen has been exercising EU Treaty Rights before 1 January 2021, they will retain their rights for life (or when the Withdrawal Agreement is terminated by either UK or EU... wouldn't be surprised if it happens).

You can of course apply as the de-facto partner right away. Just use common sense - how do you convince to a stranger that you have been living with a person for years? You should use bank statements, utility bills etc to prove that you two have been living in the same address for years; you would print out photos together, phone calls / texts over the years, flight tickets/hotel bookings for holidays overseas etc.

I’m following up on this because I still don’t know what to do here. I would rather not risk a de facto application because I heard they are often rejected. My partner and I have been together for 10 years but in terms of proof I don’t know what we could show. We have our rental agreement in both our names but we don’t share a bank account and the bills are in either his name or mine, not both. We haven’t gone on trips much together (only one in 2016) because we’re PhD students and often we spent holidays with our families (me to Canada and him to England). We have photos and texts of course but I don’t know if that would work. So I want to wait until we get married but it won’t be this year. The new scheme for non-EEA families joining UK citizens doesn’t apply to me because I am already resident here.

I’m bumping this again because I still haven’t found an answer. Does anyone know?

"Where you hold a separate immigration permission within the State for the purpose of study or work for example, and then become the spouse, civil partner or de facto partner of a UK citizen, a change of status request may be made to the Department of Justice at the address below:

Unit 5 Domestic Residence and Permissions Division
Immigration Service Delivery
Department of Justice
13-14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2 D02 XK70
Ireland"

https://www.irishimmigration.ie/coming- ... what-to-do

hope this helps!

Thanks for this although it does not really state what I should include in that letter. INIS was also not helpful when I eventually got a reply. They told me I had to be a de facto partner with my partner prior to getting married and then applying for a residence card on the EUTR1A, if that makes sense. Nothing about before the end of January. I still don’t know what to do or what the right answer is. If he was able to get his Irish citizenship within two years it wouldn’t be an issue but with the way the FBR is going, I’m not hopeful.

Why do you not want to apply as a de-facto partner? You said you heard they are often rejected. Where did you hear about it? Do you personally know anyone who is a legitimate couple but got rejected? If you have been together for 10 years and your relationship is genuine, I can't see how your application would be rejected.
Note that even if your application is rejected, it does not negatively affect your eligibility for future applications. They would just say there is no sufficient evidence that you two have been living together.

I heard it anecdotally from other people on this forum, when reading through some other posts. It also requires more evidence that might be difficult to get. We have been living together since 2015, but I wasn’t on the old lease because our landlady messed up, and I’m just worried that even though I have proof we have been living together in our current place for 4 years that they will give me grief. Also, I send him the rent payment but the notice on it is “water rebate” for a weird reason. It just seems like they might try and find some reason to reject it.

I am also concerned about the income stuff on my partner’s end. We both just finished our studies but he has to sponsor me, correct? I’ll have to wait until he has a job, I need one too so I will be applying for the Stamp 1G soon. By the time we find work etc we might be married or have registered our intent to marry, which will have to be in 2022 no matter what now. My worry is that I am unsure if I have to do this before January or not (no one has been able to answer me on this).

On the topic of eligibility as a spouse of UK national for EU Treaty purposes, my understanding is that as long as the UK national lives in Ireland before 31 Dec 2020, he/she should always be able act as a sponsor for his/her non-EU family members, even if they get married to the partner or give birth to their child after that date.

However, from what you said, INIS seems to have a different opinion. I am not sure if they are right, as that seems to contradict with the Withdrawal Agreement.

Maybe it is just the opinion of one INIS staff instead of the Government's legal position. Maybe my interpretation to the Withdrawal Agreement is incorrect. Maybe it will take a court case for it to be explicitly confirmed either way. Who knows.

Onto the de-facto application part, it's up to you but I honestly don't think they would be able to reject a valid application.

I sponsored my partner in 2017-2018 and we had been living together for 4 years in a rented apartment that had my name only. That was not an issue.

We didn't have joint accounts either - we still don't - it just sounds like a stupid idea to share bills like that. She didn't even have a utility bill in her name. That wasn't an issue either.

Of course we have bank statements in separate names and they could show that we were both contributing to daily grocery shoppings, flight/hotel bookings etc together.

We submitted I think some 60 pages of screenshots of SMS/Whatsapp/photos/Facebook check-ins. In my opinion these daily conversations are more prevalent in terms of proving that the relationship is genuine and that we live in the same place. You can redact any private information in your screenshots before submitting them.

I did ask INIS after submitting the de-facto application about whether it would negatively impact my partner's future applications, should this be rejected, and I was told that it wouldn't. Unless they have clear evidence that this is a fraudulent application and was made on purpose, they could only determine whether the application is conclusive or not. Even if it's inconclusive, it would not in any way be linked to your future applications.

CatBrom wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:43 pm

Thanks for this although it does not really state what I should include in that letter. INIS was also not helpful when I eventually got a reply. They told me I had to be a de facto partner with my partner prior to getting married and then applying for a residence card on the EUTR1A, if that makes sense. Nothing about before the end of January. I still don’t know what to do or what the right answer is. If he was able to get his Irish citizenship within two years it wouldn’t be an issue but with the way the FBR is going, I’m not hopeful.

I believe they are some how right, but their response is so muddled up.

If you were in a Defacto relationship prior to December 31 2020, then she can apply as unmarried partner.

If you were not, and you got married after 31-12-2020, then even if you were in Ireland before that time, your wife will not qualify. She falls outwith the withdrawal agreement.

I mean, I suppose it won't matter because for intents and purposes we were living as though we were married (romantic relationship, shared tenancy, sent money back and forth for rent and utilities). But it's very confusing because what if a UK citizen, exercising their treaty rights, met a non-EEA person in Ireland and got married. Then would that person not be able to stay as a result of that marriage even though the UK citizen was exercising their rights? It makes no sense and yet it's sort of what they're saying. I wish they had some clear info somewhere, it's all in confusing bits and pieces and nothing is clear. e

CatBrom wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:42 pm

But it's very confusing because what if a UK citizen, exercising their treaty rights, met a non-EEA person in Ireland and got married.

If a UK citizen meets a non-EU person *after* 31 Dec 2020, the treaty rights cannot be extended to the non-EU national. In such cases, (in all other EU countries) the UK citizen is treated the same way as a non-EU citizen - say for example if a US citizen marries a Canadian citizen in France - both will need to have their own rights to be in the country, and whether one can sponsor the other after marriage depends on the the sponsor's own residence rights, which would be based on the amount of salary they are earning, occupation, whether they hold a certain degree or employment permit etc.

Ireland is probably the only exception in the EU countries as UK citizens are considered permanent residents without any other conditions, so they already have quite a bit of advantage over other non-EU nationals, in terms of requirements regarding employment permits or minimum salary etc, but all in all UK citizens are still considered non-EU nationals after Brexit.

I get that logic, sort of…but if a UK citizen gets to exercise some treaty rights but they don’t necessarily extend to family after a certain date, that seems complicated. Unless it’s possible for a UK citizen to just become naturalized? I’m not sure how that works.

The law essentially protects existing relationships, save for future offspring. The law protects those sexual relationship that existed before exit day.

True. I forgot there is a new visa scheme for UK citizens to bring their families to Ireland as well, if their families were not resident in Ireland.

CatBrom wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:43 pm

Thanks for this although it does not really state what I should include in that letter. INIS was also not helpful when I eventually got a reply. They told me I had to be a de facto partner with my partner prior to getting married and then applying for a residence card on the EUTR1A, if that makes sense. Nothing about before the end of January. I still don’t know what to do or what the right answer is. If he was able to get his Irish citizenship within two years it wouldn’t be an issue but with the way the FBR is going, I’m not hopeful.

You might start with just a letter asking what documentation you would be required to provide. My understanding, is this means you will not need to complete the pre-clearance/scheme that those who would be moving to Ireland would need to do ahead of time.

I imagine that you would really just be requesting a permission change to the appropriate/spousal stamp and would provide the same documentation that would be required were you applying from outside the State. Essentially, just providing the same documentation as outlined here: https://www.irishimmigration.ie/coming- ... what-to-do

My only concern is, like you stated, your UK partner would need to demonstrate that they could sponsor you/that you would not become dependent on the state.

There is a bit more information here: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/g ... tml#l5a1aa

"If you are a UK citizen living in Ireland, you have many of the same rights and entitlements as an Irish citizen. UK citizens can:

Enter Ireland without a visa
Travel between the UK and Ireland
Work without an employment permit
Access the public healthcare system
Vote in general elections
These rights are based on a series of bilateral agreements between Ireland and the UK that started in 1922. You can read more about the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

In May 2019, the Irish and British governments re-affirmed their commitment to maintaining the Common Travel Area.

The Common Travel Area is separate from EU law, and continues to apply since the UK left the EU on 31 January 2020"

In sum, if you were to get married that would be the easiest option, in my opinion, as long as your partner is employed. De facto I think is still an option as long as you had statements sworn under oath that you had been cohabiting, sharing living expense etc. (if you do not have actual proof e.g. a shared utility bill etc.) I might also have both names put on all documents going forward and opening a joint bank account etc. at a minimum, this way, hypothetically, if you stay on Stamp 1G for a year and apply for the De facto at the end of the first year (since applications can take up to 12 months to process)- you would at least have some documentation demonstrating that you have been cohabiting for a year minimum, together with statements/affidavits and any other documentation to support the previous years.

We’re concerned largely now about the sponsorship aspect. He had very little income this year, and cumulative income from the two years prior to this one would not add up to €40k I don’t think. He only just finished his PhD so we need to both find work. He has a lot of money in savings from a few sources (well over €40k), not sure if that would impact the application at all because they do ask on EUTR1A if the sponsor has received any funds that weren’t income (like inheritance and gifts). So I’m unsure if that would help. Other option of course is to wait until he gets his Irish citizenship but FBR hasn’t reopened yet and he’s waiting on his British passport renewal anyway.

Also we have a joint tenancy agreement for our current flat that we’ve been living in since 2017, that should be proof we’ve been cohabiting. Also, I pay the energy bill which he sends me money for, and he covers the internet. And until a few months ago I was sending him money for the rent, which he has now started covering on his own with his savings until I can get a job.

The 40k requirement is for applicants under domestic laws.

You both have been living in Ireland before Brexit, so that does not apply to you. EU Treaty rights apply to you, which do not have a set amount requirement.

You just need to apply for it as soon as possible, as it will be increasingly difficult to convince officers why you did not apply for it in the first place.

Do not wait for his FBR. There is zero chance he would get it in the next year or even two years. Apply for EUTR1A now.

CatBrom wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:20 am

We’re concerned largely now about the sponsorship aspect. He had very little income this year, and cumulative income from the two years prior to this one would not add up to €40k I don’t think. He only just finished his PhD so we need to both find work. He has a lot of money in savings from a few sources (well over €40k), not sure if that would impact the application at all because they do ask on EUTR1A if the sponsor has received any funds that weren’t income (like inheritance and gifts). So I’m unsure if that would help. Other option of course is to wait until he gets his Irish citizenship but FBR hasn’t reopened yet and he’s waiting on his British passport renewal anyway.

So I might have missed something but my understanding is that the income is €20,000.00 as per https://www.irishimmigration.ie/coming- ... what-to-do :

"The WFP does not apply in the case of a married couple, civil partner or de facto partnership where there are no children and consequently a minimum level of assessable income for couples without children is €20,000 per annum, over and above any entitlement to State benefits"

Although this is saying €30,000.00:
"Your spouse or de facto partner, and dependent children can apply to come to Ireland at the end of a 12 month waiting period. You must be earning enough money to support your family. If you have children, the levels of income that are used for qualifying for Working Family Payment are used to determine if you have the required salary.

If you have no children, then you must earn at least €30,000 per year for your spouse or partner to join you in Ireland."

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/m ... cheme.html

Either way, is there a chance your partner would be making this amount by the end of next year? If you move to Stamp 1G and your partner becomes employed while you are on this permission, you would be able to submit their contract for employment which demonstrates their income at these levels.


In regards to the cohabiting and bills: if you highlight that these transfer of funds between you two were for the respective bills, and obtain copies of the bills which should then allow them to see the total amount paid etc. this would demonstrate that this was what the transfers were for (possibly submit a sworn statement to that effect as well). You might also submit statements from people who know you and can attest to your relationship. However, the most important thing I believe they would be looking at is proof you have a genuine relationship and proof you have been cohabiting which I would think a joint lease, utility bills in either name going to the same address would demonstrate (for instance, if you both have bills going to your current flat, regardless if they are not in the both names, it would support the idea that you would not have bills to the same address if you were not living together). You might obtain a statement from your previous landlord as well confirming and attesting that you were living in the previous flat together and were not provided a lease with both names because of an error on the landlord's behalf.

Are you sure that the 40k doesn’t apply? It sounds like it applies for EEA sponsors, surely that applies to UK citizens living here under treaty rights. Does he just need to have a job? If say we got married in a month in Denmark (just as a hypothetical) would we still need to complete the EUTR1A or is it another process? I’m worried now that we’ll get rejected for waiting while we find work.

littlerr wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:32 am

The 40k requirement is for applicants under domestic laws.

You both have been living in Ireland before Brexit, so that does not apply to you. EU Treaty rights apply to you, which do not have a set amount requirement.

You just need to apply for it as soon as possible, as it will be increasingly difficult to convince officers why you did not apply for it in the first place.

Do not wait for his FBR. There is zero chance he would get it in the next year or even two years. Apply for EUTR1A now.

I am not sure how they get in under EUTR1A if they were residing in the State on separate permissions prior to 31 December 2020 i.e. OP was in the State on a Stamp 2 and not dependent on their partner (de facto/spouse) prior to 31 December 2020 so therefore was not a "family member" prior to 31 December 2020?